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narrow vowels without sounding "hooty"

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m.i.r.

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Getting high in the mix and into full head voice. When I was originally finding my spots for these notes, I went extemely narrow almost covered for security. Then added more width to brighten it up, and take away that "amateurish" sound, as Robert calls it. So I would say I ended up on a 70/30 split wide/narrow that has never really changed since I landed there.

Is there a way to have the security blanket and ease of a narrowed vowel up high, without having the negative sound that comes with it(like pure narrow not a hybrid). From my studies and experience I am un aware of a way thus far.

I also dont believe its possible to bring in proper twang without widening the vowel. Which seems like the obvious reason one of the down falls of staying completely narrow up top is hootiness.

Not really having problems with my current methods, though always interested in find better methods through debate.

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Do your belting workout routines in "Pillars" and you will grow in your musculature to articulate narrowed vowels better on higher frequencies... IF that is what you want to do. 

 

There is always this big interest in maintaining narrowed vowels on high notes as if the lyrics doesn't sound like speech all the time, then some how its not as good... I just don't agree. Every narrowed vowel in a lyric does NOT have to be articulated narrowly in singing!  People that think that way, in my opinion, have more to learn about sound colors in singing.  You don't want to modify and widen every narrowed vowel either.  Just get stronger with good CT strength building and some "pulls" and you'll get it.  

 

Some of the new belting routines in "Pillars" and a lesson with me will show you how to work the narrowed vowels... how to find their resonance if thats your thing.

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M.I.R.,

 

Try doing an exercise where on one comfortable note you begin to sing a nice open "ah." .

 

Now that you're shaped for an "ah" (the rounded sounding "ah") 2 seconds later very gradually mentally (don't physically, intentionally manipulate to the "ee") turn it mentally into an "ee."

 

Let the upturn in the tongue (that you didn't intentionally do, your mind did it) help become the "ee." keep the openness that made the "ah."  Don't close down on the "ah" when it turns into an "ee."

 

It will likely feel like the tone is shooting almost straight up.  If you want, once you have the "ee" (from the position of the "ah") you can (hard to explain ) bite down on top of it a little and you'll feel some twang kicking in which will add some additional brightness if you wanted.

 

Hope I've helped.

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@ Bob... 

 

Cool Bob... Yes... do this with a static embouchure, preferably a horizontal orientation so that you also get the benefit of amplifying the oral cavity more... it makes you louder and you get the benefit of more 'belty' color in the sound.  Holding the embouchure static as Bob is suggesting teachers your body to "throat shape" the vowels... or it teaches the body to calibrate the articulators to tune to the vowels without moving the jaw bone too much... it makes vowel formation more efficient and builds coordination of your articulators. You can actually do this and rotate through a series of vowels... holding the jaw steady and trying to tune to the vowels by using only your intrinsic musculature and tongue. For example.

 

eh  > a  > ee  > ah  > aw  > ou  > uh  > oo 

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narrow vowels and doing hooty exercises are 2 different things. Finding the "hoot" in exercises like goo and gee or sirens is a TOOL (remember this) to help you release into head voice if you are getting stuck. Narrowing a vowel when you are singing helps with changing the formant so a pitch does not get to squeezed or pushed and ends up being slightly flat. it releases the tightness. however taking a narrow vowel like oo all the way to your top high notes gets tight as well so one could release the oo to a more rounded oh up there which is opposite of narrow.  also keep in mind the intensity at which you are singing because the rules change slightly with each intensity.

 

id also like to add once you can get the narrower vowel feeling good in your range you work to get the pure vowel in there through practice and skill level. gradually

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I think maybe I shouldn't have used the word "hooty"...maybe more of a covered sound....not as powerful...less cut..not sure best way to describe it.

The keeping the vowels quite wide as video described, and a close to smile on the embouchure as robert describes. That is something I have done for some time and what is muscle memory now. I really havent had any issues with this at all, and has proven very reliable.

I guess maybe trying to rephrase my question, as I had just gotten home last night and was typing in my sleep. These methods of working in the high mix and head, equals more of a "screaming" hair metalish i dunno how to describe for me. Is there any methods I am un aware of to bring more modal voice warmth into that area?

For example, I am subbing in a cover band i have never worked with before next month for 4 shows. In rehearsal, there was a note section that went to c5, d5, a4, f5, g5. They asked if I could do that section less "metalish" and more "belty", which translated to me, more warmth and modal like.

I could go to a b flat in a modal sound, however in that run I stayed in my more heady configuration to keep from possible cracks and other ugly stuff from switching back and forth back and forth.

Hope this question makes sense, its a bit hard to find the right way to ask.

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Hope this question makes sense, its a bit hard to find the right way to ask.

 

Off topic a bit here, but I think this is one reason a defined "Methodology" to work with can help... among other things, arguably more important... a program that is developed enough in this fashion teaches you a language or "talk-track" you can use to explain what it is your trying to do with your voice. Having a language and terms that explain all these details we wrestle with only serves to be helpful, once you learn it. 

 

 

 

These methods of working in the high mix and head, equals more of a "screaming" hair metalish i dunno how to describe for me. Is there any methods I am un aware of to bring more modal voice warmth into that area?

 

No, techniques where you work in high mix (what ever you actually mean by that), and head voice, (which is really just a visual metaphor) do not = "screaming" hair metal sounds... be careful about making sweeping conclusions about any major vocal training method or teacher, predicated on what YOU are doing with  it or the sounds that you are making during your development. 

 

I feel like I know what your talking about or asking for... you need to work on your bottom-up, belty musculature to strengthen CT, vocalis, compression, etc... the intrinsic musculature for that AND... seek to amplify better formants and resonate better for more chest color. It is not the vocal program, certainly wouldn't be mine, that neglects to address these issues or provide content and detailed instruction on how to get the sounds I believe you are hinting at. M.I.R.... do you have "Pillars"... if you did or you do, get in front of me in a lesson and Ill show you what you can do to get stronger modal voice on higher frequencies... it mostly boils down to just learning how to use the content, how to train with it. 

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Robert I was insulting no ones system, and I have no system at the time. A sample is worth 1000 words. I did this real quick on my phone in the car while "working". But hopefully it will get across my question.

The first part is the end part of my "modal mix" or whatever the hell you wanna call it. The second part is head voice. My question, is there a way to bridge the two better, get the head voice more modalish. Some styles enjoy that heady sound, other styles ask you to "be more belty". It would be awesome to bring more modal up, or more even head tone down blended.

https://app.box.com/s/wwa01qrm613devrzgglti1neyfqwgnw4

And here is a quick clip of "locking" into modal, slightly covering to prevent the jump into more heady stuff. It works for this style, but not for all. As you can tell really working for more flexibility and options. I posted this up as a mic test before, but it is a good example for this conversation. https://app.box.com/s/vjo99kirhb6t6rnopwyo4yg7hhinia8p

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? M.I.R.... I didn't feel like you were insulting anyone's system. I was only trying point out that we have to 1st, look in the mirror when judging sound colors and results with any teacher and/or system... just reminding you of that is all... I didn't feel you were being negative or anything. Im in the recording studio right now on a bad connection, Ill try to listen to this later tonight if I get a chance... I would like to hear it. 

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Robert I was insulting no ones system, and I have no system at the time. A sample is worth 1000 words. I did this real quick on my phone in the car while "working". But hopefully it will get across my question.

The first part is the end part of my "modal mix" or whatever the hell you wanna call it. The second part is head voice. My question, is there a way to bridge the two better, get the head voice more modalish. Some styles enjoy that heady sound, other styles ask you to "be more belty". It would be awesome to bring more modal up, or more even head tone down blended.

https://app.box.com/s/wwa01qrm613devrzgglti1neyfqwgnw4

And here is a quick clip of "locking" into modal, slightly covering to prevent the jump into more heady stuff. It works for this style, but not for all. As you can tell really working for more flexibility and options. I posted this up as a mic test before, but it is a good example for this conversation. https://app.box.com/s/vjo99kirhb6t6rnopwyo4yg7hhinia8p

The first sample did not sound catty, to me.

 

In the second sample, are we confusing "heady" for a cleaner tone? I think they can be two different things.

 

And while not wanting to derail the technical part of the discussion, what Robert is talking about with articulation and placement, in so many words (forgive my paraphrasing) is part of what I mean about singing being an "illusion." What you hear and what we hear can be two different things. And more accurately, what you "think" you are doing and what we hear with our own ears and perspectives may differ. So, which is the illusion?

 

Point being, with a bit of technique that avoids becoming fatigued, you can sound "modal" whether you are actually doing a "modal" thing or not.

 

In simple redneck terms, go for the sound, by hook or by crook, meaning, whatever technique that gets you the sound and is repeatable and non-damaging.

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Do you mean my inner hearing?? I learned a long time ago not to trust that. However, if you mean my actually ears from hearing recordings...that may be so. In answer to your question which one is the illusion...I would trust someone elses ear over my own, especially a trained ear. I will always have bias towards myself.

There are two different people I have noticed in music. People whom think they sound amazing no matter what for their ego. Or the type whom are their own worst critics no matter the performance. Unfortunally I am the latter.

I did however from this convo back and forth figure out I was reverting back to a bad habit of using a little too much throat. Letting the body stay a little bit too limp. A habit that creeps up every once in a while even when I try and look for it. So that helped tighten up my tone a bit more.

I make posts like this with random loaded questions because I feel there is something still slightly off. I run a mechanics firm as a day job right now, so I will compare it to a car.

Its like a car that runs good, drives good, and for all appearances is well. However, it is running slightly lean. It prob wont cause any damage for some time. However, over time you risk scorching a valve, a ring, detonation ect ect. That is how I feel about my voice at this point in my career. I would like to find what that small thing is before it causes damage one day. Or I could be acting as a hypochondriac....who knows lol

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Hey m.i.r. just listened to your samples. Sounds like you are doing something weird with your tongue, kind of like an "errr sound" if that makes sense? It's very apparent in the first clip. You seem to have a tendency to do that as you get higher in your range.

 

In the 2nd clip the 1st phrase "You are cold as ice" is good but on "willing to sacrifice our love" I hear that same thing creeping in and you start sounding like a cartoon character. Can you hear it?

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Yea I think I know exactly what you are talking about. It creeps up so quiet even when I know to watch out for it, very annoying. It finally catches my attention, i fix it till it returns again. Guess I really need to watch for it. Not sure really what causes it, I know whenever i fix what I fixed today it improves along with overall tone. (Little tight throat and little lazy body)

Even with that mostly fixed I still have always had some sort of tounge issues. It seems mainly with pronunciation if we are talking about the same thing. Even with that one issue fixed I still will pick up hints of it. Only on certain phrases. I dont particularly hear it on the house of rising sun bit, unless I am missing it. However in the first link, I was just saying the phrase "random words" or something like that. I did feel off with that. Same with your as cold as ice, that feels just fine. But the sacrifice part, I can tell there is something I dont like about that. Though the actual notes are basically the same.

Even with cleaning up some stuff, Its still there a bit, I can hear it, and this has been an issue since day one. Just some things sound off when accending on certain phrases. You may be on to something sexy....this could be my thing that is really bugging me when I think about it. Some songs I can kill and sound like I deserve to be paid to sing, others always just have something off..something that just doesnt sound up to par...acceptable but it just doesnt have that "it"...has to be something I am doing with the phrasing(I think). However, I really dont know how to rectify it as of now.

Thanks for the honest opinion..no one wants to hear they sound like a cartoon character, however, brutal honesty is the only way to really fix crap. Now just have to figure out the underlying cause and how to fix it Lol

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Ha ha ha....ok ok...gonna have to start calling you mr Miami from your avatar photo lol.

Please no need for apology Mr. Miami, I am the type of person that would rather have someone tell me my fly is down, than walk around all day with a gaping hole in my pants. I really do value blunt criticism. And if I didnt think some thing was off this thread wouldnt even exist. So I am all ears to many different thoughts and ideas.

I think this may really be the issue that is bugging me so. I just need to really figure out what is actually happening. Though I am still trying to translate errr lol. I just keep thinking of tony the tiger for some reason

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Hmmm... Wish I could hear in your head what you are hearing exactly. When I think of tongue retraction I think of heavy covering, muffled sound, and stomped out high end. Kind of like someone trying to sound like an opera singer but in a cheesy over exaggerated way.

I am thinking it could be an old opera habit popping up. Trying to stop the voice from flipping away from the modal sound like it wants to. This is just me kinda guessing into what you are hearing. Where is a shining moment when you need it

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Am I a mean person if I don't mention the open fly and let the embarrassment continue for my own amusement? :lol:

 

Anyway, so from my management experience, people get old and fall apart. Trucks get old and fall apart. It is inevitable, though, even with the best of training, you can last for quite some time.

 

But our destiny remains the same. To quote Scott Stapp, "maybe six feet ain't so far down."

 

Now that I have cheered everyone up, I do get what you are saying that at least having different perspectives might point you to a thing that needs changing. Or not.

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Hmmm... Wish I could hear in your head what you are hearing exactly. When I think of tongue retraction I think of heavy covering, muffled sound, and stomped out high end. Kind of like someone trying to sound like an opera singer but in a cheesy over exaggerated way.

 

m.i.r go to 0:45 here I think this is the sound I'm hearing:

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@m.i.r

 

First of all, how do you define a narrow vowel?

 

If you mean the area where the constriction is greatest in the vocal tract, then you are right, that you are "limited" in regards to intensity if you are not using a "hybrid vowel" (if I have understood you correctly). 

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