review my singing Silent Lucidity - Queensryche - cover for review

[Robert Lunte]

Ron...

 

1). Experience as a voice coach. Many years, thousands of students.

2). Published: blogs, books, video productions.

3). Innovation in new vocal ideas and understanding of common ones.

4). Ability to PROPERLY explain what your talking about and demonstrate it. 

5). An understanding of the fundamental physiology and acoustics of singing.

6). Master Class experience and teacher of teachers.

7). A Master's Degree in Music from the University of Miami and over 15 years of private study from renown coaches. 

8). A proven demonstration and ability to sing well.

 

These are a few things that would characterize the resume and experience of someone that could rightfully call themselves an "expert" in the practice of voice technique training and song coaching for singers.

[Joe Naab]

I am disappointed that Robert deleted that portion of my comment that dealt with you having a vocal course because it's an important point that I made.

Your intentions to offer a lower priced alternative to more expensive courses may be noble, but in the end you hurt the business overall by offering a sort of "Made in China" knockoff. It lessens the market value for more qualified teachers and more comprehensive courses. It also makes people less likely to buy courses from myself, Robert, Ken, Brett etc. because they see a lower price. They get the course, realize it's not out together by a professional teacher and they become disillusioned about buying vocal courses from anyone else. Cheaper doesn't equal better - just as more expensive doesn't equal quality. To offer a course for money, one MUST be an expert in that chosen field - be good at it and able to demonstrate it effectively.

Interpretation is fine and actually necessary for a singer to grow. As an example; Frank Sinatra was the King of interpretation in terms of his phrasing, and arrangements of songs but the overall emotional intent of the song always remained.

If you wanted to really interpret "Silent Lucidity" differently, you have to use different music. Singing some wild interpretation over a karaoke track of the original song simply makes it too opposite.

Hi Kevin, thanks again for your contribution. I hope Robert doesn't mind, but I'd like to post the portion that was deleted, because it didn't bother me at all, and it's now part of the discussion, so it's relevant. And I very much appreciate and respect your concern.

This was deleted for a reason, probably cause it was not fair and the start of a big argument and shit throwing. So ask a Rob or an other mod before repositing deleted comments.

/Jens mod@TMV 

 

 Kevin, here's where I'd like to begin, because you and Robert are not seeing the glaring flaw in your arguments, which is simply this:

You don't know me! You don't know what I know about the voice and about vocal training, vocal health and vocal safety. You've never taken my course or probably even watched a tiny sample of how I teach. You don't know my business model, my experience as a student of the voice, how I train, how often I train, why I do the exercises I do and in the order I do them. You don't even know why I chose to price my products the way I do. You know nothing about me. Can we at least agree on that much?

So how in the world can either of you make judgements as to the quality and value of what I'm offering and how I go about it? Can't you see how silly this sounds? You're projecting your experiences with other people and other offerings onto me. You're committing the logical fallacies of false assumption and hasty generalization. It's not fair and it doesn't make any sense. And as awesomely funny as the phrase, "Made in China Knockoff" is, how could you possibly know this?

I don't want to elaborate too much, but I have extensive experience in the fields of coaching and teaching, albeit with other subject matter. I'm a successful entrepreneur and coach entrepreneurs. I succeed at what I do because I care so much about doing it right. I've immersed myself in many of the best online courses out there and have read copious amounts of articles and books. I train 2-4 hours per day, 5-7 days per week. I spent 2014 taking two semesters of opera training from two of the best coaches and opera singers in all of Brazil. Each of them said I learned and improved at a rate they had never seen before. Their students are some of the best singers in the region.

And, get this, I'm lining them up to eventually offer online skype lessons to my future students. They love what I know and what I'm teaching. They love me! They think it will be the perfect complimentary tool for what they are doing. They are presently professional singers with gorgeous voices. They perform lead roles in theater and opera at the best venues in South America, and one of them internationally. They are extraordinary teachers. I'm lining others up, too, but this is all new and they won't be needed for some time, still.

All I'm asking, as I respect you and Robert and what you've accomplished, is to give me a chance, withhold judgement until you know me and my approach to teaching. It will take a year or more to slowly grow an audience and build out my content. All will get even better over that time. It's slow going because I have other work to do (that pays) and I do all the development myself,-video, audio, graphics, fonts, web design, articles, membership & LMS & payment plugins, marketing, advertising, social media, blah blah blah. It's a major undertaking for me and I'm happy to do it because this is my love in life and I feel that the world of singers and voice actors need another man like me. I don't know what else to say.

[Joe Naab]

Yes, which has become a huge problem in our industry in the last 2-3 years. So many "me-too" voice coaches that honestly, simply don't know hardly anything about how the singing voice works, let alone how to train it and demonstrate it. We have entered into a new era of over saturation of under and unqualified internet teachers looking to make a buck. And the people that are hurt the most are the students, first and foremost, and good quality professionals that are losing the incentive to even continue with all this "noise" going on.

Robert, some of your comments here leave me stratching my head more than Kevin's. You and I had a fun, animated, intelligent conversation about vocal training for 90 minutes by phone last month when I was disclosing my new professional project to you before buying your course, so you could have the opportunity to ask me not to buy it! I did this because of how much I respect you guys who have been on the front line for decades.

You're awesome. I'm loving your course. Give me a chance. You might discover that I'm awesome, too, just a little more green, but not the slightest bit unqualified to do what I do. I know my limits and I want to enter this field respectfully. And I'm from Seattle, and I'll be home in June, and we're going to be friends whether you like it or not! :-)

[Joe Naab]

    Joe, The vocals sound great. I just want to make a quick comment on the "singing vs Training/Coaching " thing.

    There are a lot of choices in the singing aspect that have nothing to do with Training/Coaching. Prosody, Rhythm, vocal punctuation, inflection, choice of vocal weight, diction, To scream/distort, woofy growl or fry, Soft voice, full voice, staccato, legato ..........   All of these are artistic choices. A guide for making these decisions are not usually a part of training. Maybe they should be if one is going to call themselves a "Singing" coach. But it is not necessary for a "Vocal" coach.

    These choices are up to the singer. A singer can make bad choices on these things and still have perfect control of their instrument and the ability to train and Teach others to make Healthy, Solid, Beautiful Sounds.

    Training to have the ability to sound like Janis Joplin or Celine Dion does not mean that everyone is going to accept the choice that you made between the two on a given song.

Thank you so much. I wanted to add that I didn't know how serious some take the submissions here. I'm here as a student wanting to get better.  Obviously, I'm limited to using published karoake tracks, so my style may have to clash with what I have at my disposal. It was really posted for the purpose of what you wrote, for some feedback on choices, tone/timbre, and for any glaring abnomolies that I might be blind to.

I truly can sing this song so many different ways, including more like the original. But I'm not an impersonator nor do I desire to sing in a tribute band. I deliberately train to alter the original performance as a way to refine my own voice and style and to decorate the bed track with the melodies, rhythm and mood that I'm "channeling", so to speak. This is what I love to do. I underestimated how upset it would make some people here.

[Joe Naab]

I wanted to add one more post here to respond to these other great comments, especially from Youcansinganything and MDEW, and so that I don't bury your inboxes.

I'm an amateur singer who works very hard at it now and dreams of having an amazing voice within a couple years. I still make lots of mistakes across the board. That's why I came here and paid to share and receive feedback. If I were already awesome, I wouldn't be here!

25 years ago I studied SLS in L.A. weekly for 18 months and barely improved. I worked insanely hard at it. I grew discouraged and stopped studying, though always sang at home for the next 25 years while building a different profession. A few years ago I recommitted to vocal studies and began to find all kinds of great things that worked on my voice the way I needed it to. So I stopped everything in life and immersed myself into it. It's been miraculous. I'm literally better each day than the day before. And instead of my rate of improvement slowing over time, it's now accelerating because of how I've customized my own training practice.

My mission in life now is to create an amazing training program as if I could send it back in time to my younger self so he could fulfill his dream much sooner in life. Since I can't do that, I'm targeting young people, beginners, 13-25 years old, who want to sing strong-voiced pop/rock/theater, with an emphasis on developing their own, unique signature sound and expression. I'm more than happy to, as Youcansinganything wrote above, refer them to great private instruction when the situation calls for it. I'm already planning to refer any Seattle students to Robert, for example.

And though I'm still horribly insecure about my singing voice, I'm not the slightest bit concerned about my ability to teach vocal training. I'm good at it and getting better quickly.

And in reading Robert's list of criteria to be considered an "expert coach", I realized that this is impossible to achieve, without first being a non-expert coach, right? It's logical. I'm a non-expert coach. I can almost already check off items 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 (jury is out on 7!). And to get to #1 and #6, you have to start somewhere, right? And I don't think you need thousands of students, maybe hundreds would suffice, and I'm not sure if I'll ever do private lessons or performance coaching. I'd love to hold workshops one day, but I learned from my executive coaching experience that I don't like to have a lot of appointments blocked out in my weekly schedule. An "all day Saturday" thing twice a month would suit me best. We'll see.

And, finally, I'm here to make new friends with people who love to sing and to teach others how to train their voices. All of you have been great. Thanks again.

[ronws]

Yes, Robert, those are all good qualifications and to reply to Jens, I would say that you are one of the few that has the requirements I listed that might be required. College training, respect of peers and voice pros (not just other singers but docs who rehab others), and a few other assorted accoutrement.

Of course, as an expert, you will find others questioning your expertise and wisdom. I could be considered an expert in my own field, which does not stop someone barely able to operate a light switch from thinking they are equal in understanding and skill and the sheer weight of experience I have. Nor do I think that my qualifications mean that I know everything. I just know more than any number of people who have not had my experience, study, licensing, etc.

 

[Robert Lunte]

Ron... oh ya... add to that, a Mastered degree in music from the University of Miami & over 12 years of private study with 5 different, coaches.... I forgot some stuff on my resume. Anyways...

@Joe Naab

Please don't lump me into Kevin's sentiments. I believe he makes very honest, tough love insights and I won't argue with him either... but if you read my posts, I never directed them at you. You can infer and imply that I was, but the fact remains, I never did. My comments were in general terms, in regards to the industry, not you personally with the exception of my feedback on your recording, which is solid. 

Yes, you make a good point. Nobody knows you well enough to be too presumptuous about what they think they know about you. Sure, you can hang your hat on that. Fine. I will also point out, you seem to be patient and cool headed.

Don't forget, I deleted comments from Kevin's initial post for reasons that I felt were the right thing to do, so let that stand as my disposition toward you personally. But do NOT infer that my comments about the industry in general are directed toward you, because they were not. 

In the meantime, let's hear that Silent Lucidity again, with better rhythm and pitch.

[Kevin Richards]

Joe - "Methinks thou protest too much". Your VERY long answer is a perfect indication you're not as sure footed as you'd want us to all believe. Your long list of supposed accomplishments

You see Joe, I DO know what you teach as I bought your course under another name. I have every vocal course on the market. Why? No the competition. I have a pretty good idea what you know in terms of depth of knowledge on the subject. How you sing is also a glaring indication of your overall abilities. The choices you made artistically show me a lot.

Understand that this is our livelihood and we are constantly having to answer for people like yourself who feel they can just put out product because they can. If you're going to step in our ballpark, be prepared to play against heavy hitters.

Robert and I were both teachers for many years before deciding to create courses for the public. We spent a long time learning the craft of teaching, creating a methodology and gaining experience with people. I don't see that from you.

So you took a couple of courses and have read some books. And...? How many students have you taught consistently for at least 2-3 years? What is your methodology? Your pedagogy on voice?

You see, Robert and I are trying to raise the bar on training singers but someone with your inexperience trying to step into our profession raises huge red flags. You don't understand the business, and it is a business. You're not comprehending what you're doing to the profession overall.

Robert and myself commenting the way we are is not personal. It's business. Our business. Any new kind on the block is going to scrutinized and forced to prove they have the muster. Frankly, I don't see it. Yet.

You should stay below the radar, teaching students regularly for a few years, gaining experience, gaining insight - before going anywhere near trying to teach the public. Having taken a few courses and having read some books simply isn't enough. Myself and Robert were students of voice for at least 20 years before putting out product. You're jumping in water way over your head at this point

Take a step back and reassess.

[Felipe Carvalho]

I took a listen and honestly I did not like it.

In my opinion, you did not just change the song, it seems more you had a vague notion of how it went and then just did whatever in top of it. The two major problems are in regards to rhythm and the mix itself, vocals are dry on top of the track.

I don't know if you are not used to the style, but my suggestion would be, before changing the song, learning it. And if you want to make big changes, you have to make it your own (as in, you will learn the whole thing, drums, bass, guitars, keys, backing vocals, everything that is in there, you should be able to recall and know how it goes). Its a hell of a lot of work, in my opinion too much just to cover a song.

 

Now, in regards to comments made, in special by user KevinRichards, don't take it so seriously, the guy had a video a few years ago which I don't know if he took down from his acc (and should) where he was doing something like 90+ takes on his own song and it still sounded awful.

Even the demonstrations that you can find from him on youtube are full of tensions that totally messes up tonal quality, problems with melody and intonation, confusion in regards to falsetto and head voice, etc.

 

But do aim to set the bar higher, and be honest about what you can teach, if you don't control the quality you deliver, who will? Its way easier than having to defend yourself. If you need help with this style add me on skype, lets chat sometime.

[MDEW]

   Hey Joe, I came into this thread in mid discussion. I did listen to your clip but I did not read all of the posts that came before the Singer vs Coach issue. Just enough to get the jist of things.

   Most of the time here the reviews are based on where a person is in his training, and that seems to have been the general review standpoint at the beginning of this thread. If there are no major faults in pitch and tone then focus ends up on presentation: if things seem odd or something just doesn't "Click" for some reason.

   There was no mention that you had a program or anything(in the beginning), But, for some reason those who do(have a program or teach), end up getting a more detailed critique. Other members and a few on line coaches have given lessons while they themselves are still in training. I do not see why that should have been brought up to begin with.

   I also find myself having issues with a reinterpretation of a famous song. That kind of bugs me a little because I also will change a song to fit my personality and style. The problem is not usually of reinterpretation but that the new melody/tone/emotion does not fit with the musical background.

   When working on a song I will often search for how others have presented the song. See/hear what works in my opinion and what doesn't. When you find the same song presented by different artists you will discover that almost everything has changed in one degree or another. From instruments to drum beat/tempo to the melody itself. When it is good, everything fits together and seems as one unit. When it is bad there are inconsistencies.

 

    I am not sure where I was going with this......... too many starts and stops while typing............ anyway welcome to the forum and I look forward to hearing more of your interpretations.

[Joe Naab]

Joe - "Methinks thou protest too much". Your VERY long answer is a perfect indication you're not as sure footed as you'd want us to all believe. Your long list of supposed accomplishments

You see Joe, I DO know what you teach as I bought your course under another name. I have every vocal course on the market. Why? No the competition. I have a pretty good idea what you know in terms of depth of knowledge on the subject. How you sing is also a glaring indication of your overall abilities. The choices you made artistically show me a lot.

Understand that this is our livelihood and we are constantly having to answer for people like yourself who feel they can just put out product because they can. If you're going to step in our ballpark, be prepared to play against heavy hitters.

Robert and I were both teachers for many years before deciding to create courses for the public. We spent a long time learning the craft of teaching, creating a methodology and gaining experience with people. I don't see that from you.

So you took a couple of courses and have read some books. And...? How many students have you taught consistently for at least 2-3 years? What is your methodology? Your pedagogy on voice?

You see, Robert and I are trying to raise the bar on training singers but someone with your inexperience trying to step into our profession raises huge red flags. You don't understand the business, and it is a business. You're not comprehending what you're doing to the profession overall.

Robert and myself commenting the way we are is not personal. It's business. Our business. Any new kind on the block is going to scrutinized and forced to prove they have the muster. Frankly, I don't see it. Yet.

You should stay below the radar, teaching students regularly for a few years, gaining experience, gaining insight - before going anywhere near trying to teach the public. Having taken a few courses and having read some books simply isn't enough. Myself and Robert were students of voice for at least 20 years before putting out product. You're jumping in water way over your head at this point

Take a step back and reassess.

Kevin, I do very much appreciate your feedback, and, yes, I'm already taking a step back to reassess. I reassess all the time.

However, I do ask you to be honest. I know for certain that you didn't sign up for my free course before you made your first post, under any name. There were no signups between posting the song and your post. I'm not even promoting the site anywhere as it's still in early development. I also know that you didn't take the paid course. Also, my site is still in beta and I've only posted about 10% of the content I plan to shoot over the coming year.

And, remember, I was under the radar here until you posted publicly that I had a course. No one here would know of my project if you hadn't brought it up in this thread.

Kevin, I had to come back to edit this. You actually said you bought my course. Why would say that when you didn't?

[Joe Naab]

Ron... oh ya... add to that, a Mastered degree in music from the University of Miami & over 12 years of private study with 5 different, coaches.... I forgot some stuff on my resume. Anyways...

@Joe Naab

Please don't lump me into Kevin's sentiments. I believe he makes very honest, tough love insights and I won't argue with him either... but if you read my posts, I never directed them at you. You can infer and imply that I was, but the fact remains, I never did. My comments were in general terms, in regards to the industry, not you personally with the exception of my feedback on your recording, which is solid. 

Yes, you make a good point. Nobody knows you well enough to be too presumptuous about what they think they know about you. Sure, you can hang your hat on that. Fine. I will also point out, you seem to be patient and cool headed.

Don't forget, I deleted comments from Kevin's initial post for reasons that I felt were the right thing to do, so let that stand as my disposition toward you personally. But do NOT infer that my comments about the industry in general are directed toward you, because they were not. 

In the meantime, let's hear that Silent Lucidity again, with better rhythm and pitch.

Sorry, Robert. I did think, in the context of all the posts, that you were directing your comments at me. My bad. Your feedback was spot on and great.

I'm thinking I may record a different song to post here to "clear the palette", so to speak, and to give you guys a taste of something else.

[Kevin Richards]

Kevin, I do very much appreciate your feedback, and, yes, I'm already taking a step back to reassess. I reassess all the time.

However, I do ask you to be honest. I know for certain that you didn't sign up for my free course before you made your first post, under any name. There were no signups between posting the song and your post. I'm not even promoting the site anywhere as it's still in early development. I also know that you didn't take the paid course. Also, my site is still in beta and I've only posted about 10% of the content I plan to shoot over the coming year.

And, remember, I was under the radar here until you posted publicly that I had a course. No one here would know of my project if you hadn't brought it up in this thread.

Joe,
your site and course have been known to coaches for a while. Long before your post. Remember, its OUR business so we are constantly seeking out any and all new competition. I just helped Robert squash a coach in Singapore for saying they could teach his TVS methodology when they had no permission to do so. If coaches are out there online, I find them. I'm quite good at it being that I was in IT for close to 10 years before teaching voice.

[Joe Naab]

Joe,your site and course have been known to coaches for a while. Long before your post. Remember, its OUR business so we are constantly seeking out any and all new competition. I just helped Robert squash a coach in Singapore for saying they could teach his TVS methodology when they had no permission to do so. If coaches are out there online, I find them. I'm quite good at it being that I was in IT for close to 10 years before teaching voice.

Kevin, the site just went up. I've never sold a course. That's how I know you didn't buy one! It's brand new. Look at the social media pages. They're empty. The first youtube videos went up two weeks ago. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

My course is so new and unpromoted, that only a few people have signed up for even the free course, and I know who they are. You may have signed up, but you didn't watch the videos, because I've just checked the viewing history of the videos, and I'm certain that you didn't see any of them. Maybe you watched the introduction video, but I can tell for certain from the data that you didn't watch a single course video.

[Jens]

I took a listen and honestly I did not like it.

In my opinion, you did not just change the song, it seems more you had a vague notion of how it went and then just did whatever in top of it. The two major problems are in regards to rhythm and the mix itself, vocals are dry on top of the track.

I don't know if you are not used to the style, but my suggestion would be, before changing the song, learning it. And if you want to make big changes, you have to make it your own (as in, you will learn the whole thing, drums, bass, guitars, keys, backing vocals, everything that is in there, you should be able to recall and know how it goes). Its a hell of a lot of work, in my opinion too much just to cover a song.

 

Now, in regards to comments made, in special by user KevinRichards, don't take it so seriously, the guy had a video a few years ago which I don't know if he took down from his acc (and should) where he was doing something like 90+ takes on his own song and it still sounded awful.

Even the demonstrations that you can find from him on youtube are full of tensions that totally messes up tonal quality, problems with melody and intonation, confusion in regards to falsetto and head voice, etc.

 

But do aim to set the bar higher, and be honest about what you can teach, if you don't control the quality you deliver, who will? Its way easier than having to defend yourself. If you need help with this style add me on skype, lets chat sometime.

hmm.

[Kevin Richards]

I took a listen and honestly I did not like it.

In my opinion, you did not just change the song, it seems more you had a vague notion of how it went and then just did whatever in top of it. The two major problems are in regards to rhythm and the mix itself, vocals are dry on top of the track.

I don't know if you are not used to the style, but my suggestion would be, before changing the song, learning it. And if you want to make big changes, you have to make it your own (as in, you will learn the whole thing, drums, bass, guitars, keys, backing vocals, everything that is in there, you should be able to recall and know how it goes). Its a hell of a lot of work, in my opinion too much just to cover a song.

Now, in regards to comments made, in special by user KevinRichards, don't take it so seriously, the guy had a video a few years ago which I don't know if he took down from his acc (and should) where he was doing something like 90+ takes on his own song and it still sounded awful.

Even the demonstrations that you can find from him on youtube are full of tensions that totally messes up tonal quality, problems with melody and intonation, confusion in regards to falsetto and head voice, etc.

But do aim to set the bar higher, and be honest about what you can teach, if you don't control the quality you deliver, who will? Its way easier than having to defend yourself. If you need help with this style add me on skype, lets chat sometime.

1. Show ME where I am confused on falsetto and head voice. Show me. Do it.  Because I'm not.

2. The video you reference was me in the recording studio singing AC/DC (not my own song) and its a reference vocal for the band not the final take AND you're hearing my voice in a dead environment and without the musical reference to what I'm singing. Get your facts straight.

3. I've appeared on numerous radio jingles, sang to over 50,000 in the Summer of 1996 on a tour of Asia and Europe opening for "Royal Hunt", have sung on numerous Grammy producers demos - and none of them have ever caught on that I sing tense, have problems with melody, intonation or tonality. Strange isn't it?

My critique and further comments for Joe were fair. Some may be uncomfortable for others to read but I'm being 100% honest in my assessment and in the end trying to help Joe and protect my industry.

But your assessment of the song was correct. It did sound like Joe did not know the song very well.

[Jeremy Mohler]

3. I've appeared on numerous radio jingles, sang to over 50,000 in the Summer of 1996

Reverse Summer of '96' and what do you get?  Bryan Adams you aren't fooling anyone, welcome to TMV.

[Musikman7002]

Lol, oh lord Jeremy, you went there

[Jabroni]

Points to Jeremy for trying to lighten the mood

[Jarom]

Points to Jeremy for trying to lighten the mood

Yea, it was getting kind of awkward ..... Jeremy saved the day. Let us all pray to the dear King Jeremy.

BTW. Kevin Richards is a good coach and a good singer, and yea he has many embarrassing moments online, but so does Robert, Ken, Brett, and everyone else.

[Robert Lunte]

Richards is a damn good voice coach and knows what he is doing and taking about... and a trustworthy fellow... And yes, we have all had our moments. 

 

[Jeremy Mohler]

Yea, it was getting kind of awkward ..... Jeremy saved the day. Let us all pray to the dear King Jeremy.

BTW. Kevin Richards is a good coach and a good singer, and yea he has many embarrassing moments online, but so does Robert, Ken, Brett, and everyone else.

They don't call me "membership support" for nothing.