Check out some sirens GABC

[JonJon]

Okay, so I think im getting some bridging going here. I have NOT been training (due to life drama) but I have been doing some belting and head voice stuff at work for the last couple days.

I was working on singing some Badlands and whereas usually when I hit the high notes I just flip to unconnected reinforced falsetto but today I worked on trying to keep it connected. Once I felt I was hitting a decent connected head voice note, the "bridging" was automatic. I think thats why I struggled with it before,,,,I was trying to bridge up but there was nothing to bridge TO since I wasnt used to hitting "connected" head vocie notes.

 

Anyway, its pretty raw still. like I said, I havent been training so the onsets are iffy, volume fluctuates etc. The high C is REALLY iffy. There is some goofing off going up or down multi octaves

 

Track and release up octave sirens GABC  https://clyp.it/ceg054c2

Glottal Attack down octave sirens GABC https://clyp.it/zkqvnmqi

 

So, technically, this is bridging, correct? lol

 

[Xamedhi]

Yep, that's it

Try to release just a bit of weight or "grab", and see if the C5 becomes more stable or resonant, and also see how higher you can go, by releasing more and more weight. With the resonance you are using, even if you lighten a lot more it will keep the "chesty" timbre I think. See what happens! you don't lose anything by trying  

[Xamedhi]

Another point is that ( also relevant to the warm up thread ), I have a hypothesis that if you haven't warmed up all the muscular groups that work on low, mid and high range in the voice, in different intensities and vowels, then most likely one group will limit your voice capacity. Meaning that probably your TA won't be able to handle the pressure on the higher range, or the CT wont have the strength to stretch the folds and handle the tension the TA is doing, so to me personally warming up is very relevant when singing in the higher range, and in my voice, I dare say... mandatory. lol

[JonJon]

Well I definitely have some higher range left if I go to unconnected falsetto (reinforced falsetto, whatever lol). I just need to find a way to get it connected to my regular head voice. I assume there is a higher passagio.

 

As far as carrying weight and different aspects of the physiology, I still have a lot to learn. Im sort of like a new boxer in the ring....im not aware of most of the nuances lol, im just trying to survive

 

And no, I wasnt massively warmed up. I did a few light glottal attacks etc. I havent even been training....this was very very raw.

[Xamedhi]

That's cool then, because when you try that better warmed up youll find a lot more ease and stability.

As an experiment, try to think of falsetto when doing the B4+ range, even more so on the C5-D5, but keep the intensity of the "yell" coordination at G4-A4. It may help you release a bit of weight and let the voice release more. Your chestvoice is very strong, so it will keep the stability of the coordination anyway.

Also, by the way you are connected in B4-C5, when you are actually well warmed up, you will most likely be able to just slide up to D5-E5 using the same coordination you are using at C5, actually it's not that difficult, because the connection is already there.
Also I feel a second "lightening of mass" around A#4-B4, so I feel the C5 a bit lighter than those two notes, and also a change in resonance ( it feels more deep on the back of my throat and pharyngeal ), but if I keep the energy going it just works itself out. Walk through there very slowly so you get to know what is happening and what is moving, and memorize the motions.

You seem to have a lot stronger chestvoice than me, so that may be why your second bridge point is clearer and higher, but there definitely is another "transit zone" to skill the way through so don't panic haha
Now even it that area is shaky, you should still be able to go up and up if you release more weight. I personally feel like it's just like the back of my throat/folds doing the job when doing lighter phonation stuff, and also the resonance feels a lot more pharyngeal.

 

This is the sound difference in my voice, btw, of the lighter approach on the high range versus the more intense one:

Light and "easy"( less energy required ):
 

 

And the same range but with more intensity, trying to carry more weight up ( more demanding energy-wise ) :

In here the thing I do from 1:14 and then at 1:41
 

And here you can listen how the quality of my D#5 is more pharyngeal or "higher in placement" than my A#4 or even the brief C#5's. 
 

So, try to pay attention to how the feeling of the "air pillow" inside your throat changes depending on which note you are and in which intensity, because as you probably can notice, this "placement" changes depending on the intensity and TA activity involved in the phonation.

 I suggest working at least for a week or two, only on medium intensity as it will be easier to pass through the transitions. Your voice is already quite strong, more than mine, lol, so strength is not the issue here, at all. Focus on the coordinations for now, memorize the motions and the formant shifting.

[JonJon]

ok, thanks for the extensive feedback!

I felt a pretty big difference between the B4 and the C5. The A4 was pretty easy etc, the B4 harder but not TOO bad. The c5 was way harder. If I remember correctly, a couple months back when I first started training, I had hit F5 or F#5 with reinforced falsetto as the highest note I could hit

In between recorded takes I think I did slide up to D5 once from the c5....pretty shaky though.

I was trying to feel the sensation of letting go of some of the "quack" of those top notes to let the top note be lighter like a falsetto and I almost got it a few times but couldnt quite nail it.

I was also trying a few ways to get the high falsetto to bridge into the head voice seamlessly or vice-versa....I got it close a few times

 

As I was saying in my other thread, a lot of the late 80s hair metal singer that I like, they didnt carry a ton of weight, so I want to learn some of that style where they kept it a little lighter and really nimble.

You ever listen to Badlands with Ray Gillen singing? This was the phrase that got me going this morning...where he pops up into "I know it's too late"....that was the phrase that I sort of found my connected headvoice with.

"Seasons" snippet 1 https://clyp.it/ffooehfa

and again in this clip, where he is singing soft but then pops over into the intense lines....ill be a happy dude (for 5 minutes anyway) when I can hit it like he did https://clyp.it/gab4vrpb

 

We can all dream lol

 

[Xamedhi]

I see!  Well, what helps me sing lighter in the high range and keep the voice more nimble and agile in that range is, first, back off the volume ( I've gotten used to use full volume because that's how I've been training, for strength ), but keep the pressure feeling on my throat, and think of a more cartoonish voice. A loose, released cartoonish voice, like Disney characters.

An interesting feeling to play with is like when you hold the air to take a dive, BUT did you know you can go up in pitch in that configuration?  It's like sirening up silently. You feel the larynx tilt when the folds stretch and everything. Then from there make a sound.
To me it's hard to keep the closure as I go up in note, my glottis kind of "relaxes" and I have to concentrate a lot on keeping the feeling of pressure. Then playing around for a couple of minutes like that, making connected headvoice is a lot easier.
From there, try to add a bit more volume, and more volume until the configuration feels stable enough and loud enough to sing whatever you want.
 

[ronws]

Yes, you were bridging, and fairly well and it was great, the second link where you do descending sirens for two octaves, except for the last, which was three octaves, even cooler. (more cool? cool-ier? pesky English, and I was born in America.)

And certainly those make for good transitions and provide some coordination. In my humble opinion, what should be important to notice is the sense of support or of holding  back. Granted, when some singers talk about not needing this or understanding it, it is because they had it naturally all along. Others have to learn it or, more specifically, unlearn something they picked up in learning language and dialect where they live. And that includes americans, having several distinct accents and accents within accents. For example, a southern accent depends on what part of the South someone is from. Someone from Georgia sounds different than someone from Texas. Telling either person to sing "ah" without understanding the local accent could result in a longer training session or one that is not as  productive.

Another thing to do is work on a song that is in the middle of that range, around the transition or bridging point. I don't know if you are ready or what your teacher says, I only know what I do. Part of the reason I can sing any song by Boston when I want to is not just having a high centered voice but it is because I practice singing songs by Boston with the idea in my mind that it should sound free and easy, just like Brad Delp did it. ("Cause in my mind, deep in my mind, I can't forget about you, no ...good times, places that remind me, yeah...got to keep on chasing my dreams or I may never find them, I never look behind me....Taking my time I'm just moving along. You'll forget about me after I've been gone. I take what I find, I don't want no more. It's just outside of your front door. I said hell yeah, It's been such a long time, It's been such a long time."

That involves learning to not push the folds to hard so that they last longer in a day or a singing session. And, for me, that involved learning to manage the breath to take the strain off the folds. Others may not have needed to learn that but I did. We are all individuals.

And you don't have to pick a song quite that high. The end part of "Stairway to Heaven" ends on an A4. Plant was more concerned with tone than the highest note ever emitted by a human and he has sang higher than that song.

So, I am not wanting to interrupt whatever work flow you have. Just that, at some point, the training exercises should somehow translate into singing a song. With relative ease and repeatability.

[ronws]

Also, pay attention to what Xam is doing. He is not pushing the folds. He is controlling the exhalation so that the folds can do the work more easily and any volume he is getting (no mic in close proximity) is from resonance.

[Xamedhi]

23 minutes ago, ronws said:

In my humble opinion, what should be important to notice is the sense of support or of holding  back. Granted, when some singers talk about not needing this or understanding it, it is because they had it naturally all along.

 

This is hugely important, because our voices and bodies are all very different. I learnt from an early age ( 15-16 yo ) to hold back the air from my "inhalation muscles". I used to breath low and keep the breath inside with an open glottis, just by the vacuum of the lungs and idk what specific muscles, really, lol, so my body got used to decrease sub-glottal pressure.
I didn't have much air pressure when talking or singing, and due to bad understanding of vocal instruction I started relaxing and releasing too much on my vocal muscles. So those two factors made my voice lose a lot of strength over the years. I sang very airy and soft.
That was until the second half of 2013 when I started reading stuff here and figured out I needed pressure to sing. Soon I found my high range, and also learnt how to engage the chest voice more.

I figured out that, as my body naturally builds little pressure on my torso and respiratory tract, I need to actively think of expelling air and actually using a good deal of energy to build pressure and sing louder. Some people my not need that. Some might need to hold back on the exhalation for the pressure to be balanced.
 

[MDEW]

JonJon, I just had the chance to listen to your sirens. You can even see that the second siren in your first clip is almost perfect. My browser shows the little sound graph. in the second siren there is no low energy spot you just switch to a solid sound.

 I never had trouble producing a pitch between F#4 and E5. My trouble was sounding like Miss Piggy, Ethel Merman or Edith Bunker. When I tried to maintain a masculine sound that is when the Flipping/choking at F#4 happened.

   You have a nice solid tone throughout. Singing lighter is about shedding vocal cord weight and reducing sound volume.

   One thing that people do not think about in terms of light singing and Heavy singing is that if you have a heavy cord closure or more mass to the folds as you ascend and approach the passaggio you reduce vocal mass before shifting. If you are already singing light you do not reduce mass you just increase pressure as you shift. If you are singing light and try to lighten more at the shift you will lose connection and flip to falsetto.

[JonJon]

ok guys, one thing about the strong volume and subglottal pressure etc.....as I said I JUST sort of "found" that supported headvoice yesterday at work. To find it I had to sort of concentrate and use some force, (whereas if I use unconnected falsetto I can do it lightly OR forceful)

So when I did these sirens I went ahead and used a decent amount of force. I actually did the down sirens first and thats exactly why I did the glottal attack type of onset...so that I could sort of "pop" into that supported headvoice.

So now it remains for me to learn to hit those notes with less pressure etc etc.

 

As I was telling Bob, one thing I have gobs of is any type of subglottal/diaphragmatic/internal pressure which I developed back when I was doing powerlifting. When doing heavy squats you do the valsava maneuver and as you squat down the pressure just builds and builds and your gut expands out against the leather belt and that pressure helps you as you begin to come back up.

The pressure builds so much that the superstrong guys get nosebleeds etc. It makes you feel like your head will pop off. I used to hold my breath and get that crazy pressure and when I finally released it id get a superloud exhale noise and sometimes actually make the throat/hard palate sore lol.

So volume and support from the bottom up will never be a problem for me. What I will have to learn is to open up the resonances in my headvoice etc etc. I also have a pretty strong BeeGees type reinforced falsetto from goofing off with that stuff for years.

So the weak point in me is the upper chest/headvoice blend and the good basic headvoice in itself

[JonJon]

ok, serious question here. Ya'll have heard a few of my songs etc in the past and now these sirens.

 

WHAT SINGERS CAN I EMULATE???

 

What I mean is, I love the late 80s hair metal guys like Mark Slaughter, Ray Gillen, Marq Torien etc. I want to eventually develop some of that sort of light airy high end sound

BUT I think my natural range might be a little lower like sort of the Paul Rogers, Glenn Hughes or David Coverdale type range

 

What do you guys think? (or do we need tons more singing examples? lol) In a certain sense I havent really actually sang anything yet because whatever I have sang had no bridging lol. The stuff I have sang so far has been either/or chest or head.

 

So I want some general feedback and some guys I might could sort of naturally emulate so I can check their ranges and approaches etc

 

any ideas?? thanks!

[JonJon]

1 hour ago, MDEW said:

One thing that people do not think about in terms of light singing and Heavy singing is that if you have a heavy cord closure or more mass to the folds as you ascend and approach the passaggio you reduce vocal mass before shifting. If you are already singing light you do not reduce mass you just increase pressure as you shift. If you are singing light and try to lighten more at the shift you will lose connection and flip to falsetto.

yeah, I am going to have to experiment with the different approaches. On these sirens I was just trying to blast them out lol. Thats why I love a guy like John Sykes....dude sings all over the map, high, low, heavy, light and all with a lot of soul and you never get the idea he ever thought a nickels worth about technique, dude is just a great natural singer.

 

Its just sickening...

 

[JonJon]

2 hours ago, ronws said:

Yes, you were bridging, and fairly well and it was great, the second link where you do descending sirens for two octaves, except for the last, which was three octaves, even cooler. (more cool? cool-ier? pesky English, and I was born in America.)

Well, the inner producer in me could go a little mad playing with these sirens lol

https://clyp.it/0zauxbs0

[Robert Lunte]

Sirens? Sub-Glottal Pressure? Good training ethics... Hmm, you must have a good training program. 

Hope all is going well for you Jon... don't be a stranger, feel free to reach out if you like.

Coach

[JonJon]

2 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Sirens? Sub-Glottal Pressure? Good training ethics... Hmm, you must have a good training program. 

Hope all is going well for you Jon... don't be a stranger, feel free to reach out if you like.

Coach

Thanks coach, things have been a little rocky the last 2 months but hopefully Im set to get back to consistent training

[Robert Lunte]

3 hours ago, Xamedhi said:

as my body naturally builds little pressure on my torso and respiratory tract, I need to actively think of expelling air and actually using a good deal of energy to build pressure and sing louder.

Balanced sub-glottal respiration pressure + balanced glottal compression + formant , per the frequency = An amplified voice, characterized by optimized physics of sound production in the body.  

 

Some really great examples of this, can be heard at 3:19 to 4:48... some pretty good amplification of the formants here, assisted nicely by having just the right amount of sub-glottal pressure. 

 

[Robert Lunte]

5 minutes ago, JonJon said:

Thanks coach, things have been a little rocky the last 2 months but hopefully Im set to get back to consistent training

... I think I understand. Yes, these are tough times... 

[The Future Vocalist]

Some powerful singing Rob. Has almost an Iced Earth tinge to it. That is why I'm planning on going through you as a vocal coach in the near future as I would love to have a voice that commands respect and gets the point across.

James

[VideoHere]

On 4/3/2016 at 11:11 AM, MDEW said:

JonJon, I just had the chance to listen to your sirens. You can even see that the second siren in your first clip is almost perfect. My browser shows the little sound graph. in the second siren there is no low energy spot you just switch to a solid sound.

 I never had trouble producing a pitch between F#4 and E5. My trouble was sounding like Miss Piggy, Ethel Merman or Edith Bunker. When I tried to maintain a masculine sound that is when the Flipping/choking at F#4 happened.

   You have a nice solid tone throughout. Singing lighter is about shedding vocal cord weight and reducing sound volume.

   One thing that people do not think about in terms of light singing and Heavy singing is that if you have a heavy cord closure or more mass to the folds as you ascend and approach the passaggio you reduce vocal mass before shifting. If you are already singing light you do not reduce mass you just increase pressure as you shift. If you are singing light and try to lighten more at the shift you will lose connection and flip to falsetto.

 "Singing lighter is about shedding vocal cord weight and reducing sound volume."

M, You do not have to reduce sound volume.  You do not have to lighten up anything.  You can keep a constant flow of air and intensity, regardless of volume. This shedding weight is accomplished by the vowel...(the throat shape). The vowel choice you design for yourself (no one else) is the thing that let's you up.

Do you really want to be training or singing and having to say to yourself "I'm going up high, time to cut back my voice?"

What does lowering volume accomplish?  All you end up doing is underpowering and loosing connection.

Whether you begin light or heavy you need to still play the instrument.  The voice has to get requistite breath energy at any volume.

 

 

[MDEW]

40 minutes ago, VideoHere said:

 "Singing lighter is about shedding vocal cord weight and reducing sound volume."

M, You do not have to reduce sound volume.  You do not have to lighten up anything.  You can keep a constant flow of air and intensity, regardless of volume. This shedding weight is accomplished by the vowel...(the throat shape). The vowel choice you design for yourself (no one else) is the thing that let's you up.

Do you really want to be training or singing and having to say to yourself "I'm going up high, time to cut back my voice?"

What does lowering volume accomplish?  All you end up doing is underpowering and loosing connection.

Whether you begin light or heavy you need to still play the instrument.  The voice has to get requistite breath energy at any volume.

 

 

         Lowering of volume was a poor choice........... But I did mean to keep from over powering the folds and causing them to blow open. Beginning the process of Training, finding the correct vowel(Throat shape) to do what you want is also a part of the  process.

            Things like vocal fold mass(amount of cord vibrating) and sub glottal pressure is not inherent  in the vowel itself, it may lead to certain vowel choices or shades but the vowel does not dictate the amount of mass and pressure, The amount of mass and pressure may dictate the vowel choices.

 Yeah, I know I confuse myself also when I type things like that.

[JonJon]

today at work I worked on hitting these connected head voice. notes and bridging up and down with waaaayyyy lighter mass/compression. It works that way too lol

 

vowels. One thing that never comes up when people discuss vowels is....THE SONG LYRICS!!! arent the lyrics going to massively dictate vowel choices?????

[MDEW]

1 hour ago, JonJon said:

today at work I worked on hitting these connected head voice. notes and bridging up and down with waaaayyyy lighter mass/compression. It works that way too lol

 

vowels. One thing that never comes up when people discuss vowels is....THE SONG LYRICS!!! arent the lyrics going to massively dictate vowel choices?????

 Yes the Lyrics will dictate the vowels for the most part but after a certain point you need to modify the vowels. That is where the phrase "you do not sing like you speak" comes from. This is also the point of Acoustic Modes in the TVS program.

   Vowel modification is also a big factor in the Formant Tuning concept. Singing vowels are different from speaking vowels.

  American English has a lot of dipthongs. The long I sound is Ah-ee  sometimes the choice would be to modify the EE portion to a short i sound as in sit. You may want to drop the EE portion completely and just sing Ah instead of Ah-EE  depending on where the vowel sits in a phrase or Pitch range

[VideoHere]

Jon, to really do a song right, you have to get a sheet of lyrics and pick each word apart and see the vowel(s) in each word like I had shown in "Ready for love."

You sing on the vowels, because vowels enable breath flow, where consonants inhibit breath flow and or close down the throat.

The notes you admire are tuned vowels ......

The vowel changes with the pitch.  The higher the notes, the more you have to be concerned with vowel choices.

Pronunciation and intelligibility erodes as you sing higher...