Ok Pros, help me with this C5 note (and let's all have a good laugh hehe)

[JonJon]

working on a chorus for a song. The chorus is in D minor and the highest note in the chorus is C5

 

So I can SORT of ease into the c5 note but its really shaky. Naturally if its doubled and heavily processed it sounds almost legit lol

Here is the doubled/processed vox in the chorus snippet: (btw, be forwarned, there is a flat5 note featured lol)  https://clyp.it/ybkczkss

Now, here is the BARE vx, no compression, no nothing. This is each half of the doubled chorus put back to back. The first time thru was the first one I sang and it was a little better. The 2nd time thru was a little rounded off  https://clyp.it/pjyyq1ke

So essentially I am trying to hit a C5 on the "o" in "open" and on the "uh" in "love"

Here is me JUST hitting those 2 syllables: https://clyp.it/4opbmxzu

And to show the struggle, here is one that cracked: https://clyp.it/wpr4fvas

 

So lets have some good discussion on how these sound as is, how I can best train for them to be WAY better

for comparison here is a nice B4 by Joe Lynn Turner, obviously im miles from this but this is sort of a goal to aim at: https://clyp.it/o44er4fj

 

Also any discussion on the mechanical aspect of the cracked note. Physiologically, what broke down there? (and thus, what does the training focus need to be)

[Robert Lunte]

Jon, can you simplify your request. This topic post looks like a lesson or a consultation call. There is just no way I could listen to all these links and give you a complete response without it taking about 30 or 45 minutes. That is what a lesson is for. It may be why others have not responded as well.

Please keep your questions specific, simple and offer up one key audio sample to listen too.

 

 

[JonJon]

nah, dont need a lesson or consultation.

just posting ACTUAL examples so that hopefully all the guys who talk theoretical knowledge all day long on the forum can apply that theory to someones actual singing lol

These guys argue all day long about this vowel or that vowel etc....but they act scared to comment on ACTUAL singing

cest la vie. If im meant to be a singer nothing can stop it anyway

[Gneetapp]

On April 25, 2016 at 10:03 PM, JonJon said:

Also any discussion on the mechanical aspect of the cracked note. Physiologically, what broke down there? (and thus, what does the training focus need to be)

Hi JonJon, I am no vocal pro, but I think you cracked because of to much pressure, your folds could not hold it any longer and just opened up quickly. Perhaps you need to push less and try to focus more on resonance, or you just need to keep building up strength. Cheers

[JonJon]

the "pros" I tongue in cheek refer to are the ones who argue for 10 pages over tiny shades of meaning in ancient Italian terms lol. yeah, thats REAL practical

I just answer "14"....as in how many angels can dance on the head of a pin etc

yeah, in any case im nowhere near strong enough to do anything meaningful with c5 yet lol. I just figured some of the megapros would lay out a doctoral thesis on vowel narrowing and the position of the left toe as it affects squillo during el nino years

[Gneetapp]

And don't forget that during La Niña years the conditions are reversed... lol

[Felipe Carvalho]

Its kinda the same that I say on the blabbering on the technique section... I could say, keep it bright, find more space and go stronger as soon as you get to the higher sections (for example, on "believe" it changes already). The reason is that you are getting too narrow and a bit airy/almost breaking already.

Perhaps, you could use that video I did for middle voice to map down every single vowel that goes above F4 and make sure you are articulating it with a more or less appropriate position (and that will help with the "bright/space" part), but then again, its no magic recipe.

I also had an idea for some other weird stuff that may be helpful to "go strong" and I will throw on the technique section as soon as I find a way to explain it well.

 

But then again, these are band aids that might help a bit and give a idea of how it goes like but won't be really solving the problem at its core. To solve it with technique you would need to... train technique... train support slowly and piece by piece, adjust emission based on it, adjust the EE vowel, adjust all the other vowels using it, start working on the positions for passagio, adjust one vowel using the position, train going in and out of the covered position, train the EE vowel on the covered position, train passaggio on EE, adjust all other vowels for head voice using EE, train the passagio on them all, and so forth.

Usually, alone, this fails big time on the "support" part, and many of these aspects are done on parallel constantly refining everything.

 

How did you train support and attack of sounds so far? How did you assert the exercises and which songs did you use to apply it?

[JonJon]

59 minutes ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Its kinda the same that I say on the blabbering on the technique section... I could say, keep it bright, find more space and go stronger as soon as you get to the higher sections (for example, on "believe" it changes already). The reason is that you are getting too narrow and a bit airy/almost breaking already.

Perhaps, you could use that video I did for middle voice to map down every single vowel that goes above F4 and make sure you are articulating it with a more or less appropriate position (and that will help with the "bright/space" part), but then again, its no magic recipe.

I also had an idea for some other weird stuff that may be helpful to "go strong" and I will throw on the technique section as soon as I find a way to explain it well.

 

But then again, these are band aids that might help a bit and give a idea of how it goes like but won't be really solving the problem at its core. To solve it with technique you would need to... train technique... train support slowly and piece by piece, adjust emission based on it, adjust the EE vowel, adjust all the other vowels using it, start working on the positions for passagio, adjust one vowel using the position, train going in and out of the covered position, train the EE vowel on the covered position, train passaggio on EE, adjust all other vowels for head voice using EE, train the passagio on them all, and so forth.

Usually, alone, this fails big time on the "support" part, and many of these aspects are done on parallel constantly refining everything.

 

How did you train support and attack of sounds so far? How did you assert the exercises and which songs did you use to apply it?

 

Yeah, common sense would tell me to start on e4 or f4 and train those to be really strong on various vowels etc. C5 is probably out of my strong range no matter what I try at this particular moment

I was just wondering if I was doing something particularly wrong vowel wise etc

[JonJon]

1 hour ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Its kinda the same that I say on the blabbering on the technique section... I could say, keep it bright, find more space and go stronger as soon as you get to the higher sections (for example, on "believe" it changes already). The reason is that you are getting too narrow and a bit airy/almost breaking already.

Perhaps, you could use that video I did for middle voice to map down every single vowel that goes above F4 and make sure you are articulating it with a more or less appropriate position (and that will help with the "bright/space" part), but then again, its no magic recipe.

I also had an idea for some other weird stuff that may be helpful to "go strong" and I will throw on the technique section as soon as I find a way to explain it well.

 

But then again, these are band aids that might help a bit and give a idea of how it goes like but won't be really solving the problem at its core. To solve it with technique you would need to... train technique... train support slowly and piece by piece, adjust emission based on it, adjust the EE vowel, adjust all the other vowels using it, start working on the positions for passagio, adjust one vowel using the position, train going in and out of the covered position, train the EE vowel on the covered position, train passaggio on EE, adjust all other vowels for head voice using EE, train the passagio on them all, and so forth.

Usually, alone, this fails big time on the "support" part, and many of these aspects are done on parallel constantly refining everything.

 

How did you train support and attack of sounds so far? How did you assert the exercises and which songs did you use to apply it?

 

Ok Felipe, you are mentioning the EE vowel. I understand that the "O" vowels are weak....you think the 'EE' ("believe" "me") are also weak?

They dont feel particularly weak...then again they arent up at c5

[ronws]

8 hours ago, JonJon said:

the "pros" I tongue in cheek refer to are the ones who argue for 10 pages over tiny shades of meaning in ancient Italian terms lol. yeah, thats REAL practical

I just answer "14"....as in how many angels can dance on the head of a pin etc

yeah, in any case im nowhere near strong enough to do anything meaningful with c5 yet lol. I just figured some of the megapros would lay out a doctoral thesis on vowel narrowing and the position of the left toe as it affects squillo during el nino years

I can also help with something I learned from actor Jack Nicholson. Repeat after me:

"goosenfrabe."

Then sing a round of "I Feel Pretty" from "West Side Story."

There are times when you remind me of myself. A bit snippy. It can help to breathe, sit back, relax, do something fun and then get back to work.

And, oh yeah, Felipe has good points you should heed.

 

[JonJon]

5 minutes ago, ronws said:

I can also help with something I learned from actor Jack Nicholson. Repeat after me:

"goosenfrabe."

Then sing a round of "I Feel Pretty" from "West Side Story."

There are times when you remind me of myself. A bit snippy. It can help to breathe, sit back, relax, do something fun and then get back to work.

And, oh yeah, Felipe has good points you should heed.

 

yeah, we had this same discussion a few months back.

As we speak, there is a thread 50 responses deep with intense debate over the difference between the terms "necessary twang" and "distinct twang." I understand it's very important to fiercely debate such things...especially if its a purely theoretical thing.

A person of any degree of intelligence can't help but notice and comment on such things.

 

Trust me, I wont lose any sleep over any of it. I practice so little it wouldnt matter if I had 12 guru's answering every question lol

[Danielformica]

just heard this. so you wanna get this right 

1. don't sing oh in open sing uhpen. but don't swoop to it get right on it attack it on the note.

same with love don't swoop sing uh luhve. as it sounds. not lahve

 

now aside from that some of the approach needs work . but i think you can get it don't swoop it carries weight from the bottom..

[MDEW]

20 hours ago, JonJon said:

the "pros" I tongue in cheek refer to are the ones who argue for 10 pages over tiny shades of meaning in ancient Italian terms lol. yeah, thats REAL practical

I just answer "14"....as in how many angels can dance on the head of a pin etc

yeah, in any case im nowhere near strong enough to do anything meaningful with c5 yet lol. I just figured some of the megapros would lay out a doctoral thesis on vowel narrowing and the position of the left toe as it affects squillo during el nino years

      And knowing this, why would any of the "So called Experts" respond in the first place?  You already have your answer. You gave it yourself. Vowel modification and you are not strong enough yet. And it is not Strength in musculature, it is strength in coordination that takes practice and honing in on your own physical make up. C5 is normally in another place of passage just like E4 to G4 where you used to just flip and go into falsetto. The same rules apply here at C5.

      I am no expert and never claimed to be. I am learning and training like every one else. And when someone asks a question or is trying to make a point the terms become important to give and receive a proper responce.

      By the way the answer depends on how big the angels are and how big of a pin they are dancing on. I do not know if the material the pin is made out of makes a difference in this universe but in another universe it may.

[JonJon]

23 minutes ago, MDEW said:

      And knowing this, why would any of the "So called Experts" respond in the first place?  You already have your answer. You gave it yourself. Vowel modification and you are not strong enough yet.

 

I didn't give that answer until on down in the thread and even then it's not an "informed" answer anyway....it's just what anyone would guess. I knew that much before I joined the forum.

I simply put out a singing effort and asked for feedback on my efforts to stretch up to the C5.

 

And simply saying "vowel modification" is about the same as not answering at all. It's like if someone says "Help me out, I can't throw a curveball, whats the secret?" and someone answers "physics."

 

But I suppose it is the same as in any other field, rather than ask the experts, it's better to just become one. True?

 

[MDEW]

34 minutes ago, JonJon said:

 

I didn't give that answer until on down in the thread and even then it's not an "informed" answer anyway....it's just what anyone would guess. I knew that much before I joined the forum.

I simply put out a singing effort and asked for feedback on my efforts to stretch up to the C5.

 

And simply saying "vowel modification" is about the same as not answering at all. It's like if someone says "Help me out, I can't throw a curveball, whats the secret?" and someone answers "physics."

 

But I suppose it is the same as in any other field, rather than ask the experts, it's better to just become one. True?

 

The whole problem is that even if someone where to say Jon, Drop your jaw a little more, cut back the air and sing UH instead of Oh. It still may not work because your perception of UH may be different, The jaw may still not drop enough, The throat shape may still be off and you still may not be getting enough closure or twang even though you think you are and the so called expert would still be wrong and a quack even though he gave the answer. It does not work until YOU find it through Guidance and experimentation but YOU still need to experience it before it works. So many things about singing are confusing and seem backward until you experience it and THEN you end up saying "OH, Thats what that jerk was talking about".

[JonJon]

3 minutes ago, MDEW said:

The whole problem is that even if someone where to say Jon, Drop your jaw a little more, cut back the air and sing UH instead of Oh. It still may not work because your perception of UH may be different,

yeah, that would be a good start though!

[MDEW]

2 minutes ago, JonJon said:

yeah, that would be a good start though!

The whole vowel modification thing is finding a throat shape that works for you. Have you ever listened to Bon Scott on early AC/DC? Did you wonder why you cannot understand a thing that he was singing? it was not because he was singing with marbles in his mouth, it was because that is the throat shape that allows him to sing that high.

  The proper UH for you may be something that does not even sound like UH. A fine example of Vowel modification is Adele Listen to her speak and then listen to her sing. There are many Videos of her performing live. I use her as an example because of the BIG difference between her speaking voice and her singing voice.

[ronws]

Actually, according to Douglas Adams, as he wrote "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy," the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything is -

42.

Perhaps someone asked the wrong question and should have worried about 6 times 7.

And don't worry, Jon, others are rejecting my ideas in physics. So, it is evidently not a viable model or explanation, according to others who may be experts. I cannot be an expert because I am not a voice coach or teacher of singing.

 

[JonJon]

9 minutes ago, ronws said:

Actually, according to Douglas Adams, as he wrote "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy," the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything is -

42.

Perhaps someone asked the wrong question and should have worried about 6 times 7.

And don't worry, Jon, others are rejecting my ideas in physics. So, it is evidently not a viable model or explanation, according to others who may be experts. I cannot be an expert because I am not a voice coach or teacher of singing.

 

yeah. As u said in another thread, there is a "magical" quality to singing and music in general. A lot of it simply will NOT reduce to words on paper. While many of the great singers we could name were in fact "trained", just as many if not more were not trained.

[DeityDog]

Hi JonJon, it's difficult to give you precise feedback, because in the recording you can't actually hear how much resonance you have (how loud you are). But it sounds to me as a soft speaking, lullaby singing kind of volume only on a high note, wich makes the volume a little bit higher. Basically the higher and or louder you sing, the more support you need. And support is something you have to consciously apply, otherwise it is probably going to be passive support. For those killer notes you need a ton of breath support. You need to squeeze yourself empty, go super saiyan like your are crushing a diamond inside your belly with your core muscles (pulling in lower abdominals beneath your bellybutton, pushing out flanks, engaging lowerback muscles and a sensation of pushing your diaphragm down). Franco Tenelli in is his art of appoggio series on youtube explains it with examples of what the sensations of good breath support actually feel like. Shortly put: no tensions whatsoever in the throat or neck, and when you're a newbie, sore core muscles and maybe even difficulty breathing after sometimes only minutes of singing with appoggio support. It's is possible you are going to be sore the next day like you over did it working out in the gym.

Power and technique cannot be bought separately in the store of awesome voices. The strength is part of the technique. Some people will say you need some strength in the muscles inside your throat as well. Maybe, but it is not like you can bulk those up, they going to stay small, it is more a matter of coordination. 

As far as vowels go, my theoretical framework by wich I understand the voice is that of CVT (complete vocal technique). Not everybody  is familiar with that and maybe you already use Lunte's four pillars. Wich vowels you use on the high C's depends on the sound you are going for. An open O vowel as in 'open' is possible but very difficult and loud and shouty. An easier option would be a more twanged vowel as in stay or herb that you can make sound like uh as daniel said. An uh that is very loud, twanged and aggresive, snarling sounding. Think of chris cornell on his high notes.  The uh vowel can also be sung more quietly, (still louder than what you are doing now) in a held back plaintive manner. Think stevie wonder. 

But what I hear most of all, is not properly supported high notes, not just by you on this forum. Lots of peeps. 

Sing the passage you wanna learn a semitone or couple of notes lower, get it right and move it up a note. Maybe start on the pitch where you feel you are resonant with ease and work your way up. You have got to learn the right balance of support and manipulations in the throat. This takes some time. Practice everyday, you will get there. 

 

Hope this helps a bit.

Woof Woof!

[JonJon]

12 hours ago, DeityDog said:

 But it sounds to me as a soft speaking, lullaby singing kind of volume

thanks for the listen and feedback.

not sure what clip you are listening to though lol. This was all fairly loud IMO

 

[DeityDog]

okay i'll try to be more specific. the c5's sound like they have enough high but not enough low. Check this vid:

 

[JonJon]

1 hour ago, DeityDog said:

okay i'll try to be more specific. the c5's sound like they have enough high but not enough low. Check this vid:

 

okay, that statement I can automatically agree with lol. Im BARELY getting the c5 at all....obviously im not going to be getting a CHESTY c5 yet lol