Draven Grey

Muscle Soreness after Working with Onsets?

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I've been practicing and teaching TVS onsets for two weeks now. I've been teaching onsets for years, but not as consciously picked apart as the TVS onsets. Lately, I have noticed my throat musculature is getting sore much like other muscles do after a workout. This is particularly noticeable after and with messa di voce and contract & release onsets.

I've tried to stay very conscious of unnecessary tension and pushing, especially since I teach up to five hours a day. My more serious students are noticing the same type of soreness in their throat musculature too, after a week of working with those two onsets. Is this normal when first starting to use these onsets? I imagine it is, since I'm likely working a muscle group an entirely different way than ever before. But want to be sure, since I'm pretty sure that I've never felt this before, even though I consider myself a more advanced singer.

If it's normal, then I'm extremely excited to hear how my voice coordination and strength benefit from it! 

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That's a hard question for me to answer. I can't remember if I had soreness or muscle exhaustion learning a certain thing here or there. Which doesn't mean that it shouldn't cause soreness. Normal activity doing something you already know how to do can still make you sore.

And I am not a good judge of level of discomfort. I have a high tolerance for pain and through natural talent and training to ignore discomfort, weather conditions, eating things that would make a billy goat puke, something that might feel as a discomfort or soreness to someone else would go unnoticed by me.

This soreness, is it stopping you from speaking or is it making your voice hoarse? If not, then it is simply the muscles training to a new job. Or does it feel like an itch or tickle in the throat? Could be an opportune infection you are suffering just now and easy to mistake it as a sign of new training.

I personally don't know and can't answer but I would like to know what you learn about it.

 

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Draven, I just saw this... 

For starters, is vocal fatigue normal after working onsets?  Yes, especially for beginners, (and in a sense you are also a beginner with these new onsets, at least for a while), but it also depends on which onsets your doing and that is the part that in interesting to me in your post.

1). I don't believe it is the messa di voce that is creating fatigue. That is actually a "Coordination and Tuning" onset and as such, it is a bit lighter in its nature. It is a finesse onset not a resistance training onset. However, I am really glad to hear that you are using that onset. It is good for helping students to find the musculature in a  work flow sequence, inside their head voice... I'm assuming you realize that because you seem like a good 4Pillars student.

2). The fatigue is likely coming from the contract and release onset. Hey,... that onset HAS to be done with prudence. I use that onset ONLY when others are not getting me the result I need in the head voice, and that is extremely rare!

3). I think your possibly leading with the wrong onsets. Draven, the day to day, meat and potatoes onsets that I use every day , that you should be using every day with your students are;

Coordination & Tuning Onsets:

T&R

Q&R

W&R

Resistance Training Onsets:

D&R

A&R

 

Daven, have you seen the Integrated Training Routines in your copy of 4Pillars?  PLEASE WATCH THE "COORDINATION & TUNING" AND "RESISTANCE" : ONSETS & SIRENS ROUTINES  in your copy of 4Pillars. You have to learn how to build ITRs especially as a voice teacher!

The Anatomy of an ITR:

1. There is an onset & offset. (strategically selected. Used for a reason that you understand, because you studied and understand the onsets).

2. A vocalize. (some kind of workout in the middle or the "venue").

3. Acoustic Mode. (the vowels... the "medium" inside the workout is... the acoustics, the vowels!  And like the onsets, you don't just randomly do any vowel. You choose vowels for a specific purpose).

 

So I just think, you are diving into the onsets with not enough understanding at the moment. And as such, you are choosing the two onsets that are actually, speciality items. They are the two onsets I use the least. M&R and C&R onsets are like the special funky wrench in the tool box that you only use once in a while. Most of the time, you need to be using the ones I mentioned above. And you want to be real smart about the onsets. The TVS onsets don't mean squat if you don't understand what each of them is doing for you. I"m assuming you mostly do, because you're a good student... but that includes, being able to use the ITRs and ultimately, know how to build your OWN ITRs... When you understand the onsets and vowels thoroughly , you can then begin to create your own ITRs and prescribe them to your students. Although, 9 out of 10 of the ITRs you will ever need have already been created and demonstrated for you in the ITR module... 

The short of it is... get of the C&R onset... if you want to build head voices, move to D&R and A&R onsets, with melodic 5th and octave sirens... but only after a good warm up. 

This response assumes that you are also doing the nasal consonant buzzing routines to warm up as well. If your not doing that and just crashing straight into C&R onsets, then no wonder your getting tired.

 

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1 hour ago, ronws said:

That's a hard question for me to answer. I can't remember if I had soreness or muscle exhaustion learning a certain thing here or there. Which doesn't mean that it shouldn't cause soreness. Normal activity doing something you already know how to do can still make you sore.

And I am not a good judge of level of discomfort. I have a high tolerance for pain and through natural talent and training to ignore discomfort, weather conditions, eating things that would make a billy goat puke, something that might feel as a discomfort or soreness to someone else would go unnoticed by me.

This soreness, is it stopping you from speaking or is it making your voice hoarse? If not, then it is simply the muscles training to a new job. Or does it feel like an itch or tickle in the throat? Could be an opportune infection you are suffering just now and easy to mistake it as a sign of new training.

I personally don't know and can't answer but I would like to know what you learn about it.

 

You can know, if you work inside your copy of The Four Pillars of Singing.

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Good to know I'm on the right track. I haven't gotten into ITRs yet, but have been doing as you described on the Coordination onsets for many years (just calling them something different). I have my own routines that I adjusted to include what I've learned in onsets and acoustic modes in TFPOS, rather than the things I was doing close to the same things. I'll get through acoustic modes today and look at the ITRs. I agree that I have been placing too much emphasis on the C&R on the resistance side of things. I've never really trained resistance before, besides just doing "neeyahs", which are a less refined Q&R.

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