First original song - The Story

[Javastorm]

I had never spent time developing the skill of writing songs. I just didn't know where to start. After forcing myself to sit with my guitar and a keyboard as a guide, somehow I was able to finish this song in one sitting in a strange burst of inspiration that evolved as the process happened. I can provide the lyrics if anyone needs or it's not clear enough. I recorded the guitar tracks separately from the vocals. Please let me know if it's dragging/keeps interest and how the arrangement and phrasing sounds in general.

https://app.box.com/s/wa3y2ko2t12r1o45nancvht8bvao89yq

Second Mix: https://app.box.com/s/fugwx3wytme34ft03na23b85msmacs01

[JonJon]

before I even listen to it I will tell you this. if its an original, be prepared to be slaughtered by those who never have, nor ever will write an original lol.

Also remember, for example, that producer Quincy Jones didnt like the song "Billie Jean" and didnt want it to go on the Michael Jackson "Thriller" album....yet it became arguably Michael's most recognizable song

Just a heads up

[JonJon]

just some random thoughts:

 

1) Its pretty cool

2) I know its just a rough demo, but it obviously needs drums. U got any drum software? I use EZ Drummer 2...which has its own ups and downs.

 

Just thinking out loud here. As for the particular song itself AND for future reference, id try to develop a little variety in the vocal delivery. That sort of emotionally heavy cry/sob things is really cool and expressive BUT it wuld probably get old after several songs of just that. Do you sing in other styles? for instance if you had that cry thing going but then you also had a brighter more edgy delivery, those 2 would really complement each other nicely.

Thats the way i try to think sometimes as far as building a song. What can I do to build variety and interest as I go. for instance start off really quiet and close right up on the mic and then for the prechorus or chorus move back a bit and really open up the voice. Of course when you are doing that you are also building variety into the instrumentation etc etc

 

overall its pretty good though. nice voice etc

[JonJon]

here is an example of what I mean. I dont even necessarily LOVE the song BUT that chorus hooks you really strong. Notice how the vocal delivery on the chorus is totally different than the verse

 

[Javastorm]

40 minutes ago, JonJon said:

just some random thoughts:

 

1) Its pretty cool

2) I know its just a rough demo, but it obviously needs drums. U got any drum software? I use EZ Drummer 2...which has its own ups and downs.

 

Just thinking out loud here. As for the particular song itself AND for future reference, id try to develop a little variety in the vocal delivery. That sort of emotionally heavy cry/sob things is really cool and expressive BUT it wuld probably get old after several songs of just that. Do you sing in other styles? for instance if you had that cry thing going but then you also had a brighter more edgy delivery, those 2 would really complement each other nicely.

Thats the way i try to think sometimes as far as building a song. What can I do to build variety and interest as I go. for instance start off really quiet and close right up on the mic and then for the prechorus or chorus move back a bit and really open up the voice. Of course when you are doing that you are also building variety into the instrumentation etc etc

 

overall its pretty good though. nice voice etc

Thanks for listening! This is really just a rapid-fire demo of getting the song out and tangible - I was planning on going back and fixing a lot of performance and production/timing things later. I agree about adding variation to the delivery for the future. I didn't actually imagine this with drums when I was working on it and I've never used drum programming software but thanks for the reference!

[JonJon]

9 minutes ago, Javastorm said:

Thanks for listening! This is really just a rapid-fire demo of getting the song out and tangible - I was planning on going back and fixing a lot of performance and production/timing things later. I agree about adding variation to the delivery for the future. I didn't actually imagine this with drums when I was working on it and I've never used drum programming software but thanks for the reference!

theres not THAT many songs out there with no drums or percussion lol

[KillerKu]

This is a good song and way above average for a first attempt. I'm not sure about percussion. I use Superior Drummer 2 currently with an E drum kit and it still has a 'fake' sound and some latency issues. So if you don't have real drums and the proper micing setup it can create a nightmare setup and if you do it electronic it can get pretty dance pop. 

On the other hand there are plenty of acoustic performers and if you are a songwriter, and wanted to get your song licensed, and covered. Having a busier setup for the song could make things more difficult.

I really do like the vocal performance itself a lot. The contrast between the lighter and heavier sections and emotive performance was good. Composition wise if you want it poppier you might want to increase repetition more frequently and keep rhythms a bit snappier. When thinking catchy, I always think of nursery rhymes and tapping fingers. Some rhythms are infectious and a lot of modern pop music is almost like schoolyard chants. If you think of a full Bach piece, how complex and difficult to remember. That's on the opposite side. Yours is more accessible.

This song already has a 'flow' to it though, and isn't necessarily a pop song. So a lot of where you go would depend on where you want to go. I'm pretty sure if you put this song up for the public certain people would definitely feel it. You've got a better voice than Elliot Smith technically. And he's acoustic only. He's not as popular as Adele with those catchy pop songs. But he still connected with people.

I'm a songwriter too, but very rarely post things publicly here. I'd like to get an album format and copyright all the tracks at once, but I can preview this song here. It has the word story in the chorus so you reminded me of it.

https://app.box.com/s/0mj2zwf14xyytpemmrk4wpa6fwugetp2

That kind of song there. It's likely too musically complex to be a single. I'd prefer real drums rather than the headache I had. But otherwise I'm mostly satisfied with the artistic vision. So some songs are more about expression of emotion and art. Others might lend well to being like a really accessible pop hit. Others might straddle the line.

For you I'd probably just keep writing more songs at this point. Figure out what is important to you as you go. I like catchy melodies, but I also like harmonic complexity, eccentricity, dissonance, and human elements. Not every song needs to be everything to everyone.

[Javastorm]

Thank you for your input Killer! I don't think I'll add drums to this since I prefer the acoustic feeling and the idea of carrying the song with guitar and voice alone. I was thinking of adding some light percussion towards the end of the song as it builds though and I don't think it would hurt, like a seed shaker or something. As far as making a modern pop song I would rather not go that route since I don't agree with a lot of the conventions of more recent pop music in the last ten years or so. But I do want this to be somewhat accessible.

The song that you linked really appealed to me from a technical standpoint as well as emotive. That kind of complexity is attractive to me as a listener although I might not want to perform or create music as complex (or even have the ability) myself, I can appreciate it and enjoy it. I see what you mean about most people not remember Bach pieces vs. nursery rhymes.

I will keep working on new song concepts where I know I have the freedom to experiment and refine and figure out what I want things to sound like, because for this one it was really the result of an expressive crisis and ended up being more raw than I intended. Hours before I wrote this song and was considering the idea of composing a song I was listening to songs by 98 Degrees and those 90s Adult Contemporary groups and was like "Hm, I want to write a song like one of these pop ballads" and something completely different came out in the end, so it was a strange, but natural and cathartic experience.

[Robert Lunte]

I listened...

There is a good song in here... you wrote a good song... however:

- You need to tighten up the musicianship: tempo / cues, pitch.

- Get more production: put a band behind it.

r

[ronws]

As for programming drums, it is one thing to have ez drummer or something like it, it is another thing to know how to use it well. If someone, like Killer, already actually knows how to play drums, then it is not so bad. But I would not expect a singer here just picking up the guitar to play as well or as easy as I do since I have played guitar since 1974.

I can play drums with my Casio LK-165 by hand, on the keys. And guess what? It sounds like someone who doesn't normally play drums is trying to play drums.

[JonJon]

49 minutes ago, ronws said:

As for programming drums, it is one thing to have ez drummer or something like it, it is another thing to know how to use it well. If someone, like Killer, already actually knows how to play drums, then it is not so bad. But I would not expect a singer here just picking up the guitar to play as well or as easy as I do since I have played guitar since 1974.

I can play drums with my Casio LK-165 by hand, on the keys. And guess what? It sounds like someone who doesn't normally play drums is trying to play drums.

ez drummer is drag and drop though...there is NO actual "playing" involved. There are no pads to hit or whatever. The only skill might be picking the right patterns to go along with a song if u have already written the song. That and arranging etc. I mean, yeah, there is a certain amount of knowledge needed as far as drum conventions like how the drums might build from closed hi hat to open hi hat to ride etc

I sort of get around some of that by STARTING with the Ez drum patterns. I just program a logical pattern like intro/v/c/v/c/bridge/c out or whatever. I load that onto reaper and I start building a song.

Without EZ Drummer id probably be purely spinning my wheels (or spinning them  even MORE than I am now lol)

[Javastorm]

https://app.box.com/s/fugwx3wytme34ft03na23b85msmacs01

I completely redid the lead vocal, redid a lot of rhythm guitar work, added strings to the arrangement, and changed some vocal arrangement and harmonies in the second half - it sounds less bare now to me production-wise, but I don't know about percussion still.

Updated the original post as well with this link

[KillerKu]

That's a clear improvement to my ears. The phrasing is much tighter. The original's phrasing was primarily behind the beat which conveyed a downtrodden, on the losing side of things. This one has some 'push and pull' in the phrasing, which gives it energy and a bit more hope. 

I also feel like the call and response in the chorus was tightened a bit. The strings were minimal and good, imo.

As for the drums, I touched on it before, but it would be a risk to add to an already strong song. There's composition of the drums. Drum composition is a skill that usually has to be developed over time, as Ronws implies, unless you go for a stock beat. And with electronics there is often either a rigid element or manual editing/antiquating to give more of a human feel. 

I've done a lot of drum programming for my video game's music as it there will be percussion elements not available to me that might be more suitable for the theme and not distract as much as having some rock drummer wander into a random composition.  

This is an entirely electronic composition here: https://app.box.com/s/vloq945t0auc1x5sd5bvbfbbx105ni5u

Drums are definitely worth developing. My brother can compose electronic drums fairly well as a non drummer as he's been a composer for some time. He's probably not as instinctive as me cause he can't really drum. I get him on there, and there is the lopsided disco beat, and the desperately confused rock beat. But his ears for timing are good.

Basically the rule  of thumb here, is you don't necessarily want to spoil something good by rushing everything and the kitchen sink into it. If you're not ready to compose drums but you're ready to sing and play guitar, while it's good experiment and learn and practice, you wrote a good song. It's like making a good meal. Maybe a meal might taste better with a measured amount of mustard, maybe not. But if you don't know how to open the bottle, aren't overly familiar with how mustard tastes, and the mustard sprays everywhere randomly over the meal cause every meal needs mustard, right? Learn how to open the bottle, get a taste for it, and pour it on a cheap burger. If you're more experienced later, you put it on the gourmet dish. I don't think this is a disposable song you wrote here and putting things in because that's 'the thing to be doing' could tarnish it.

[ronws]

12 hours ago, JonJon said:

ez drummer is drag and drop though...there is NO actual "playing" involved. There are no pads to hit or whatever. The only skill might be picking the right patterns to go along with a song if u have already written the song. That and arranging etc. I mean, yeah, there is a certain amount of knowledge needed as far as drum conventions like how the drums might build from closed hi hat to open hi hat to ride etc

I sort of get around some of that by STARTING with the Ez drum patterns. I just program a logical pattern like intro/v/c/v/c/bridge/c out or whatever. I load that onto reaper and I start building a song.

Without EZ Drummer id probably be purely spinning my wheels (or spinning them  even MORE than I am now lol)

And not everyone is going to have the same ease with this stuff that you do. And I know because I have dragged and dropped and it takes a while. That's why it is easier to play the casio because at least that is like drumming on a desk top with my fingers.

I guarantee if he had come up with even a basic 4 on the floor boom-chuck, others would have pooped on that for not being expressive enough.

Nor do people have to be multi-instrumentalists to be good musicians. There were and are other good musicians besides Prince in the world. Just to trust me on that, I have been around just a little longer.

Last, maybe he really did feel that this song is best without percussion. And now, all I see is  talk about is how it needs percussion. I thought we were going to be supportive of songwriting. Or is this because not enough people give kudos to good songwriting, so it is easier to pick apart the one thing the song does not have?

For example, one favorite song of my wife and mine is "Leader of the Band" by Dan Fogelberg. Not a drum or anything but guitar in there. Even live, the rest of the band actually will leave the stage for a potty break while Dan would do that one.

I really do promise, it is okay to do an acoustical guitar song without drums on it, really and truly.

[JonJon]

4 hours ago, ronws said:

And not everyone is going to have the same ease with this stuff that you do. And I know because I have dragged and dropped and it takes a while. That's why it is easier to play the casio because at least that is like drumming on a desk top with my fingers.

I guarantee if he had come up with even a basic 4 on the floor boom-chuck, others would have pooped on that for not being expressive enough.

Nor do people have to be multi-instrumentalists to be good musicians. There were and are other good musicians besides Prince in the world. Just to trust me on that, I have been around just a little longer.

Last, maybe he really did feel that this song is best without percussion. And now, all I see is  talk about is how it needs percussion. I thought we were going to be supportive of songwriting. Or is this because not enough people give kudos to good songwriting, so it is easier to pick apart the one thing the song does not have?

For example, one favorite song of my wife and mine is "Leader of the Band" by Dan Fogelberg. Not a drum or anything but guitar in there. Even live, the rest of the band actually will leave the stage for a potty break while Dan would do that one.

I really do promise, it is okay to do an acoustical guitar song without drums on it, really and truly.

Isnt a review supposed to present someones opinion of what they think? I expressed what I thought.

 

Im a pretty supportive guy when it comes to writing originals....since ive posted about 10 originals and had every one of them crapped on.

My review was about as plain vanilla as it gets.

 

for every song u name with no percussion i'll name 50 with...you'll run out before I do. Thats regardless of the genre.

 

Whining about "omg, not everyone can program drums".  Yes, that true. Not everyone can sing. Not everyone can be a musician.

Ive never had ANY "ease" in anything ive done...as you have seen explicitly in my brief time on this forum. Evry single thing I do is a massive struggle. If I can continue learning at 48, I find it hard to think people half my age cant learn

 

When I started posting stuff online people said it sounded weird without drums. So I went thru the hassle of buying EZ Drummer 2 and trying to learn how to use them (and produce and mix them). Then when I posted my jams people said "it sounds weird without words"...so I tried to get others to sing and that lasted like 5 minutes and I just started singing myself.

In the meantime ive had to continually work on mixing and sound quality etc etc etc.

 

In the end we have 3 options:

1) learn how to do everything yourself

2) get help

3) have a sucky product

 

If dude wants to put out songs with no percussion....more power to him.

[KillerKu]

A lot of times demos of songs will not have percussion. It is not uncommon at all for demos to sound like this:

If you want to get a pro drummer and form a whole band like Bruce that's great. If you want to get good at drums that's great too, but anticipate years of practice in the meantime. As a multi instrumentalist I'm still not as good as some exclusive drummers. Jack of all trades, master of none and so forth.

If you want to be a songwriter, you need a strong song.  As a songwriter, the embryo is really important.

You can still add drums, as someone did here (Not Simon and Garfunkel):

But if the song is strong, it's strong. If it's good enough, people will have interested in covering, arranging, etc. That's the primary goal of a songwriter.

[JonJon]

44 minutes ago, KillerKu said:

If you want to get a pro drummer and form a whole band like Bruce that's great. If you want to get good at drums that's great too, but anticipate years of practice in the meantime. As a multi instrumentalist I'm still not as good as some exclusive drummers. Jack of all trades, master of none and so forth.

 

My last post in this thread.

What part of "Drag and Drop" is so hard to understand? The whole point of software like EZ Drummer is that you DONT have to hire a pro drummer NOR do you need years of practice on drums yourself

 

I write rock music and am proud to do so. Pretty much everything I do will have drums on it. To each his own

Peace out

 

 

[KillerKu]

Music composition is not usually 'EZ.' There's no program that can make it easy. It's always a lifetime commitment of hard work and devotion to music.

There isn't really replacing that in any field. Even rock bands with relatively lower skill levels usually have members who have spent many years at their craft. Electronic rock composers like Trent Reznor spent many years at their craft as well. It's never as simple as drag and drop.

Quality is not easy. Going down that route can easily sell yourself short. There are professional electronic composers as well. They didn't grab the EZ and drag and drop. It was a lot of work and expecting instant quality can be unrealistic, resulting in extreme frustration and delusions. If people realize there is no easy way, it can set them up for a lifetime of development through the rough patches and the good patches when preparing to put the work into whatever composition they're interested in.

[ronws]

And I am out because even though I did not say OMG, I am being quoted as saying such, only because I said not everyone programs drums. Because I realized, I dared to disagree with or counterpoint to someone else's review. So, evidently, it is not okay to disagree with a review. So, ignore my rules for review and come up with some.

[MDEW]

Good song Javastorm,  Write more songs. For a first attempt at writing you did great.

Song writers need only worry about lyrics melody and basic chord progression.

Sure if you plan on releasing this yourself and playing all instuments and such, then maybe thoughts on percussion and musical composition, points and counterpoints should be considered. BUT, most of the time drum patterns, bass lines and background embellishments are left to the studio musicians. They are given a chord sheet and a tempo. They do not get the whole composition writen for them. They use their own discretion and their sense of musicality. If things do not go as expected they are then given a basic direction.

Do not stop writing because someone thinks that it should have drums or bass lines or other embelishments. The original composition is basic. Chord pattern, tempo and melody and lyrics. Write songs, Let the arrangers worry about where to put a snare tap and a cymbol crash or maybe more cowbell.

    Let your Guitar and voice provide the tempo, intensity and mood. You did a good job.