Jump to content

Concentrate on the Right Things

Rate this topic


Danielformica

Recommended Posts

Lately I have been lurking on the forums more than answering questions. I am finding that a lot of the questions that are being asked can be answered very simply but are being answered very wordy and creating confusion.

 

I want to say that maybe I was lucky to study with who I studied and study with and also how I made my career singing for a living. It wasn't easy but I put a lot of work into my voice many many years 20 + and many years on the road away from an apt whether it be in NYC, CA, ATL,CHICAGO, CT.. I blew out my voice many times and studied with whomever I could never once did any of my teachers worth anything bring up terms like Twang,compression, hold or hold back your breath, embouchure,dampening, sphincters of any kind;), this anchor that anchor,chewbaca sounds, guinea pigs,curbing,overdrive etc etc etc.. Of course when I started teaching 7 years ago(after mastering technique In other words sing anything I want and diagnose problems quickly) I started seeing all these terms and had to know what they meant to keep up with the young guns term wise. 

 

So what I am trying to say is if you want to be a great singer you only need to concern yourself with a FEW principles/exercises Practiced Perfectly.  Ask yourself these questions and listen to yourself closely when you practice.  Does the vowel I am singing sound like the vowel i want? Is my voice ringing and buzzy? As I sing higher in my range do I stay consistent? Does my teacher demonstrate exactly what his "method" says it does?

 

Hope this helps and doesn't sound like I'm looking down on the new terms. But TRUTH be told I got my technique down from perfect practice,vowels sound like vowels,and keep the buzzy ringy sound constant. hard hard work no b.s.  years not months at least 15 years of perfect practice…Anyone of my musician friends/band mates would tell you the same..

 

Hope this helps..

Daniel

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"So what I am trying to say is if you want to be a great singer you only need to concern yourself with a FEW principles/exercises Practiced Perfectly.  Ask yourself these questions and listen to yourself closely when you practice.  Does the vowel I am singing sound like the vowel i want? Is my voice ringing and buzzy? As I sing higher in my range do I stay consistent? Does my teacher demonstrate exactly what his "method" says it does?"

    About the Method and Teacher, Yes. About the voice NO, at least it did not until the correct teacher.

   As you know when Doing on your own you THINK you are using the correct vowel, or proper BUZZ or ping, The problem has always been that the The buzz is one aspect, the PING,Ring is another and the proper Vowel is an OFF vowel that consists of one vowel aspect for BUZZ another for the PING/RING and then you have vowel sound you want the public to believe you used.

     Yes, a few of the proper exercises will get you there and Fast(er) if you know how to do them properly and what they are meant to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To clarify I meant  does the vowel sound like the vowel should  if you are singing ee it's ee..oo is oo  ah is ah uh is uh etc

As far as ring I meant ring is ping ping is ring all the same buzz=clear balanced sound,  not breathy not dull not nasal etc . This is during practice not the sound you may be looking for in song style. 

I hope this clarifies :)

 

think simple dont don't complicate things :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree. The things to check if everything is fine are only very few. I think in most cases the more important question is actually what to do if it is not fine. The basic things to watch out for are very limited in most systems. CVT has only 3 basic principles, 4 Pillars has .. well .. 4 Pillars. The rest is mainly a matter of names. Does not really matter if you call it "buzz", "ring" or "twang".

The more important thing is what should I do if I sing an OH vowel and it sounds too closed, more like OO for example. But when I just open the vowel I crack. That's what the more detailed concepts are for, which will tell you that the acoustic load for the OH vowel is higher (especially in the high range) and you need to adjust support to sing it without cracking or let the OO-modification happen to get a lighter coordination.

I really like the basic paradigm you use @Danielformica, that of "vowel, pitch, intensity". The origin of all systems describing the act of singing is mainly to create a big table which combinations of vowel, pitch and intensity do work and which do not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

   Wouldn't it be easier to put a hole in the bottom of the cup? Then you can just keep poring and never have to worry about overflowing?

    Or  maybe empty the cup and refill it with more BS?   

     I understand what you are saying....... But unless you retain something from somewhere you will never know who is trying to fill your cup with BS and who is trying to fill with truth.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Daniel, My posts were not about your fine suggestion of do not over complicate things.

In my case for the Buzz, Ring, Ping and Vowel, The buzz itself is from the Vocal folds closing, The Ring and Ping is from the open throat(Throat space) The over all vowel is one that gives the BUZZ from the closed cords and the OPEN Space in the throat(resonance) and still gives the impression of the articulated vowel. Which may end up being a conglomeration of vowels.

     I never liked that Zen thing about the empty cup. For real critical thinking you must keep in mind that what you already know may be false. Therefore new concepts can replace instead of just overfilling. Empty cup lets anything in,  even utter nonsense,  without any filters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great post Dan.

I have learned by making so many mistakes, so many cracks, so many periods of failure.  Everything from dealing with a polyp, phlegm issues so bad (on stage) I could not guarantee I'd phonate, to almost passing out on stage.

But through it all, I have definitely learned, some by hard work and a little by sheer accident that the voice can go to places you cannot possibly imagine or predict. 

There is no such thing as "pre-wisdom."  It only arrives afterwards.

I feel the voice needs to be continually challenged.  It wants to be challenged, but you have to have the courage to go to those places, whatever they are, you have to figure out how to get the most out of your particular voice AND your mind.

You cannot take the safe route and expect to be really good at this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

There is no nonsense... there are only different perspectives. Each perspective defines terms in such a way as to elicit a specific response from the student.

If you grew up in an Italian operatic school you learned appogio, if you grew up in the Germanic school you learned their breathing method, etc. Either you can subscribe to the Italian school and bicker with the English school about which method is superior. Or you can acknowledge that the two schools are designed to produce two different types of singers. Neither school is wrong.

We can have personal opinions... strong ones.  But the end of of the day, our opinions are just that.. opinions. For us to assume that our opinions are accurate and to stop questioning our own understanding means to stop learning.

    exactly, My response to the ZEN cup thing was not a response to singing and studying or training. It was a response to the empty cup.

     I read and tried to study/train with "the Caruso method of singing". A book supposedly endorsed by Caruso at his peak. In reality Caruso did not contribute much. He just read through a few pages of the book and wrote an introduction. I could not follow what was written in the book.......... To many flowery words and sensations. I read and tried to follow Lilli Lehmanns book "How to sing". She also used flowery words but included mechanical details, some of which would be opposed by teachers here. Both were and are Great books after figuring out just what they were meaning.  In Lilli Lehmann's book she mentions connecting the E(i)  with the OO and hold them underneath with the Y.      WTF?    OK after Roberts Program......... E will give fold closure, OO will give the open space and pathway to the sinus cavities and the Y will keep the larynx  from jumping up by an anchoring kind of maneuver.  

      The books are fine nothing wrong with them. It is how we interpret the information that is the problem.  I agree that we never stop training and learning...............

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, VideoHere said:

You cannot take the safe route and expect to be really good at this.

This, right here. I was actually thinking about you, Bob, today on the way home from work and singing whatever. What sounds like "chest" up high is not being afraid. Do it, go for the sound that is full and loud rather than worrying about micrometer measures of fold tissue, as if anyone can do that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I think the point Daniel is trying to make, which I hope does not get lost or morph into another ongoing parsing of increasingly smaller gradations of this, that, and the other thing, is that if you stick to basic concepts and follow the sound you are making, you will be fine. You are going to have bad days, tired and overworked days, and absolutely phenomenal days. Other days where you learn that even though you like onion rings, they don't like you. Or, you forgot to bring the pink cowboy hat. (members who have been here a while will understand the inside joke on that.)

I like the point about vowels. When you find the sweet spot of a vowel, use that. Everything else tends to fall in line, at least that is how it has worked for me.

But maybe we will all still have our vantage points that lead to some more detailed work. Thinking of the vowel more than the word helped me tamed some onsets, which helped me from getting to heavy, or too light. Or at least allowed me to realize that I do not have to blast the folds. With the right vowel, I am already getting good volume.

Even though I simplify things for myself, I might just absolutely stink trying to explain it. Good thing I am not a vocal coach. I would have to pay the student. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

And now that you understand the concept that was nonsense the first time you read it.. what happens when you question whether or not the new concept is true? Is it true in all circumstances? That's what I mean by constantly emptying the cup.

What if you find out the underlying foundation your vocal technique is based on is inaccurate when you question it? Does that mean you start over? No! You just empty the cup again. I don't think this process ever stops!

My biggest break throughs have come not from questioning other people's ideas.; ie separating "B.S." from "truth." But from questioning the "truth" and foundation of my own techniques. What if the model of the voice I was using was wrong? What if all the time I spent gathering "truth"... what if all of that information was inaccurate? Then I reempty the cup and begin a new stage of learning.

The problem is that most of us never allow this process to complete itself. We get X amount of knowledge and become satisfied with it. We take on a certain perspective and become content with it. We don't allow the discomfort associated with not knowing to exist.

  " I never liked that Zen thing about the empty cup. For real critical thinking you must keep in mind that what you already know may be false. Therefore new concepts can replace instead of just overfilling. Empty cup lets anything in,  even utter nonsense,  without any filters. "

   You did not read or possibly understand that.

 This statement was still about emptying the cup. Truth is even found in BS.  I try to keep in mind that what I think I know now may be false. As a matter of fact science is ever changing. You are correct that if you THINK you have all the answers you know nothing. As others have said your voice changes from day to day. Part of the warming up is finding out how it is going to respond instead of just jumping in cold and discovering while in front of a crowd. That can suck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:


My ultimate point is that a lot of the science were using on this forum, and others, is not accurate. We're using models of the voice that are way too simple, theoretical, etc. Our attempts to then use this inaccurate science to justify pre-existing beliefs about our technique is over-complicating things.

We don't have to empty the cup and start as if we were beginners with no co-ordination. But we do need to empty the cup already.

Like normal, we are saying the same thing with a different point of view. Most of the things I took to be bad for the voice and tried get rid of ended up being what I needed to do. Including that last bit about the Lip bubble/ pig squeal thing that no one understood what I was talking about. It is all good. One mans pig squeal is another mans whimpering puppy. (figure that one out :)).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hate to be the one to say it (showing my age)...but we live in an "information age"

 

As pointed out by MDEW, books of the past (on all subjects) tended to have flowery language and sort of "glittering generalities" but not a lot of detailed information. Its only natural that as times progress, available information becomes deeper and deeper

 

IMO its not so much that the info itself is "wrong" or "right"...it just 'is".  Its up to the person to make the best use of it. One can either use the info for a boost, or be swallowed up in the confusion of info overload

 

LEARNING ISNT LINEAR!!!!!

 

me as an example. I decided to start singing sometime in 2015. I bought KTVA. Ken is a great singer and has helped a lot of people im sure....but for me I didnt get anything from the program. It is a bit disorganized and I myself can be pretty "unfocused" at times. if I have to wade thru folders to try to find information then im just going to bog down

But mainly KTVA is NOT technical at all. It is the hyper-opposite of T4PS

So for me T4PS helped get me going because I got a better idea of things like the hard and soft palates, detailed vowel mods etc. Those things may be MENTIONED in KTVA but not really in micro-detail like in T4PS

 

As i said, its up to the PERSON to use the info correctly. for instance I was trying to "bridge" from chest to headvoice but I didnt yet even HAVE a headvoice. I didnt understand what it felt like to resonate up on the palates etc. I was choking in the throat as I tried to go higher in pitch etc.  So I tried "lift up and pull back" but it didnt really do much for me because I still wasnt getting up on the palate or letting go of the throat. i was only choking lighter lol.

Then I finally realized "hmm, ive got to make the sound somewhere BESIDES my throat or ill keep choking" lol. So I managed to start resonating up on my palates and then 2 seconds later "bridging" ceased to even be an issue.

Of course THEN I was able to go to T4PS and look up that detailed info and actually put some detail into what my experimentation had taught me. So now not only can I resonate on the palates etc, I can understand end explain what I am doing

'

Its the same for the rest of the program. You might not get better BECAUSE you read about the Bernoulli effect or overlay distortion etc BUT all of that info has its place.

 

Just the physiology info alone has helped me a lot. Just knowing that a note can resonate in the throat, or on the palates or waaaaaayyyy up into the soft palate feeling like its up the back of the neck lol.....just that alone has helped me a lot as I sing into higher ranges.

 

The info about acoustic modes also helps.

 

Its a 2 way street. When I first read about edging and curbing and this vowel wants to edge and this vowel tends to want to be curbed etc it just made my head spin. But then as I just had fun experimenting (singing at work), I would start to make discoveries and I could go back and check those terms again and now it makes more sense. So not only can I curb and edge, I know more technically what I am doing as opposed to just winging it

 

I havent learned to sing better BECAUSE of this or that term but a lot of those terms have helped focus my experimentation. When I watched one of the vids about notes being placed more in the back of the head i was like "huh"?? (cognitive dissonance)     But then I was at work and I was trying to sing the song "hold me" by Fleetwood Mac where he says "there's noBOdy in the future" I was trying to hit that G4 cleanly and I was struggling but then I remembered about trying to feel it more in the back of the head and I got it lol. Now its childs play and I use the mental imagery to picture the higher notes sliding up the back of the throat etc (whatever works)

 

Props to Rob for the detail put into the system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a lot of teachers are using way too many terms and concepts... too many exercises etc... thus confusing the student.

The student doesn't need to know a lot of theory they just want to understand how the voice works in simple terms. I work on 3 things mainly:

- closure/airflow balance

- keeping a clear sound/buzz/ring whatever

- tuning vowels

And only use about 4 exercises per lesson and for song application the concepts are the same as in the exercices. With time the student learns how to correct him/herself because he/she can hear and feel when they are doing it right or wrong and what needs to be changed.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hahaha this is so fun! Daniel made a thread about keeping it simple and working smart and not overcomplicate. Thread goes completly crazy and turns into deep discussions about zen and karate methodologies:D 

Nice try Daniel clap clap ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jens said:

Hahaha this is so fun! Daniel made a thread about keeping it simple and working smart and not overcomplicate. Thread goes completly crazy and turns into deep discussions about zen and karate methodologies:D 

Nice try Daniel clap clap ;)

Daniel wrote:

"So what I am trying to say is if you want to be a great singer you only need to concern yourself with a FEW principles/exercises Practiced Perfectly.  Ask yourself these questions and listen to yourself closely when you practice.  Does the vowel I am singing sound like the vowel i want? Is my voice ringing and buzzy? As I sing higher in my range do I stay consistent? Does my teacher demonstrate exactly what his "method" says it does? "

Keep it simple. Good concept. Now, I can.   Without knowing where the Buzz, Ring and Ping comes from I could not(reference for the questions to ask yourself as proposed by Daniel).  

Let's face it we were all(or most of us) trying the simple exercises first(sometimes for years) and getting nowhere because we did not know how to do the exercises "Perfectly" or how to determine when we were getting off course.

Everything is simple when you know how until then ..........it gets a little complicated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Let's face it we were all(or most of us) trying the simple exercises first(sometimes for years) and getting nowhere because we did not know how to do the exercises "Perfectly" or how to determine when we were getting off course.

That's why you need a teacher.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Sexy Beast said:

That's why you need a teacher.

And the right teacher............. Even those who are Teachers now had been to several teachers and (Programs) without making progress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jens said:

Hahaha this is so fun! Daniel made a thread about keeping it simple and working smart and not overcomplicate. Thread goes completly crazy and turns into deep discussions about zen and karate methodologies:D 

Nice try Daniel clap clap ;)

 

That is pretty funny lol...and quite predictable

 

 

As I stated, there is a balance that can be achieved.

 

Right now, Jens, believe it or not, the only "exercise" I am doing is something from your video about "falsetto/headvoice" where you started off saying to work on the LIGHT connection between chest and head. So for about the last month or so I have been doing that at work using 10 vowels. I write the vowels on a sheet of paper and I do 5 sirens for each vowel. Each siren for me means I go "chest-head-chest-head-chest". After I go thru the 10 vowels, 5 sirens each, I then go thru all 10 vowels again but starting from head to chest.   So all added up it gets to be 100 sirens and each siren crosses the "bridge" 4 times. So thats 400 crosses of the bridge with light mass

 

Thats the ONLY exercise I have consistently done for maybe the last month. It doesnt get any more dead simple than that and its worked wonders for giving me a smooth connection to the higher ranges etc.

 

BUT I also have in the back of my mind the more advanced terms and concepts which I bring to mind of I hit a snag on a certain vowel (I struggle a bit with "ih" as in "sit")

 

So I feel that its possible to "keep it simple" as well as to be informed

 

Is that one exercise a complete program?? of course not. I obviously want and need to spend time working on some belting as well....but that ONE exercise has given me a great foundation

 

----

 

some of the guys here ONLY sing. I am trying to cover ALL of the bases. Singing, writing originals, playing guitar and bass. Right now the weak point in it all is my mixing and production skills...so I have been focused a lot on learning to mix and getting feedback from forums based on mixing and production.

The guys who ONLY sing can spend 4 hours per day getting as complicated as they want. A person like me simply doesnt have that options because I am trying to cover other aspects. I am forced to keep it simple

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mdew said "everything is simple when you know how until then ..........it gets a little complicated."

 

heres the the thing I never stopped using the simple concepts this is how I built a voice that is very reliable and consistent. Much like any other skill you may get bored and think there has to be more to it. But the really skillful rely on just a few principles and perfect practice. 

Oh and

@jens :) thanks 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

 But the really skillful rely on just a few principles and perfect practice. 
 

Baseball is a good analogy. The best in the world only do 3 basic things: Hit, catch, throw (and maybe some base running). They do the same as any little league player....they just do it REALLY well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Danielformica said:

Mdew said "everything is simple when you know how until then ..........it gets a little complicated."

 

heres the the thing I never stopped using the simple concepts this is how I built a voice that is very reliable and consistent. Much like any other skill you may get bored and think there has to be more to it. But the really skillful rely on just a few principles and perfect practice. 

Oh and

@jens :) thanks 

I do agree totally.  I now do a few simple exercises and warm ups. And NOW I have a better understanding of what I was supposed to be doing. Some of the exercises are the same as they always were. The Concept or perception of it is different.

You hear things like "Move" the tone forward" at the same time Resonate in the soft palate. When you do not know any different......... these are two different things and two different co-ordinations. These were exactly the things that confused me. Not from following different teachers or programs. The same teach describing the same exercise at the same moment without mentioning any way of doing that. You end up trying to figure out just exactly what they mean by that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You cannot take the safe route and expect to be really good at this.

A good singer is a dime a dozen.  I have nothing against the basics, but if you want to excel past good, it's gonna take a lot of work.

Getting better at technique (it never ends) = vocal eligibility.....But the mental component has to be worked on too.

Example: If one singer has success holding back their breath, another may not simply because they are not that person. If a teacher doesn't believe it's beneficial, does that mean you discard it?

You have to get to that point where you figure it all out for youself. Does this work for me?  Can I do this consistently and without vocal issues? Does this vowel shade work for me?  Does this exercise work for me?

It really takes confidence and courage..To quote Steve Walsh from Kansas:

All performing artists are very, very insecure. Why the hell else would we stand up on a stage and spout out and think we deserve the audience's applause at all if there wasn't some sort of insecurity? Trying to satisfy, that is incredibly difficult and boy, does it go away fast. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...