'Cry', Yawn, Support and Lifting of soft palate

[JonJon]

something MDEW said in my old siren thread. Makes good sense now for this thread

"One thing that people do not think about in terms of light singing and Heavy singing is that if you have a heavy cord closure or more mass to the folds as you ascend and approach the passaggio you reduce vocal mass before shifting. If you are already singing light you do not reduce mass you just increase pressure as you shift. If you are singing light and try to lighten more at the shift you will lose connection and flip to

falsetto."

 

Yes. I have been referencing "shedding weight" as you ascend. But if you are already really light to start with then you dont have anything TO shed and you might have to work more to maintain air pressure and cord closure etc

[MDEW]

31 minutes ago, JonJon said:

Yes. I have been referencing "shedding weight" as you ascend. But if you are already really light to start with then you dont have anything TO shed and you might have to work more to maintain air pressure and cord closure etc

SLS teaches you how to achieve cord closure but does not teach how to maintain that closure with a bigger sound. When singing for real, even when singing a lighter mass you are still using a bigger sound than Speech Level. At least do your Edit: Yes something odd is going on Here. Half of my post just got eaten.

[JonJon]

4 minutes ago, MDEW said:

SLS teaches you how to achieve cord closure but does not teach how to maintain that closure with a bigger sound. When singing for real, even when singing a lighter mass you are still using a bigger sound than Speech Level. At least do your Edit: Yes something odd is going on Here. Half of my post just got eaten.

yeah, im having to do the old school "select all" and copy, before I post my magnum opus length posts lol. I lost a good one earlier

[MDEW]

Long story short. A hooty OO will get you into head resonance. You can do a Hooty OO like a baby owl thin and small or like a Giant owl Big and deep. Small sound is high larynx. Big sound is Dropped larynx or as Roberts puts it Dampened Larynx. With SLS's Goo's and Gee's you default to the Small Owl. With Roberts Formant tuning, Dampened Larynx, Lift up and Pull Back,  you default to the Big Owl.

    The big owl will allow Volume and stability, The little owl will have you flip into falsetto.

[muffinhead]

hmm it seems that TMV world is acting up with the posts. 

[muffinhead]

1 hour ago, JonJon said:

sirenssirens  

okay, I have these really junky ones that I did on the actual day I learned to bridge lol. or, the day I became conscious of singing up on the palates as I call it. Singing in headvoice, letting go of the tight throat resonance etc

its actually fun to look back on these...they are not quite 6 months old and to me now they sound totally horrendous! My range and control has gotten so much better

In any case here is what a novice siren might sound like. You gradually leave the chest resonance and embrace the head resonance or vice versa

up https://clyp.it/ceg054c2

down https://clyp.it/zkqvnmqi

 

 

Did you learn to sing up to C5 as soon as you learned to bridge? I've learned how to bridge and I'm still stuck at A#4. Such a pain...

[JonJon]

Well those sirens were actually the first time id ever bridged lol. Thats "sort of" a c5, not that great though.

of course I was 48 at the time and had sang high notes using falsettofalset falsetto or reinforced falsetto for years. So there was already some foundation laid for higher notes etc

and for the last several months ive done lots of high sirens and can now actually siren up closer to like f#5. Been working on that some lately, there is another bridge up there. That doesnt mean I can smoothly articulate lyrics up there though!

Now im starting to work on belting some belting because ive never really trained it yet. My belting belting sux

----------------------------------------------

stuck at A#4? yeah, somehow have to learn to use more resonance up in the soft palate etc....or even feel the note" in the back of the head" lol

Surely you can make some squeaks or hoots or SOMETHING above A#4 though cant you? sometimes u can play with those noises and bring them down to lessen the gap etc

 

Sometimes I use pictures to sing with. Like, sometimes u cant just "push" a note higher. I picture a crane or a suction cup reaching down and "pulling" the note up. You are trying to go from one resonance to a higher one and maybe different mechanisms are involved etc. They need to meet and link up. Sometimes the higher one has to reach down to get the note etc. At least thats the mental imagery I use

[Sexy Beast]

Just for the record: Singing Success is not SLS it's a vocal program. Studying with an SLS teacher is not the same as using the Singing Success program. There's nothing wrong with goo, gee, mum, or whatever exercise you may label as SLS. It's how you do those exercises that counts not the exercise itself. That's why you need a teacher. And that's also why I personally don't believe in vocal programs.

Yes there are a lot of bad teachers out there, some SLS some not.

"Speech Level" doesn't mean you have to sing with a low volume and no support... It's more about not pushing and reaching up and down for notes... There's nothing wrong with singing big as long as you do it with good technique.

[muffinhead]

27 minutes ago, JonJon said:

Well those sirens were actually the first time id ever bridged lol. Thats "sort of" a c5, not that great though.

of course I was 48 at the time and had sang high notes using falsettofalset falsetto or reinforced falsetto for years. So there was already some foundation laid for higher notes etc

and for the last several months ive done lots of high sirens and can now actually siren up closer to like f#5. Been working on that some lately, there is another bridge up there. That doesnt mean I can smoothly articulate lyrics up there though!

Now im starting to work on belting some belting because ive never really trained it yet. My belting belting sux

----------------------------------------------

stuck at A#4? yeah, somehow have to learn to use more resonance up in the soft palate etc....or even feel the note" in the back of the head" lol

Surely you can make some squeaks or hoots or SOMETHING above A#4 though cant you? sometimes u can play with those noises and bring them down to lessen the gap etc

 

Sometimes I use pictures to sing with. Like, sometimes u cant just "push" a note higher. I picture a crane or a suction cup reaching down and "pulling" the note up. You are trying to go from one resonance to a higher one and maybe different mechanisms are involved etc. They need to meet and link up. Sometimes the higher one has to reach down to get the note etc. At least thats the mental imagery I use

I've found that visualization of singing can help or hurt my performance. As of late, I've realized that I often subconsciously raise my head and hands when I sing high notes. I've tried to correct that, and it seems to helping a bit. And I was referring to the highest note I can phonate in head voice that sounds halfway decent. The highest note I can phonate is around a C6, but nobody would ever want to hear that in music, or ever for that matter (it sounds like some kind of exotic bird call, in the worst way). 

[JonJon]

7 minutes ago, muffinhead said:

 And I was referring to the highest note I can phonate in head voice that sounds halfway decent. The highest note I can phonate is around a C6,

that lets you know that eventually you can bring those two endpoints together. The one coming up from the bottom has to gradually become more like the one up on top etc

[muffinhead]

6 minutes ago, JonJon said:

that lets you know that eventually you can bring those two endpoints together. The one coming up from the bottom has to gradually become more like the one up on top etc

If I had that usable range nothing could stop me lol. 

[Draven Grey]

7 minutes ago, muffinhead said:

If I had that usable range nothing could stop me lol. 

You will.

[muffinhead]

18 minutes ago, Draven Grey said:

You will.

Love the positivity and confidence you have in me. Thanks. 

[Robert Lunte]

5 hours ago, MDEW said:

I have to agree with that. SLS is not know for their support and energy work.

I know it might seem like I have an additional agenda here other then just giving advise, but not really. The fact is, The SLS and SS stuff is just way too light and lacking on muscle development that is required for MOST people to ever bridge consistently or sing in the head voice in a way that could be acceptable to an audience. Why? They simply don't understand how to train it. It is just not that great.

[ronws]

5 hours ago, muffinhead said:

Love the positivity and confidence you have in me. Thanks. 

I think you misunderstood Draven. What he means is that you are the greatest obstacle to what you want to achieve. I have found that improving on singing mainly involved getting out of my own way, to learn how to walk without stepping on my own feet, so to speak.

You said if you had that range nothing will stop you. He said, you will. That means that you can often hinder yourself with preconceptions about what you can or cannot do, what you think is happening to make a sound, which may be different from reality.

But can you sing that range? Yes, you will.

[Draven Grey]

4 minutes ago, ronws said:

I think you misunderstood Draven. What he means is that you are the greatest obstacle to what you want to achieve. I have found that improving on singing mainly involved getting out of my own way, to learn how to walk without stepping on my own feet, so to speak.

You said if you had that range nothing will stop you. He said, you will. That means that you can often hinder yourself with preconceptions about what you can or cannot do, what you think is happening to make a sound, which may be different from reality.

But can you sing that range? Yes, you will.

Bravo! This is exactly my intent from my words. @muffinhead, I see you working hard in TFPOS. I have no doubt you can do whatever you want with your voice as long as you stay determined to do so. Don't let "I wish I could..." or "If only..." ever stand in the way of knowing you'll reach your goals because you will stop at nothing to do so.

I don't want to hijack this thread though. So to relate that back... I've had a lot of pleasure teaching an SLS student how to belt. They have amazing control of their voice. Sadly, I've yet to meet one that has the strength to sing in a full voice after a few notes above their bridge.

[MDEW]

21 minutes ago, Draven Grey said:

Bravo! This is exactly my intent from my words. @muffinhead, I see you working hard in TFPOS. I have no doubt you can do whatever you want with your voice as long as you stay determined to do so. Don't let "I wish I could..." or "If only..." ever stand in the way of knowing you'll reach your goals because you will stop at nothing to do so.

I don't want to hijack this thread though. So to relate that back... I've had a lot of pleasure teaching an SLS student how to belt. They have amazing control of their voice. Sadly, I've yet to meet one that has the strength to sing in a full voice after a few notes above their bridge.

They Do teach strengthening the voice. It is just that the students do not realize that is what they need to do. SLS will teach you how to get closure with Goo and Gee, then they will have you add mass by opening towards Ah or Oh. The student is supposed to see that you need more air and pressure to maintain the closure  when adding mass. I do not think they come right out and express that. I guess the student is supposed to make that connection himself. What SOME of the SLS teachers fail to realize is that the student may fail to make that connection or maybe the teacher himself is just following the program.

   But what is expected is that you add volume and mass over time without using enough pressure to lose the connection.

[muffinhead]

Oh, OK. My apologies for misunderstanding, Draven. Definitely something to keep in mind in my journey as a singer. 

[The Future Vocalist]

7 hours ago, Sexy Beast said:

That's why you need a teacher. And that's also why I personally don't believe in vocal programs.

But what about 4 Pillars which is a vocal program? You don't believe in Rob's program?

[Rockstar]

11 hours ago, JonJon said:

sirenssirens  

okay, I have these really junky ones that I did on the actual day I learned to bridge lol. or, the day I became conscious of singing up on the palates as I call it. Singing in headvoice, letting go of the tight throat resonance etc

its actually fun to look back on these...they are not quite 6 months old and to me now they sound totally horrendous! My range and control has gotten so much better

In any case here is what a novice siren might sound like. You gradually leave the chest resonance and embrace the head resonance or vice versa

up https://clyp.it/ceg054c2

down https://clyp.it/zkqvnmqi

 

 

Wow those are way awesome compared to mine. I've been learning to bridge for years now but cannot do it the way you do. Your voice thins out perfectly as you go higher and there is no apparent change of vocal tone as you go from chest to head. That quality that you have on the high notes (more prominent on the A4) is what I'm looking for. It doesn't sound like headvoice but a thinned out chestvoice. I cannot achieve that lightness. If I back off weight, they become weird and whiny.
How did you learn that? Please give me some pointers.

[JonJon]

rockstar,

I dont know brother. You start off in one resonance and you gradually hand it off to the higher resonance.

You start off with the sound in your throat and as you go higher you gradually let the sound start moving up into your sinus cavities and up into your head etc

One thing I was doing, by accident, was pushing my chest voice way up. That was before I knew how to go into the head voice. I would just push the chest voice up higher and higher until I choked out. You can also do that with your head voice coming down. You can bring your headvoice down, without going into chest voice, until your headvoice wont go any lower and it just falls apart.

So lets say I can take my chest voice up to B4 and I can bring my headvoice down to E4. Well then obviously I should be able to smoothly blend them together when I bridge. I am just making those numbers up but you see what I am saying

 

If you are making good notes in chest voice and good notes in headvoice, then you should be able to smoothly connect them. its hard to put into words, its just a "feel" thing. As you go up you "feel" the chest voice becoming harder to do but at the same time you can "feel" the note being taken by the headvoice. In that bridge area you are feeling both chest and head voices

[Rockstar]

@Daniel, I wanted to read whatever you posted but something's wrong with the forum. 
Here's my siren: 

Here's me singing without cry (upto E flat) after that I have to cry or add support to go higher and hence cannot carry the 'pretty' clear tone up. 
 

[Gneetapp]

6 hours ago, Rockstar said:

@Daniel, I wanted to read whatever you posted but something's wrong with the forum. 
Here's my siren: 

Here's me singing without cry (upto E flat) after that I have to cry or add support to go higher and hence cannot carry the 'pretty' clear tone up. 
 

So, in the first clip you sang up to a C5/C5#. And in the 2nd clip it sounded like a light head voice to me. I think this is a classic example of the difference between singing notes or sirens and singing songs with words. So, the guys might be right, and you need to strengthen your chest voice up to your passaggio.

[MDEW]

1 hour ago, Gneetapp said:

So, in the first clip you sang up to a C5/C5#. And in the 2nd clip it sounded like a light head voice to me. I think this is a classic example of the difference between singing notes or sirens and singing songs with words. So, the guys might be right, and you need to strengthen your chest voice up to your passaggio.

 

6 hours ago, Rockstar said:

@Daniel, I wanted to read whatever you posted but something's wrong with the forum. 
Here's my siren: 

Here's me singing without cry (upto E flat) after that I have to cry or add support to go higher and hence cannot carry the 'pretty' clear tone up. 
 

I agree with Gneetap and Jonjon.

In the second clip you said yourself you are singing without cry or support. You need to start off with support. Rather start of with enough Volume and Air pressure for the notes.

Singing is very close to controlled yelling or Calling. Soft singing takes more support not less support because you still need the same amount of energy in the sound but holding back loudness at the same time.

 

[MDEW]

6 hours ago, Rockstar said:

@Daniel, I wanted to read whatever you posted but something's wrong with the forum. 
Here's my siren: 

Here's me singing without cry (upto E flat) after that I have to cry or add support to go higher and hence cannot carry the 'pretty' clear tone up. 
 

Sometimes the meaning of words gets us confused. For your second song, consider it this way, You are crying out to some one across a field or to the back of the room. Even the lower notes are still cried out as if to get someones attention from far away.  Not Yelling but Calling to someone.