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What happens after the training is complete?

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Just something I have been thinking about for the last 2 days.
I see these people online advertising singing lesson in categories of novice, intermediate and advanced.
And I know there are quite a few teachers that use this forum that would use the same categories.
But do you often have an advanced student that has been with you a long time where comes the time there is not much more you can teach them and there training is complete?
If this is the case what do they normally do after this point?

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My advanced students often do short bursts of lessons when they are getting ready to tour, go into the recording studio, audition, or take on another important project. However, I do have a couple of advanced students that continue to take lessons and have been with me for quite a while. They are pretty active in their careers and are contsntaly pushing the limites of their voice or exploring new ideas. Being advanced, I often feel more like a sounding board or third-person point-of-view for them than I do a teacher.

I personally prefer working iwth more advanced students, but intermediate students tend to be more consistent and aloow more time to build a friendship. Beginning students are all over the map. Some are serious about becoming intermediate or advanced and stay with me for years, others are just "trying out" singing and often only last a couple of lessons, some only want it for their own enjoyment and are happy after 3 months, some don't even want to sing but rather are public speakers, presenters, or simply want to talk over the music at concerts without losing their voice.

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1 hour ago, Draven Grey said:

My advanced students often do short bursts of lessons when they are getting ready to tour, go into the recording studio, audition, or take on another important project. However, I do have a couple of advanced students that continue to take lessons and have been with me for quite a while. They are pretty active in their careers and are contsntaly pushing the limites of their voice or exploring new ideas.

So are you saying most of your completed advanced students become professionals in the music industry?

 

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1 hour ago, 2 cats in a dust bin said:

So are you saying most of your completed advanced students become professionals in the music industry?

 

Not all of them. Several of them are doing pretty well, while others just wanted to learn it for themselves. Most of the time theydon't have the dedication and determination it takes to become more advanced, unless they do want to make a career out of it. For many years, I also coached bands across the world in building their business and careers, signed and unsigned. I still offer that to my students that want it. I wrote books and courses about it, but they're not published anymore.

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17 minutes ago, Draven Grey said:

Not all of them. Several of them are doing pretty well, while others just wanted to learn it for themselves. Most of the time theydon't have the dedication and determination it takes to become more advanced, unless they do want to make a career out of it. For many years, I also coached bands across the world in building their business and careers, signed and unsigned. I still offer that to my students that want it. I wrote books and courses about it, but they're not published anymore.

Ow I see; some of your more advanced students just wanted to do it as a hobby.
But the others who made a  career out of it; is that because they had a family who where into the music industry and opened up the right doors for them, or where they just people who started from scratch wanting to make a go of it for them self?

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52 minutes ago, 2 cats in a dust bin said:

Ow I see; some of your more advanced students just wanted to do it as a hobby.
But the others who made a  career out of it; is that because they had a family who where into the music industry and opened up the right doors for them, or where they just people who started from scratch wanting to make a go of it for them self?

None of them had any special priveledges from family. They all built themselves up from zero. Come to think of it, mos people I know, even the Millionaires and Billionaires I know did the same.

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18 minutes ago, 2 cats in a dust bin said:

I had to ask because they say it's not what you know its who you know
Look at the American presidents, they had to be very wealthy or had family member who where x presidents them self's
 

I like the extended saying, "It's not what you know, but who you know, and if you're worth knowing."

"Who you know" has nothing to do with already having connections, rather it's about making the connections you need. Similary, "being in the right place at the right time" isn't about luck, it's about figuring out what that place and time is and and making sure you're there.

To dispel another preconcieved notion...Nobody gets "discovered" anymore either, but rather has to prove themselves a solid investment. I would argue that even in the time period when people were "discovered" it still had to do with being percieved as a valuable investment. The industry was just more willing to take bigger risks back then and do more work to get the artist off the ground. These days, you have to already be "off the ground" and proviong your worth through success, much like any otehr investment.

Another thing people rarely do the math on is what a record deal actually looks like. They're still sold on the dream. In reality, although it's great to have a team handling most all of your business, product development, and marketing, a record deal is usually a pretty horrible way to do it. In a good deal, they give you an advance that you have to pay back out of your 10% cut of the profits. Even on the surface, that's a loan with 900% interest! If you consider all the expenses before profits, the fact that they add to that debt with everything they spend money on, and that they take over most, if not all, of the creative control, then the deal looks much worse than a loan with 900% interest. Add to that the fact that these days you must prove yoursleves a good investment to begin with, and suddenly a bank loan and hiring your own team (or hiring the label as a service) looks much better. 

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If your Ego is in check and you're  not a ego maniac training is never done.. I still study and I am a teacher. Because you always need someone better than yourself to listen if not you are only fooling yourself into thinking or believing you're voice is balanced. What you feel and what the teacher hears are 2 separate things. 

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On 19/01/2017 at 7:29 PM, Draven Grey said:

I like the extended saying, "It's not what you know, but who you know, and if you're worth knowing."

:24::lol:

 

On 19/01/2017 at 7:29 PM, Draven Grey said:

To dispel another preconcieved notion...Nobody gets "discovered" anymore either, but rather has to prove themselves a solid investment. I would argue that even in the time period when people were "discovered" it still had to do with being percieved as a valuable investment. The industry was just more willing to take bigger risks back then and do more work to get the artist off the ground. These days, you have to already be "off the ground" and proviong your worth through success, much like any otehr investment.

Are we talking high end of the market where the singer wishes to write there own song and have it produced and published by a recording studio by a record deal.
Or the bottom of the market where the singer sells them self to pubs, clubs, weddings to perform live covering other peoples work?

If it is the high end of the market then surly if the singer can sing well and has a nice song that sound nice to everyone then surly is that no enough for proving their worth.
If it is the bottom end of the market then how is the singer supposed to be "off the ground" and proving there worth through success If they have never sang live before and just completed there training (Is this not catch 22)?

There is a member on this forum that has started without a singing voice and by the sounds of things trained bloody dam hard (piano as well).
He relished a song last year and has just done a new one which he said will be relished at the beginning of this year. 
I don't know the full story but by the sounds of things most of his cover work was based upon the band "Keane".
So on that note it sounds like he started with nothing and worked very hard and become a professional singer and song writer; but by the sound of things I think a lot of his family where all singers them self's

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"Proving their worth" in a business and investment context means proving they can make good money off their product to where it would increase by a lot if they were given a large sum and, in the case of record labels, put through their marketing machine. Have you ever watched Shark Tank? I think it shows example after example of what an investor sees as a good or bad investment. The vast majority of the time, it comes down to their sales numbers. A Bank would want to see similar numbers as proof and the growth plan. Any investor would. A record label is no different.

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For a solo act or cover band playing in Pubs, you prove your worth by bringing in new customers and having them drink more. Just sounding good is not important.

I know several singers and bands around my area that are just mediocre but they have the personality of a drinking buddy that gets more people in the door and a party atmosphere conducive to more sales of alcohol.

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33 minutes ago, MDEW said:

For a solo act or cover band playing in Pubs, you prove your worth by bringing in new customers and having them drink more. Just sounding good is not important.

I know several singers and bands around my area that are just mediocre but they have the personality of a drinking buddy that gets more people in the door and a party atmosphere conducive to more sales of alcohol.

Yep. You prove good for the business investing in you (money, time, or their reputation) and not just good at your art. There are plenty who aren't good at art but still makes the sells and get big money backers because of it. Or, in the case you mentioned, MDEW, venues investing time and reputation in them.

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1 hour ago, Draven Grey said:

"Proving their worth" in a business and investment context means proving they can make good money off their product to where it would increase by a lot if they were given a large sum and, in the case of record labels, put through their marketing machine.

So its the after sales and the stuff that dose not really matter to the likes of the people on this forum that determines if they will make it or not on the big time

 

38 minutes ago, MDEW said:

For a solo act or cover band playing in Pubs, you prove your worth by bringing in new customers and having them drink more. Just sounding good is not important.

I know several singers and bands around my area that are just mediocre but they have the personality of a drinking buddy that gets more people in the door and a party atmosphere conducive to more sales of alcohol.

I'm sure you are right 

But I have always though to myself 95% of it is the singing and 5% is the dancing and if the singing is there then the rest is the icing on the cake

But I might be wrong.

But do those mediocre singer charge a decent price for the night or just $100?

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4 minutes ago, 2 cats in a dust bin said:

So its the after sales and the stuff that dose not really matter to the likes of the people on this forum that determines if they will make it or not on the big time

 

Where do you get the idea that it doesn't matter to the people here? A lot of us run businesses, even a band or solo career is a business. Of course the measures of success matter to us. And like any business, "making it" "in the big time" (whatever that means) is measurable by key metrics, one of those being sales. No money = no sustainable business.

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4 minutes ago, 2 cats in a dust bin said:

So its the after sales and the stuff that dose not really matter to the likes of the people on this forum that determines if they will make it or not on the big time

 

I'm sure you are right 

But I have always though to myself 95% of it is the singing and 5% is the dancing and if the singing is there then the rest is the icing on the cake

But I might be wrong.

But do those mediocre singer charge a decent price for the night or just $100?

I am in Mid-east coast U.S. Relatively small towns. Most Pubs will not pay more than $375 total for a full band in one night. A full band is usually 5 piece + roadies if you have them. Do the math. You are lucky if you actually get $100 in one nights work.

Back in the early 80's I was in a cover band, we were hired to play background music to those riding an electric bull during the Urban Cowboy days. Middle of the week, Wednesday night, The capacity of the club was around 700 people. The average on a Wednesday night for bull riding was about 75 people.That includes those who leave early and those come in late. By the end of the first month the place was filled to capacity. We were let go. No one was riding the bull and they were dancing instead.

     We were payed $300 total for a 5 piece band and 3 roadies. They were renting the bull for $500 a night. They said they were loosing money. They kept the Bull. Evidently electric Bull riders drink more than young women and the young men who chase them combined.

 

 

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21 hours ago, MDEW said:

I am in Mid-east coast U.S. Relatively small towns. Most Pubs will not pay more than $375 total for a full band in one night. A full band is usually 5 piece + roadies if you have them. Do the math. You are lucky if you actually get $100 in one nights work.

I have looked online to find the answer "how much dose a professional singer get for a nights work"
And the answer is how long is a piece of string, if can range from $50-$50000 a night
The Crown in shap had a local band in who charged them £160 for the night (don't know what they sounded like)
Daren in the George said that singer he had on that night was £500 (but she could sing) and the band on Halloween night well that was big big money.

Is that £375 dollars for a mediocre band?
How much do you think a singer gets on a cruise ship?

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2 hours ago, 2 cats in a dust bin said:

I have looked online to find the answer "how much dose a professional singer get for a nights work"
And the answer is how long is a piece of string, if can range from $50-$50000 a night
The Crown in shap had a local band in who charged them £160 for the night (don't know what they sounded like)
Daren in the George said that singer he had on that night was £500 (but she could sing) and the band on Halloween night well that was big big money.

Is that £375 dollars for a mediocre band?
How much do you think a singer gets on a cruise ship?

     Of course it depends on how far you want to travel, for how long of a time and what kind of show you can put on and what you want to go through to keep the job. Most people will get started by taking the lower paying jobs to get their foot in the door, so to speak, and build their reputation. Of course you could go the other way and take the big paying job and take the chance of getting booted without pay for not being what the employer wanted or expected.

     Even if you get a booking agent or manager to search for better jobs for you, you must prove yourself to the booking agent. Either way you will not be hired until you prove yourself to someone who has connections.

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18 hours ago, MDEW said:

Even if you get a booking agent or manager to search for better jobs for you, you must prove yourself to the booking agent. Either way you will not be hired until you prove yourself to someone who has connections.

What/ who are these booking agents; do they work like an employment agency?

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5 hours ago, 2 cats in a dust bin said:

What/ who are these booking agents; do they work like an employment agency?

Some of them do. If a cruise ship wanted an entertainer their "Booking Agent" or "Entertaining Director" would either contact an Agency or a "Manager" about booking the singer or Band. They would already have an idea about what type of entertainment they wanted. They would not just hear somebody singing on the street and say "Hey Buddy, want a job singing on a cruise ship?". If they do, you better check that person out or you may end up walking home from the middle of a cruise.

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21 hours ago, MDEW said:

Some of them do. If a cruise ship wanted an entertainer their "Booking Agent" or "Entertaining Director" would either contact an Agency or a "Manager" about booking the singer or Band. They would already have an idea about what type of entertainment they wanted. They would not just hear somebody singing on the street and say "Hey Buddy, want a job singing on a cruise ship?". If they do, you better check that person out or you may end up walking home from the middle of a cruise.

Just out of curiosity (not that I am even going to think about contacting one in this early stage) but where do you find these agents?

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On 1/19/2017 at 3:15 PM, Danielformica said:

If your Ego is in check and you're  not a ego maniac training is never done.. I still study and I am a teacher. Because you always need someone better than yourself to listen if not you are only fooling yourself into thinking or believing you're voice is balanced. What you feel and what the teacher hears are 2 separate things. 

This is so true.

On 1/20/2017 at 5:17 PM, MDEW said:

For a solo act or cover band playing in Pubs, you prove your worth by bringing in new customers and having them drink more. Just sounding good is not important.

I know several singers and bands around my area that are just mediocre but they have the personality of a drinking buddy that gets more people in the door and a party atmosphere conducive to more sales of alcohol.

That's the bottom line, and a hard pill to swallow.   Bars aren't meeting places anymore which I think has a lot to do with it.  There's no more natural crowds...thank the internet for that.  Here we are studying to become better and better singers to play to an audience that really doesn't go to see local cover bands too much any more.

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