Tyrone Akiel

Loving T4P! feels like an academy - Questions for Rob

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First of all, just thought it would be nice to point out that i sent this question to Rob by email. And he sent me here, so that he could answer it in public and everyone could benefit. What a nice guy Rob is. Been learning a lot from his program, still studying and working on all the stuff, registered not long ago. It's quite a lot of content to fully diggest and grasp!.  And most of all, actually apply!. Which is awesome of course, haven't had a course as detailed/comprehensive as this one. Not even close. Before i bought it i was actually wondering why many people called it "comprehensive", now it makes total sense. And the time i spent wondering on if i should get it, could have been spent further studying and applying the techniques. So i encourage others to start ASAP.

On to the question, might be a rather simple question, that i probably know the answer too but just am not concious enough to apply it, it can be easy to forget. So of course asking will save me the doubts. And hopefully others as well.

This quote from the program/book "Engaging the respiratory system sufficiently to optimize your phonations as a singer is not intuitive for the body. Even after 30 years of singing, training and teaching around the world, i still, to this day, have to be very conscientious of engaging my respiratory support when i train and sing. If i do not, just like everyone else, i start sounding like a duck (and get tired from all the squeezing)."

So basically what i took from this was, concious support is mandatory, both in training and singing. Basically you should ALWAYS engage some sort of support. Both in training and singing?.
Now i didn't include this part in the email but i want too add a question, how "key" is this?. I think a lot of students these days need a lot of "value guidance" in order to fully recognize what they should be working on. It seems self explanatory, but on a scale of 1/5 - i'd like to know where this stands specifically in your program. Just for perspective.

Which btw reminds me of a feature i really liked in the program, in which Rob basically does what i just said. He outlines the most "key" lessons to work on of every section/module. And of course each one also has long detailed descriptions/ illustrations / examples / and my favorite - benefits and troubleshooting. He clearly put A LOT of effort into this. Very thoughtful effort, might i add. Since a lot of programs out there don't go into such detail. 

Anyways, That's the question. (With some extra rambling included).

Heck in a sense that's a mini review. Although i could say a lot more. Rob deserves the praise.

Also thanks Rob for encouraging me to get registered, there is clearly a lot of value in this forum i was missing on.

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I would put respiratory support at a 5 out of 5. Different techniques require a bit different of a balance (glottal and subglottal pressure), but havign the "external" or "third-party" support effecting glottal closure without having to directly squeeze down on the glottis helps immensely. As an example. The last 20-minute set I did on television, I decided I didn't want to be loud, so I backed off in repiratory support. The room was small, I could easily clip the mics, and I wanted to play it safe. Normally, I can sing 2 to 3 hours at full volume before I get tired and need a break. Without the good rspiratory support to help me through it, I barely made it to the end of our last song. In fact, even 15 minutes in I starting struggling. The rest of my phonation package was worn out very quickly simply from not having that extra help from appoggio.

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4 hours ago, Draven Grey said:

I would put respiratory support at a 5 out of 5. Different techniques require a bit different of a balance (glottal and subglottal pressure), but havign the "external" or "third-party" support effecting glottal closure without having to directly squeeze down on the glottis helps immensely. As an example. The last 20-minute set I did on television, I decided I didn't want to be loud, so I backed off in repiratory support. The room was small, I could easily clip the mics, and I wanted to play it safe. Normally, I can sing 2 to 3 hours at full volume before I get tired and need a break. Without the good rspiratory support to help me through it, I barely made it to the end of our last song. In fact, even 15 minutes in I starting struggling. The rest of my phonation package was worn out very quickly simply from not having that extra help from appoggio.

Wow, that example certainly helps to just realize and emphasize the importance of support then. If i may ask, are you going full appogio? or just doing certain aspects?. As in, extrinsic anchoring/pushing down and out/ open throat?. Before starting to study T4P what i saw most programs taught was just pushing down and out. Well, some didn't even talk about it. But that's usually what you see mentioned.

Thanks for dropping by and leaving your experience/thoughts, i'm equally interested on the importance of it used in training though. As it certainly seems to be a concious thing one must practice. I need to be more concious about it.

Btw, not sure if it matters now. But Dravens testimonial on youtube was the main one that informed me on the effectiveness of the program. I probably bought the program not long after that. Seeing him participate in the forums is cool and just reinforces the testimonial.

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I'm glad I brought you here! I'm glad to help however I can!

I often go full appoggio, but it's not always necessary. There are definitely softer parts of songs. However, even on softer parts, proper respiratory balance is a must for longevity and consistency. I use extrinsic anchoring a lot too, but I'm training to rely more on intrinsic anchoring (especially in embouchure, since my tendency is to open vertically on higher notes which isn't the most pleasant sound, haha!). As for "the push" for volume. I have a couple of students who are Yoga teachers and refused to do it that way. I had to search for a better way, especially given their explanation of the horrible things that can do to the pelvic floor and your internal organs. Now I teach to pull in or tighten the stomach slightly when breathing in to the kidneys or lwoer, which causes the air to expand the obliques instead. Then when colume is needed, "lean the ladder" the other way. In other words, lean into the abs, even while keeping the slightly tightened. It makes the lungs work more like bellows, and give much more diaphramal control than breathing with the stomach out and pushing down for volume/support.

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4 hours ago, Draven Grey said:

I'm glad I brought you here! I'm glad to help however I can!

I often go full appoggio, but it's not always necessary. There are definitely softer parts of songs. However, even on softer parts, proper respiratory balance is a must for longevity and consistency. I use extrinsic anchoring a lot too, but I'm training to rely more on intrinsic anchoring (especially in embouchure, since my tendency is to open vertically on higher notes which isn't the most pleasant sound, haha!). As for "the push" for volume. I have a couple of students who are Yoga teachers and refused to do it that way. I had to search for a better way, especially given their explanation of the horrible things that can do to the pelvic floor and your internal organs. Now I teach to pull in or tighten the stomach slightly when breathing in to the kidneys or lwoer, which causes the air to expand the obliques instead. Then when colume is needed, "lean the ladder" the other way. In other words, lean into the abs, even while keeping the slightly tightened. It makes the lungs work more like bellows, and give much more diaphramal control than breathing with the stomach out and pushing down for volume/support.

Wow! - interesting. So basically instead of down and out, you now prefer tighten the stomach?. That's what i understood. Maybe it's more elaborate than that, and i just didn't understand completely.

Have you and robert talked about such?, i don't believe T4P mentions tighten stomach breathing?. So that could be an interesting conversation.  And maybe a similar concept could appear in a future T4P update, who knows.

Thanks for sharing Draven!.
 

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It's not really tightening, it's leaning in and out. It has a similar feel and function to the push downward, but the mentality of it changes the structure enough that it tends to stablilize more and not put undue pressure on the pelvic floor. When I want to get really loud, I still push down, but even then I think about it differently than I used to and mentally push more into the abs than I do downward. Either way, you end up moving the diaphram much more slowly and controlled than ignoring the abdominal pressure altogether. I don't think it's contrary to the way TFPOS teaches it, I think it's complimentary. In many ways, it's a matter of semantics. But I think it's a crucial distinction of semantics for a better visualization and thus better support when a student is simply just pushing as hard as they can downward. See the video below. I don't like Trimble's vocal style, and there are many things he's doing to the contrary of contemporary singing. But this way of achieving breath support is someting to consider when learning Robert's method. Again, not cnotrary to, but to help adjust your sensations, visualization, and technique to achieve the end result faster.

I teach a few things differently than Robert, but again, not to the contrary. For instance, I have my students use a stirring straw for warmups, cool downs, and even when trying to get the sensation of tuning the formant, proper pressure balance, and relaxation of compression. IT's just another way to achieve the same sensation that has helped my students learn the TVS methodology faster.

 

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19 hours ago, Tyrone Akiel said:

First of all, just thought it would be nice to point out that i sent this question to Rob by email. And he sent me here, so that he could answer it in public and everyone could benefit. What a nice guy Rob is. Been learning a lot from his program, still studying and working on all the stuff, registered not long ago. It's quite a lot of content to fully diggest and grasp!.  And most of all, actually apply!. Which is awesome of course, haven't had a course as detailed/comprehensive as this one. Not even close. Before i bought it i was actually wondering why many people called it "comprehensive", now it makes total sense. And the time i spent wondering on if i should get it, could have been spent further studying and applying the techniques. So i encourage others to start ASAP.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about 4Pillars Tyrone, I appreciate it of course, but also people that want to learn more about the program also appreciate this. Your point that the program is comprehensive is a common point that many people make. I find that most people, once they get into "Pillars" and learn how to use it, really have a good time with it. There truly is a lot to explore. The amount of information you can learn and train is only limited by your time, commitment and the size of your ambition. It truly is the program for people that want to study and train. It is great to have you as a student.

On To The Question:

19 hours ago, Tyrone Akiel said:

"Engaging the respiratory system sufficiently to optimize your phonations as a singer is not intuitive for the body. Even after 30 years of singing, training and teaching around the world, i still, to this day, have to be very conscientious of engaging my respiratory support when i train and sing. If i do not, just like everyone else, i start sounding like a duck (and get tired from all the squeezing)."

I have to preface this statement by saying, this is my personal experience. I am not suggesting that all accomplished singers feel this way. Likely, not everyone does. But for me, I need to keep my "eye" on the respiration from time to time. It is just a statement that reflects my personal experience as a singer, not everyone's. But the point for everyone is to insure that you are aware of it.

19 hours ago, Tyrone Akiel said:

So basically what i took from this was, concious support is mandatory, both in training and singing. Basically you should ALWAYS engage some sort of support. Both in training and singing?.

Yes, as a general rule, good advise for everyone. Seems to work for me... so I'm passing on the advise.

19 hours ago, Tyrone Akiel said:

It seems self explanatory, but on a scale of 1/5 - i'd like to know where this stands specifically in your program. Just for perspective.

A bit of a strange question... ??  Good, balanced respiration should be... good and balanced at all areas of your voice and range. The vocalize, or intervals you are singing or training should not matter in regards to the level of attention and importance on respiration.

19 hours ago, Tyrone Akiel said:

Which btw reminds me of a feature i really liked in the program, in which Rob basically does what i just said. He outlines the most "key" lessons to work on of every section/module. And of course each one also has long detailed descriptions/ illustrations / examples / and my favorite - benefits and troubleshooting. He clearly put A LOT of effort into this. Very thoughtful effort, might i add. Since a lot of programs out there don't go into such detail.

Thanks again Tyrone. Yes, precisely because 4Pillars is so comprehensive, I have instructed people that own it to train with the "Blue" modules and lessons first. It is one small way to help people get oriented on where to start and to prioritize. I am VERY pleased to hear that this idea was helpful for you. Thanks for the feedback!

19 hours ago, Tyrone Akiel said:

Also thanks Rob for encouraging me to get registered, there is clearly a lot of value in this forum i was missing on.

Uh ya!? It is the best vocal forum in the world brother!  Going on 8 years strong and with rock stars like Draven, Richards, Formica, and everyone else here. You are covered!

Tyrone... I have to say. Be sure to find the video and downloadable PDF in the "My Training" page at www.TheVocalistStudio.com , where you will find the 6 respiration workouts. They are also listed in the back of the hard copy book, inside the red training pages. There is a video of me doing the workouts as well. Also, regarding respiration. The Wind & Release Onset is the BEST onset to increase your respiration balance. It helps improve bernoulli physics in the glottis and overall, will do wonders for your respiration. So..

1. The above mentioned breathing exercises.

2. Working Wind & Release Onsets into your sirens ( Integrated Training Routines ).

 

The Karate Kid Trains Vocal Onsets:

I love this scene from the movie "Karate Kid". It reminds me of the teacher / student relationship. Many students don't understand why it is important to train the rudimentary, the basics and as TVS students, the ONSETS. But after the beginning stages are over, TVS students begin to understand how power training the onsets can be. The TVS onsets build instantaneous motor skills and muscle memory, similar to the defensive moves that the Karate Kid experiences after his Sensei, shows him WHY he has been training repetitious movements. I hope this scene will inspire viewers as much as it has inspired me and other TVS students.

Let me know if I can help you ... and thanks for posting here so we could share with others.

 

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18 hours ago, Draven Grey said:

It's not really tightening, it's leaning in and out. It has a similar feel and function to the push downward, but the mentality of it changes the structure enough that it tends to stablilize more and not put undue pressure on the pelvic floor. When I want to get really loud, I still push down, but even then I think about it differently than I used to and mentally push more into the abs than I do downward. Either way, you end up moving the diaphram much more slowly and controlled than ignoring the abdominal pressure altogether. I don't think it's contrary to the way TFPOS teaches it, I think it's complimentary. In many ways, it's a matter of semantics. But I think it's a crucial distinction of semantics for a better visualization and thus better support when a student is simply just pushing as hard as they can downward. See the video below. I don't like Trimble's vocal style, and there are many things he's doing to the contrary of contemporary singing. But this way of achieving breath support is someting to consider when learning Robert's method. Again, not cnotrary to, but to help adjust your sensations, visualization, and technique to achieve the end result faster.

I teach a few things differently than Robert, but again, not to the contrary. For instance, I have my students use a stirring straw for warmups, cool downs, and even when trying to get the sensation of tuning the formant, proper pressure balance, and relaxation of compression. IT's just another way to achieve the same sensation that has helped my students learn the TVS methodology faster.

 

Wow! ok, i just checked out his video, he seems to have other interesting stuff too, i wasn't aware off his channel. Thanks for sharing Draven. That gives me a lot to think about and experiment with. Funny enough i probably heard of the "leaning" concept somewhere along my "attempts" at studying singing etc. But i guess it just didn't sink in. So i'll be trying this out. Thanks again for all the thoughtful replies man!.

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His videos are okay. Lots to ponder. But a lot of what he teaches doesn't apply to contemporary voice or get the results that Robert does. "Appoggio" directly translates to lean, prop, bolster, support, and the like. Simply knowing the full meaning of the word in Italian helps better imagine how to use it. The idea can help you quickly get better support while training through Robert's breathing and training exercises and learning how to do it betetr and more naturally.

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7 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about 4Pillars Tyrone, I appreciate it of course, but also people that want to learn more about the program also appreciate this. Your point that the program is comprehensive is a common point that many people make. I find that most people, once they get into "Pillars" and learn how to use it, really have a good time with it. There truly is a lot to explore. The amount of information you can learn and train is only limited by your time, commitment and the size of your ambition. It truly is the program for people that want to study and train. It is great to have you as a student.

On To The Question:

I have to preface this statement by saying, this is my personal experience. I am not suggesting that all accomplished singers feel this way. Likely, not everyone does. But for me, I need to keep my "eye" on the respiration from time to time. It is just a statement that reflects my personal experience as a singer, not everyone's. But the point for everyone is to insure that you are aware of it.

Yes, as a general rule, good advise for everyone. Seems to work for me... so I'm passing on the advise.

A bit of a strange question... ??  Good, balanced respiration should be... good and balanced at all areas of your voice and range. The vocalize, or intervals you are singing or training should not matter in regards to the level of attention and importance on respiration.

Thanks again Tyrone. Yes, precisely because 4Pillars is so comprehensive, I have instructed people that own it to train with the "Blue" modules and lessons first. It is one small way to help people get oriented on where to start and to prioritize. I am VERY pleased to hear that this idea was helpful for you. Thanks for the feedback!

Uh ya!? It is the best vocal forum in the world brother!  Going on 8 years strong and with rock stars like Draven, Richards, Formica, and everyone else here. You are covered!

Tyrone... I have to say. Be sure to find the video and downloadable PDF in the "My Training" page at www.TheVocalistStudio.com , where you will find the 6 respiration workouts. They are also listed in the back of the hard copy book, inside the red training pages. There is a video of me doing the workouts as well. Also, regarding respiration. The Wind & Release Onset is the BEST onset to increase your respiration balance. It helps improve bernoulli physics in the glottis and overall, will do wonders for your respiration. So..

1. The above mentioned breathing exercises.

2. Working Wind & Release Onsets into your sirens ( Integrated Training Routines ).

 

The Karate Kid Trains Vocal Onsets:

I love this scene from the movie "Karate Kid". It reminds me of the teacher / student relationship. Many students don't understand why it is important to train the rudimentary, the basics and as TVS students, the ONSETS. But after the beginning stages are over, TVS students begin to understand how power training the onsets can be. The TVS onsets build instantaneous motor skills and muscle memory, similar to the defensive moves that the Karate Kid experiences after his Sensei, shows him WHY he has been training repetitious movements. I hope this scene will inspire viewers as much as it has inspired me and other TVS students.

Let me know if I can help you ... and thanks for posting here so we could share with others.

 

What a detailed reply!, love it. Thank you Robert for answering in such a thoughtful manner. I will make sure to remember your advice here and apply it. Funny thing is before i started T4P i was doing a lot of breathing exercises, stuff like 360 breath / hiss / root the breath exercises / so i may be decent or good in that aspect. But the problem i have is remembering to conciously use it both in training and in singing. As in support. Some programs i studied with just basically said "it's natural, you don't have to focus on it". Some others basically focused all their time on it and made it out like it was like 90% of singing. So that conflicted me and i just ended up focusing on other things. Looks like i need to start forgetting what i learned from those other programs and just start from complete scratch through T4P method. I was trying to fuse some stuff from other programs with T4P, and i guess that's not the best idea. Or if anything i should evaluate what causes possible conflict with T4P and remove it accordingly.

And btw, why i bring it up is because i do feel that my voice fatigues frequently, but maybe that's not related to breathing issues, although i gotta admit.

I don't shut up!!  i'm always singing and training for long periods of time. So i gotta work on that maybe. Is tough to not sing, sometimes it just happens.

Or if anything i might do what robert suggests in this case, instead of singing all that time, replace it with being "Mr Buzz a lot" or "Mr Lift and Pull back a lot".

Anyways thanks for the answer Robert. And yes! i love that movie. Very inspirational. And relatable too as a student, he was frustated and thought he was being played because it "didn't look" important. But all along he was building a foundation without even knowing it. Priceless. 

 

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43 minutes ago, Tyrone Akiel said:

And yes! i love that movie. Very inspirational. And relatable too as a student, he was frustated and thought he was being played because it "didn't look" important. But all along he was building a foundation without even knowing it. Priceless.

:41:

Training the TVS onsets with discipline in the beginning will test your patience and commitment. At times you will feel like the Karate Kid, "where is this going", "why is this so important", "I'm bored, when do we get to the good stuff"... then you will put on a song you have struggled with and suddenly, your voice will be responding naturally. You'll be ... singing the hard songs! Just like when the Sensei attacked the student and the students motor skills were there to defend the blows. Why? Because he painted that damn fence over and over again and built the movements... I guess you guys get that point. But it is so true with anything , especially the TVS onsets. 

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4 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

:41:

Training the TVS onsets with discipline in the beginning will test your patience and commitment. At times you will feel like the Karate Kid, "where is this going", "why is this so important", "I'm bored, when do we get to the good stuff"... then you will put on a song you have struggled with and suddenly, your voice will be responding naturally. You'll be ... singing the hard songs! Just like when the Sensei attacked the student and the students motor skills were there to defend the blows. Why? Because he painted that damn fence over and over again and built the movements... I guess you guys get that point. But it is so true with anything , especially the TVS onsets. 

Damm, how you phrased that was especially inspirational, more so coming from you the sensei. I noticed you just posted that on youtube i think. But I was about to suggest that the video and that exact post from you i feel should have a place somewhere in the T4P. If it isn't there already (if it is i must be blind).

But yea, maybe in the Critical Success Factors or Inspirational Quotes. I think it would serve a great purpose for people starting their training too see that, as well as students who are struggling or "losing faith" in the process, to come to that section and read that from time to time. Cause it can be quite a journey i'd say, such things help to stay committed. 

Heck just provide a link to the forum where it's at, i just think it holds value.

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Tyrone 

This video IS already in 4pillars. It's one of about 20 cool and fun bonus videos in the program. Some lessons have two videos, to add more education , interest, cool factor or humor.

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4 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

Tyrone 

This video IS already in 4pillars. It's one of about 20 cool and fun bonus videos in the program. Some lessons have two videos, to add more education , interest, cool factor or humor.

Ah, now i feel stupid. LOL, i must have missed it. That's awesome though, i'm glad!.

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Other bonus videos found in 4pillars.

- singing in the rain

- the alien spacecraft landing from "close encounters of the third kind"

- SNL "more cowbell"

- The earliest stars in the universe

&

- Beaker from the muppets sings U2s, "I still haven't found what I'm looking for".

... the bonus vids are part of the incentive to get through the course ! 

:moomin:

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So since this is basically a "journal" per say - i saw some other posts and they had their progress which was pretty cool. I don't think i'll be posting audios anytime soon but i can update atleast on some things that happened right after i had this discussion in this thread.

Now, it wasn't directly related to anything anyone said here, it has more to do with what i said here " Looks like i need to start forgetting what i learned from those other programs and just start from complete scratch through T4P method. I was trying to fuse some stuff from other programs with T4P, and i guess that's not the best idea. Or if anything i should evaluate what causes possible conflict with T4P and remove it accordingly."

I changed my vocal routine, adjusted my "priorities", basically i feel my routine had some exercises and such that were giving me great results (aside from TVS) so i was giving more priority to such. Which now it seems it was indeed a mistake. Now to be fair, i was still improving in some way almost every single day. But with this "adjusted" priorities - i mean - basically giving much more focus to T4P. It's way better. I was giving it in my opinion a good amount of focus and repetition already, but obviously not enough.

I think i mentioned already above that i'm reckless when it comes to practicing, i pretty much practice all day honestly. And before although i was improving, i was getting fatigued fairly often. I still haven't had long to properly test this new routine, but i can certainly say that just yesterday (being the first day of trying it). As opposed to my previous routine which i always felt like something was missing, it just felt like my voice was not responding completely so i was giving it rest days, and i started re-valuating my priorities (which included breathing which is what drove me to make the post, and i am also giving that more priority now).

It feels like my voice started warming up much faster, getting clarity, stability, agility, texture, stamina, consistency (which is something i struggle with a bit)).

It was a great feeling. So far today it looks to be going great again, it's a great feeling to feel like you can actually hear as your voice warms up and gets stronger pretty fast. Before giving T4P more priority/practice time i felt like my voice was just inconsistent.

Obviously it's just the 2nd day of re-adjusting, but it feels permanent.

Funny thing is i did it right the first couple of weeks (giving it enough time) but then i felt like i didn't want to feel like "i wasted my money on other programs" so i started trying to balance the other techniques with T4P. And odd things started happening, still improving, but way slower. And of course as i mentioned voice getting fatigued and being inconsistent.

I guess this foolish experience of mine just serves as an example of, if you're not getting results from T4P, you must certainly be doing something wrong. In this case for me, i was getting results, but not to the complete extent capable because of lack of practice time given to such. Which the thing is, i was still giving about rougly an hour to it. But giving it more certainly amplified results. And besides, to be fair i understand the T4P concepts better now than at the start, as well as the routine is more natural as opposed to having to constantly watch videos again to "grasp it" better or remind myself for safety or reassurance that i'm doing it right.

I'm currently doing Breathing exercises, FBR, Integrated Routines (Mostly Onsets on Melodic 5ths aka what Robert does in his demonstrations). And then i do my other stuff, which btw, T4P seems to enhance the effects of my other preferred exercises aside from T4P. Which is really cool.


I might update further, but hopefully just that gives some insight to anyone that goes through a similar situation. Yes i'm quite the ranter i know.

Wish this foolish soul luck.

(i will certainly review the program eventually, just want to experience it completely before i do so i can have much more to say aka do it justice)

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