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Can you clear up a disagreement between my vocal teacher and me?

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Erik Degeorge

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I just had a vocal lesson before, and this kinda drove me nuts, because I'm sure I'm right, but so was she ("I'll bet you money on it"), so I just needed to confirmation that I am right:

Tenors read the treble clef, but sound an octave lower, yes?

The highest range for a classical bass or baritone would be around F# or G, and you would write that 2 1/2 or 3 lines above bass clef, which is the same as the second line of treble clef.

If we're singing, say, a Schubert baritone piece, the G written above the Treble clef will sound an octave lower.

Pavarotti hitting his high C would be written two lines above the treble clef, but sound an octave lower; as the third space in the treble celf

...and high rock singer like Eric Adams of Manowar here at 5:13 :

 

...is hitting a high F# a tritone above Pavarotti, which would be WRITTEN 3 lines and a space above the treble clef for a tenor, but SOUND on the top line of the treble clef.

 

She is trying to tell me that this is wrong. That tenors do NOT read an octave off, that the high F# in the Manowar is the same as a top line F# in a Schubert piece ("You only think it's higher because his voice is so thin"), and Pavarotti hitting his high C is going a tritone above both. And...unless I'm missing something huge, that can't possibly be right. Yes? Or no?

I mean, I tried to show her by singing the pitch, and showing where it sounded the same on the piano, and she kept insisting, "No, you're singing that (plays an octave higher)" It got so we both had to just drop it. But...this seems obvious to me. So, what's the verdict?

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well i know how to read music sheet but i wouldnt know the specifics about writing specific transposing instruments or voices on music sheet :P (i just use it to compose and to play piano and drums!)

but it's easy to clarify the notes you are talking about, you just have to do the lowest C note you can on an airy voice, if you arent a baritone or a bass, this note is a C3. then next C is middle C (C4), then pavarotti's/tenor's high C (C5), and middle way to C6 you have manowar's F#5 :) so there's no confusion here!

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E2 is my lowest note. Eb2 kinda. This is the thing, I have a music degree, I know my stuff, I'm just not really a singer. She knows her stuff too, so it's so weird we were both so sure we were right. I almost feel like she much have misunderstood, but I went over it like 5 different ways, and I hate to bring it up again because it was such a divisive thing.

But yes, the Manowar F# is an F#5, right. Ugh, it's so weird.

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No, she thinks it's an F#4, but I said 'It's F#5' to try and clarify, and she said, "Now you're intellectualizing it."  She also thinks that that is the same F# I might top out on in Baritone classical music, like a Schubert piece like this one at 0:34 (actuall'y it's F4, not F#4, but you get my point):

...but it's not.

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12 hours ago, Erik Degeorge said:

I mean, I tried to show her by singing the pitch, and showing where it sounded the same on the piano, and she kept insisting, "No, you're singing that (plays an octave higher)" It got so we both had to just drop it. But...this seems obvious to me. So, what's the verdict?

So you sung an F4#, and she said that it's an F5#?

Very confusing. If you sing an F5#, what does she say it is?

And when you listen to the clip, you disagree in the other direction??? What you call F5#, she calls "thin" F4#???

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5 hours ago, kickingtone said:

So you sung an F4#, and she said that it's an F5#?

Very confusing. If you sing an F5#, what does she say it is?

And when you listen to the clip, you disagree in the other direction??? What you call F5#, she calls "thin" F4#???

The way I understand it is that he showed her Eric Adams singing an F5# and she said it is an F#4 and it just sounds higher because he is thinning his voice so much.

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1 hour ago, benny82 said:

The way I understand it is that he showed her Eric Adams singing an F5# and she said it is an F#4 and it just sounds higher because he is thinning his voice so much.

Is that even possible? With Bob Seger I have wondered when in a song like Old time Rock- n-Roll whether he is singing an A4 that sounds like A3 or singing an A3 that sounds like A4. When I sing it A3 sounds too low and A4 sounds too high. I would imagine that he is singing an A4 that sounds thick through the use of more compression and distortion.

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12 hours ago, Erik Degeorge said:

It was like arguing with a Trump supporter.

Huh?.. and what would that be like? Possibly like arguing with a "lib" that supports human rights and freedom, but at the same time insisting that conservatives don't have a right to argue for their rights to the same freedoms? The great era of liberal hypocrisy is over. Please, save it. No offence George, just saying...

Welcome to our forum btw... good question. I'm embarrassed that I don't really know for certain, but my educated guess is that the notes are the same, regardless of voice type. Otherwise you would have all kinds of confusion going on.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Robert Lunte said:

Huh?.. and what would that be like?

 

 

I mean you can lead a perfectly logical, irrefutable line from point a to b and they won't listen, and it's like living in the twilight zone where everyone just forgot what facts are, and seems blind to the most obvious things. This isn't the place for this argument obviously, but that's what I meant if you want to know.

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53 minutes ago, Erik Degeorge said:

I mean you can lead a perfectly logical, irrefutable line from point a to b and they won't listen, and it's like living in the twilight zone where everyone just forgot what facts are, and seems blind to the most obvious things. This isn't the place for this argument obviously, but that's what I meant if you want to know.

We are each in a  twilight zone. Each opinion comes from our own perspective and different "Facts" and experiences. Just as one could say that good breath Support leads to good cord closure and another saying good cord closure leads to good breath support. Or Classical singing is better than Contemporary and vice versa. Logic only comes from your own perspective and the "Facts" as provided to you. If you in fact (pun intended) can believe those "Facts" as presented

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