Jump to content

Discover My Voice or Sound LIke Someone Else?

Rate this topic


xxDutchiexx

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
13 minutes ago, MDEW said:

but you still need to produce resonant tones and proper coordinations

Exactly my point. MDEW typically nails it.

13 minutes ago, MDEW said:

Speaking vowels are shaped by environment. Singing vowels are shaped for a reason.

As I said there are a lot of factors that make a difference, but one thing to remember for all you guys is this... FREQUENCY. Frequency is the element that is the most different between speech and most singing. As a general rule, the higher you are in frequency, the more sensitive your formants and resonance have to be tuned. In simple terms, the more tricky and challenging it becomes. One reason why singing high is generally more difficult. Its not because you have gained any altitude, it is because of the physics of sound and in particular, what happens to sound as you go "up" in frequency.

I am over simplifying here but, speech is a more simplified phonation compared to singing. Mostly because speech resides in comparatively lower frequencies where formant tunings, articulations and the like are all a lot more intuitive and less complex, in comparison to singing, for the purpose of this conversation about singing.

The simple stupid summary statement could be,... Singing is more difficult than speaking because the "venue" that singing mostly resides in, consists of far more complex frequency demands, movements, range, etc... Same reason why everyone on this topic can sing a country song just fine.. but we would all be challenged to one degree or another singing a prog. metal song into the fourth octave above the bridge.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well as far as I know for me If I sing a c3 I(ee) I sing c4 (ee) and c5 (ee). When you balance your registers you can sing the vowels without distorting them. 

on a side note when training the passagio you may go from uh to u (oo) to learn the coordination and strengthen it. So there is the modification, but when you sing you strengthen it in practice so you just sing the vowels as they were meant to be unless you need to open it slightly to keep the flow and legato but not far away ee is ee oo is oo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

Well as far as I know for me If I sing a c3 I(ee) I sing c4 (ee) and c5 (ee). When you balance your registers you can sing the vowels without distorting them. 

on a side note when training the passagio you may go from uh to u (oo) to learn the coordination and strengthen it. So there is the modification, but when you sing you strengthen it in practice so you just sing the vowels as they were meant to be unless you need to open it slightly to keep the flow and legato but not far away ee is ee oo is oo.

I think the point is that Speaking vowels are not balanced. At least not for a hillbilly like I am. The resonance is in the wrong place, along with tongue position, mouth position and larynx position. Speaking vowels are inherently distorted to begin with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

Actually better for a southerner than a northern Bostonian or New Yorker . All African American singers blow white singers away because of this impediment. you might want to rethink that

    The right twang is essential to cut through the music, Twang itself is separate from vowels. That mainly has to do with cord closure and narrowing above the vocal folds. Vowels are formed between the body of the tongue and the wall of the throat and roof of the mouth. Coordinations.

     I know I have too much book knowledge and not enough practical experience. I do not doubt that you could guide anyone without the use of these ideas. I also know that you have much more book knowledge than I do. I am not trying to teach you anything. All of this actually gets in the way. But to have someone like you who knows that the vowels need to be balanced and used properly for register transitions to say that there is no difference between speaking vowels and singing vowels is just confusing to say the least.

   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not me just saying it it's the singers/teachers  I know teaching it. Richard miller, Dan marek, Pavarotti, alexander Kariotis, Berton Coffin, Volpi, gigli, Marella freni, raimondi etc surely they can't be wrong. I could be but not them.  I didn't mean to call you "surely"lolololol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Danielformica said:

It's not me just saying it it's the singers/teachers  I know teaching it. Richard miller, Dan marek, Pavarotti, alexander Kariotis, Berton Coffin, Volpi, gigli, Marella freni, raimondi etc surely they can't be wrong. I could be but not them.  I didn't mean to call you "surely"lolololol

Another one of those contradictions between singing and teaching I guess. A spoken vowel and a vowel adjusted for resonance, pitch, sustain, tone  and power are different. To brighten the tone, darken the tone, Round the vowel or Cover the vowel is to change the vowel. 

You will also notice that in their books they will have IPA charts and diagrams about how to position your mouth and tongue to produce those vowels. Speech or otherwise. It may be that singing is sustained speech but sustained speech using the proper production of vowel sounds.

Listen to the voice of Pavarotti when he speaks. Also notice that the Mouth on this singer is NOT configured as it would be if he was speaking the song.

If Pavarotti produced his vowels the same when he sings as he does when speaking he would sound horrible. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, MDEW said:

nother one of those contradictions between singing and teaching I guess.

No contradictions. I sing I teach the ones I speak of sung and taught. Mdew 5 things make up a vowel ( throat tongue palate lips jaw) when you mess with these  things and what they do naturally on each vowel you distort the vowel and that's when you hear singers sing "fayeet" for feet or lahve for love etc. your Pavarotti reference didn't make any sense to me. He was very pure about his vowels when he sang.? I think you are confusing the aesthetic of opera singing for distorting the vowel. The thing Is I learned this stuff from a student of Pavarottis teacher Arriga Pola. I'm not making a hypothesis or educated guess I'm merely stating what I was taught and the technique of Bel Canto from Modena and Bologna as it was taught to them.  Sounds nuts but it's true :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Danielformica said:

No contradictions. I sing I teach the ones I speak of sung and taught. Mdew 5 things make up a vowel ( throat tongue palate lips jaw) when you mess with these  things and what they do naturally on each vowel you distort the vowel and that's when you hear singers sing "fayeet" for feet or lahve for love etc. your Pavarotti reference didn't make any sense to me. He was very pure about his vowels when he sang.? I think you are confusing the aesthetic of opera singing for distorting the vowel. The thing Is I learned this stuff from a student of Pavarottis teacher Arriga Pola. I'm not making a hypothesis or educated guess I'm merely stating what I was taught and the technique of Bel Canto from Modena and Bologna as it was taught to them.  Sounds nuts but it's true :)

I am not saying that Pavarotti singing vowels were not pure..... I am saying his Speaking vowels were not and the tembre was not pleasant for singing. That is the difference. Speech is full of tensions distorting vowels and creating accents and inflections that are haphazard. Singing vowels are controlled. Even if the control is getting rid of external and internal tensions.

Even though each of these teachers do say that singing is an extension of speech our vowels, tone and resonance need work.

I know this is all just semantics but it is the semantics that leads to this conversation. Speaking vowels are distorted by environment, physical placements and personal preferences in some cases. A Boston Ah and a West Virginian Ah need adjustments to be a "Pure" Ah. Relaxation of tongue Jaw and correct embrasure are going to change the position of these elements and the sound of each of these "Ah"s. 

 

Edit: If I ever do get a chance to get a lesson from you..... I will follow whatever direction you give me. I will not argue over semantics or question your advice. 

But afterward if you want to have a conversation ...... I do have questions, and opinions which I am willing to change. Do not think that I question your knowledge. I respect it and you thoroughly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
15 hours ago, Danielformica said:

Well as far as I know for me If I sing a c3 I(ee) I sing c4 (ee) and c5 (ee). When you balance your registers you can sing the vowels without distorting them. 

If they sound like "ee" or ( although you know that these 3 "ee"s do not sound identical, hint... ), but for the sake of being simple, if they all sound like "ee", that doesn't mean its the same formant or resonance. They sound like "ee" because you are a strong craftsman. You have developed the strength and motor skills to do it. But just because you can make them sound like an "ee" doesn't LITERALLY make them the same phonetics as speech. It makes YOU a talented craftsman of the phonetics of speech vs singing.

A lot of those guys are old school and none of them are phonetics experts. They are not meaning to say that the phonetics of speech and singing vowels ( on high notes ) are literally the same. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
11 hours ago, Danielformica said:

that's when you hear singers sing "fayeet" for feet or lahve for love etc.

Which is perfectly fine and sometimes preferred. That is why everyone does it from time to time, including Pavarotti and James LeBrie and the list goes on and on. 

If EVERY SINGLE singing vowel sounded EXACTLY like a speech vowel ALL the time, it would sound stupid.

This is not Italian language phonetics. This is singing Italian, not speaking Italian.

 

This is also not language phonetics, from the bridge at 3:00+... Very modified vowels and I happen to think it sounds great. Apparently so do millions of fans around the world. 

 

I preface my argument by clearly stating, what Dan is advocating in terms of training the narrowed vowels so you can sing language sounding vowels above the bridge is very important and a worthy endeavor for sure! I'm not arguing for not doing any of that, I am arguing for it. As a matter of fact, it is something I am becoming more and more convinced of as of recent, ... but to suggest that these narrowed singing positions are literally the same phonetics as the same vowels in speech is scientifically just impossible. And because some old school Maestros said it was so, doesn't make it gospel. I personally don't believe that was the argument they were making... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
13 hours ago, Danielformica said:

surely they can't be wrong.

Ok, in fact, ... surely they could be wrong, and/or misunderstood.

... And Einstein was wrong about the duality of quanta matter, and ancients were very wrong about the sun orbiting the Earth, and I could go on indefinitely with my point. NOBODY, gets a pass on being wrong or confused and in need of some update from time to time. That is part of the essence of being human. In fact, I don't recall where I read it, quite possibly on this forum,... but someone pointed out that some of Richard Miller's ideas have in more recent times, been proven to be wrong.

There have been numerous times when I was wrong or confused about how best to train the voice . I can categorically say, every single time I managed to to humble myself and be willing to question my beliefs, I emerged on the other side with more visibility on how to better train a voice and how to become a better singer for myself. 

 

 

Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

Benjamin Franklin
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can do amazing things with your voice.  You start with believing you can.

It's all about believing and "seeing" yourself going somewhere, or other "places" with your voice.

I worked years to get just close to emulating other singers voices colors. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...