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jonpall

Don't stop believing - cover

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I don't think that those high, long B4 notes are the most interesting ones. That high up, the modes start to blur a bit and you start to be able to do MLN very powerfully. analog, I think THAT'S what you may be referring to when you say "very light overdrive" :) I.e. MLN on a high note :)

I think the most interesting notes are right in the first scentence, "Just a small town girl". I'd like to get a tone similar to the karaoke singer and Arnel Pineda on that song. analog, note that you can sing a long note in some vocal mode and then switch to a different mode right at the end :)

I WILL actually agree with Ronws totally on his point that there is only so much more "beef" you can add to your voice with technique. I will never be able to totally copy Tom Jones' sound, f.ex., probably because his resonance cavities are bigger than mine or something.

I've been comparing my clip to the karaoke guy's one and I'm going to try to do the following next time I record (I had so little time yesterday):

Sing the song mostly in overdrive. And on the highest notes, either restrain the volume slightly (curbing) or simply twang (MLN). But keeping mostly in overdrive, which means inhaling on a yawn and NOT having a hold on all the time. Also, the yawn should minimize the nasality because of the raised soft palate. I also noted that I tend to be nasal mostly on certain words, like "strangers". If I DON'T use a dipthong vowel there (with an I at the end), or be careful to keep a raised soft palate at the end of that dipthong, I think I won't even be nasal on those words. Also on the word "going".

But I'm going to, just for the sake of helping my tone at the moment, try to get as close to that karaoke guy's sound as possible, if I can. Notice how FREE his first line is, f.ex. I don't think that has a hold. Just a very free overdrive with a relaxed throat and no breathyness. The very first note is an Ab4 on the word "just". If it's overdrive, then surely it has to be modified slightly towards Oh as in "so". But yet another option could be the "edge" CVT vocal mode and then probably with the vowel Oe as in "herb" and lots of twang, but still lots of volume and kind of shouty :)

But maybe someone else than may want to take a shot at analyzing the karaoke guy's (Eric Snider is his name) first two lines in the song? (Just a small town girl, living in a lonely world.)

At the moment I might even like Eric Snider's version better than Arnel Pineda's, especially in terms of Texas beef (hey, I'm tired of always using the same term, like meatiness. Maybe we're all talking about what CVT calls metal, I dunno.):

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Anyway, on the topic of shouty or not, do you guys think this is shouty? It didn't feel shouty to me. Actually, it felt light, but certainly not as raspy as the original.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8750209/Don%27t%20Stop%20-%20sample.mp3

Not sure if I'd call it shouty, but you kind of slipped back and forth between a meaty tone and a non-meaty one (but I did so on my take, too). Mostly a meaty one so contrats on that, Ron. It would be interesting to hear you do it without sliding downwards at the end of a lot of the notes. Even though it does give it a punky attitude, I think it would surprise you how well it sounded, for any genre, to skip the slides for now.

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However Personally I dont like my MLN, the sound is hide and light, here i prepare this same in curbing. Hold 95%, twang 80%, power 90%.

http://www.box.net/shared/ye1hn4z9u6

Sound is more "forward" but a little bit more squeezed.

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analog - you make a good point. and thanks for this link - that is a really good youtube recording. Steve's B4 is very full - to me very comparable to jonpall's fullness. I get confused by this though. I can sing this B4 just as full (as can most people on this forum). I'm coming from the KTVA method and Ken sings very full in what he would call head. And he would start Head at maybe A4 and up. What Ken teaches is glottal compression - which maximizes the closed to open phase ratio in head which results in a head voice that sounds very full - like chest. If you listen to Ken you have a very difficult time distinguishing chest from head. I equate ken's chest as either overdrive or curbing (with TA activity), and Ken's head as neutral (little or not TA activity). Again, this is only my working theory and it is very interesting to hear yours and others opinions on this. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe what Ken calls glottal compression in head is what CVT would call curbing. Maybe CVT's curbing can have both active and non-active TA. If that's true then I am wrong on my CVT explanation of Steve Prerry's technique.

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IMO, glottal compression is that "hold" from curbing. At least that's what I think. It surprises me that you think I have a comparable fullness to Steve Perry (even though I can't view analog's clip). But maybe I'm focusing too much on the notes that weren't full and maybe there were some full notes in between. Like I said, I slipped in and out of glottal compression and in and out of nasality, I think.

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I don't think that those high, long B4 notes are the most interesting ones.

I'm focusing on those because those are what the crowd effing loves(I've been in a band performing this song for years...with the female singing lead, not me :) )

It really sucks that you can't hear this concert series...it kills. I can't imagine singing with the kind of power and clarity that Steve does here. The vowels are most definitely Overdrive(OH/UH/EH) and have the overtones associated. It's straight out of the mouth and yelly(in a cool way IMO.)

Guitartrek:

Man I've analyzed the HELL out of Ken and he's all over the map. Tons of Overdrive and Curbing up top(probably slight hold on his OD notes though.) He's a master Curber IMO. I've heard him take his Curb up to E(5) above High C. He's also transitioned to neutral lower than that. He just has great technique :)

Above all, it's really all speculation on my part. I've only studied CVT w/ the Book and few lessons(couple years ago) and NOT the 3 year intensive course...obviously. I've been much more Estill leaning this last year...which means my ear is a bit blurred to the whole CVT mode thing. I respect the hell out of you guys and it's all in fun to try to figure this stuff out. The bottom line, to me, is if the two of you(Jonpall and Geno) can sound as great as y'all do...who f'n cares what mode it is :)

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I think that the crowd loves the high B4s being on PITCH and don't care that much if it's MLN or OD :) Then they are interested if you've got a very resonant sound on the rest of your notes, IMO. I've been having MSN help from Cartin and he's recommending mostly OD for beef and curbing on the occasional I and O vowels like in "sweet (perfume)" and "boulevard". Guys, just try singing the first word in the song - "Just", on Ab4, alternatively in centered curbing vs. centered overdrive. I just did and it surprised me that in order to get a thicker sound, overdrive sounds a bit better and it isn't splatty at all - probably because the word "just" doesn't have an I or an O vowel (like in "sing" and "you"). So to me, "JOhst" sounds better than "JUhst", at least if you want a thick tenor sound. I can't wait to train, record and post again :)

I may have been curbing too much for the past few months (also been doing lots of MLN), considering that I prefer a pretty thick sound. I'm really gonna explore that method of singing mostly in overdrive but use curbing on most of the I and O vowels (to avoid the splattyness - although sometimes it can be cool) ... instead of insisting to sing entire songs in curbing - that may be appropriate for many R&B songs, though.

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I also re-recorded the first half of this song in a hurry last night and let Cartin hear it. He said that now I was sing that high, long "niiiight" on B4 in overdrive, baby! Yeah ;) Although that was cool to hear (because I don't know anyone that's as good at detecting the modes), and it didn't really take that much extra effort because I used the right vowel and volume, I don't really think the modes on the B4s make that much of a difference (like I've said before). This is a cool discussion, no?

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hey guys, this has me really interested..what do you make of this guy's version..please comment all....it's important to me.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RickiKeith#p/a/u/0/B2ONwL3jRYI

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Not sure if I'd call it shouty, but you kind of slipped back and forth between a meaty tone and a non-meaty one (but I did so on my take, too). Mostly a meaty one so contrats on that, Ron. It would be interesting to hear you do it without sliding downwards at the end of a lot of the notes. Even though it does give it a punky attitude, I think it would surprise you how well it sounded, for any genre, to skip the slides for now.

Man, you nailed that spot on. I wasn't aware I was sliding. Perhaps the cessation of the note and the breath take sound like a slid. Anyway, I think I did have a punk attitude when I did that. Excellent perception of yours.

Funny thing is, I wasn't thinking "meaty" when I did it, which means that my natural tone on most of that was meaty. This is helping me, believe it or not.

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hey guys, this has me really interested..what do you make of this guy's version..please comment all....it's important to me.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RickiKeith#p/a/u/0/B2ONwL3jRYI

Bob - that guy did a great job on that tune. He is an excellent singer.

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I figured out what you mean by a slide. It took me a second listening. Slides at the end of a note. That's me stopping a note and exhaling. Now, on this song in particular, there are plenty of downward notes to end on from the way the melody is constructed. The way of ending a note and finishing a breath, that might harder to change than meaty or not. That is, what you are calling a slide is not so much a slide of the pitch as it is the cessation of phonation and it sounds like a decrease in pitch or a "slide." I can probably fix that if I stop breathing.;)

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This is not you taking a breath. This is sliding down in pitch as you end phrases, kind of "crashing" into the phrases which, again, gives it a punky feeling :) Hey, if anyone else disagrees here, just speak up, people. Speaking as a friend, Ronws, I can almost guarantee to you that those slides and the end of the notes will get on the nerves of lots of people, especially for a song that's not really a punk song, and if you'd work on getting rid of them, you'd see such a huge improvement you wouldn't believe it. Like I've said, you've already got a range many guys dream of, and with power on top as well. This would be a very cool addition to your singing arsenal. And I don't say it like I have some authority on anything. F.ex. I realize that I don't have as much power and control of my voice as I could have, but I'm working on it. This forum is a perfect place for singers to come together and help each other.

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I realize that I don't have as much power

No. Youve got enough.

control of my voice as I could have

Everyone except Lambert :) has to work on it.

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hey guys, this has me really interested..what do you make of this guy's version..please comment all....it's important to me.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RickiKeith#p/a/u/0/B2ONwL3jRYI

That's an awesome version. It's VERY close to Arnel Pineda's studio version of Separate ways (especially in terms of vocal modes), which is very close to Steve Perry's studio version (but only Steve Perry, of those 3, put on slight rasp on the first B4 notes in that song - the "hearts broken in TWO"). Many people would probably call this pulling chest, but because he's very centered in his modes he can do it in a healthy manner.

I'm gonna take a shot at CVT examining this. I'd guess that he's mostly in overdrive, but with a light sound colour and he also has a naturally high speaking voice. But still, because of the vocal modes he chooses for that song, he gets more power than guys with naturally thicker voices would have if they chose "less metallic" vocal modes. I f.ex. have a slightly thicker voice than Ricki but he gets more power than me in general if you compare this video to my rendition of Don't stop believing. I'm talking in general because I do have a bunch of notes in overdrive in my take, just too few, in my opinion.

Although this guy (Ricki) sings some other songs on his youtube site in curbing and neutral, here he's singing mostly in overdrive, IMO. But there are some high B4s that are in curbing and MLN, IMO.

F.ex. the first line - "Here we stand, worlds apart broken in two", I think that everthing is in overdrive except the last two words - "in two", which would be in curbing on the I and O vowels. The volume will slightly drop and, he adds a hold. Arnel did the same, but Steve had slightly higher volume on the last note so creaking happened (slight rasp, very awesome). The same is going on on the next line in the song. You can look at his face and see that he opens his mouth a bit which indicates the "bite" from overdrive and on the high B4s, he doesn't have his mouth opened as much but he has a facial expression like he's in pain - which indicates he thinking about the hold/cry/moan from curbing. The mouth opens more the higher he gets. That's the correct thing to do, btw., as long as you don't overdo it, which would constrict.

Then there's the line "feeling that it's gone". Here he might be thinking about saving some energy because the high B4 with the word "gone" sounds like it's in MLN to me. You can see on his face and body that he's not using a lot of effort and I don't hear any restrained sound. He'd sound more shouty, louder and thicker if that high "gone" B4 note were overdrive. So I think it's MLN. Same with "if we can't go ooooon". But Steve Perry did those B4s (both "gone" and "on") in overdrive with the Oh vowel. Still, from the relatively little that I've heard from Journey, Steve Perry was rarely as full-metallic and heavy as in that time around the recording of Separate ways and Oh Sherry. Usually he was more in neutral and curbing, like guitartrek talked about.

But then he (Ricki) sings "love divides", where the "divides" is on B4 and then he sings the ending of that word in overdrive on the Oh vowel, IMO, although he starts in curbing on the first syllable. So it's "dIvOhdes", with the I vowel from curbing and then the Oh vowel from overdrive. First vowel had a relaxed jaw, lower volume and a hold. Second vowel had a more open mouth, with a feeling in the jaw that you're trying to bite into something or that you have gum between your teeth, gluing them together and you're trying to break the glue. That's the "bite" in overdrive. It also had more volume, was more "shouty" and he released his "hold" from curbing.

This is my take on it.

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Great analysis jonpall. I listened again to this guy's video. Man he has great control and a great sense of style. Damn!! It would be cool to get this guy on the forum to comment.

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Great analysis jonpall. I listened again to this guy's video. Man he has great control and a great sense of style. Damn!! It would be cool to get this guy on the forum to comment.

guys, as a friend, please help me with this because it is the most utterly confusing aspect of singing i can think of

i'm really miffed by this ricki guy's singing of steve perry or singing in general.

while i agree he has a nice voice, and i say this with all due respect to ricki, i cannot understand how that's not considered an easy way out to that vocal, meaning take away the audio mix and embellished audio and if he were to sing that song in a room with no mic no amplification he'd be so soft and light......

again, don't get me wrong, but if that's the case we all can sing steve perry rather easily which cannot be the case.

now here is where i get my point across better..here he's singing the beginning of "oh sherrie." it's not sung that light as he's demonstrating in that video.

i really feel he's sending a false message to others.

what would he do with dio, or paul rodgers, or "you know who?"

again, all you folks please comment because you like me and want to help me.....lol!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/RickiKeith#p/u/27/fdfOGqO9Gk8

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I'd guess that he's mostly in overdrive, but with a light sound colour and he also has a naturally high speaking voice. But still, because of the vocal modes he chooses for that song, he gets more power than guys with naturally thicker voices would have if they chose "less metallic" vocal modes

Very interesting jonpall. Im very curious what abut this "thesis" would say CVT coach.

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now here is where i get my point across better..here he's singing the beginning of "oh sherrie." it's not sung that light as he's demonstrating in that video.

i really feel he's sending a false message to others.

what would he do with dio, or paul rodgers, or "you know who?"

again, all you folks please comment because you like me and want to help me.....lol!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/RickiKeith#p/u/27/fdfOGqO9Gk8

Bob - That's a great demonstration video - he shows the different modes - Neutral, Curbing and Overdrive and he is doing them all very well. Again with excellent control.

Here are a couple of my thoughts: Rick seems like he is naturally a high tenor. Paul Rogers is not a high tenor like that - more of a 2nd Tenor maybe?? (I was once classified as a 2nd tenor so I'll use that). Paul's voice - to me - is naturally heavier more like you and I and jonpall and others on the forum. Rick's voice is lighter and it won't sound as "beefy" if he sang a Paul Rogers song.

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This is not you taking a breath. This is sliding down in pitch as you end phrases, kind of "crashing" into the phrases which, again, gives it a punky feeling :) Hey, if anyone else disagrees here, just speak up, people. Speaking as a friend, Ronws, I can almost guarantee to you that those slides and the end of the notes will get on the nerves of lots of people, especially for a song that's not really a punk song, and if you'd work on getting rid of them, you'd see such a huge improvement you wouldn't believe it. Like I've said, you've already got a range many guys dream of, and with power on top as well. This would be a very cool addition to your singing arsenal. And I don't say it like I have some authority on anything. F.ex. I realize that I don't have as much power and control of my voice as I could have, but I'm working on it. This forum is a perfect place for singers to come together and help each other.

I don't know if I said breath take. I thought I said exhalation. Anyway, dang it, whenever I sang something today, I focused on how I ended the note. Because, finally, you gave me something specific to look at. I know what you are talking about and it's not what I think of as a slide but it might certainly be a note crash. But I don't want to take over your thread by asking others to say if they were annoyed by it or thought it was a slide. In my defense, like today, it was the end of a really long day and I was tired and probably should not have posted it. But I was totally into the discussion and I'm glad everyone has been so inspired to comment, based on your performance (you should give yourself a pat on the back.)

I simply wanted to ask if it was shouty and wasn't wanting to turn this into a critique of me. I apologize for any undue diversion from the subject at hand.

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Ron, no need for apologies at all. I actually like that this thread has become something more than just a normal review thread. I don't want this thread to be about me and my original audio clip. Not anymore, at least. I find the current discussion much more interesting (although my clip is involved in it). So anyone feel free to post whatever they want here, even if it's slightly unusual in the reviews section. Ron, when I heard you clip, it would obvious to me that you have range and power so that was something I really liked about your clip.

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Bob - That's a great demonstration video - he shows the different modes - Neutral, Curbing and Overdrive and he is doing them all very well. Again with excellent control.

Here are a couple of my thoughts: Rick seems like he is naturally a high tenor. Paul Rogers is not a high tenor like that - more of a 2nd Tenor maybe?? (I was once classified as a 2nd tenor so I'll use that). Paul's voice - to me - is naturally heavier more like you and I and jonpall and others on the forum. Rick's voice is lighter and it won't sound as "beefy" if he sang a Paul Rogers song.

Bob, I agree with guitartrek here. I even rewatched Ricki's clip. I suggest you re-read my post, because I mention that on some B4 notes, Ricki is using MLN but Perry was using overdrive. Not all, but some. And sometimes Ricki also goes for overdrive on those notes. But in most places, he and Perry are using the same modes.

To refresh your memory, overdrive only works with the Eh and Oh vowel (like in "hey" and "so") and is totally unrestrained - without any cry/hold. MLN (metal like neutral) is neutral with twang, i.e. it sounds a bit like a lullaby, but with lots of twang added. High up in pitch it can actually sound pretty beefy, just not as beefy as the other modes, especially overdrive.

Although it sure would be good to hear what he-whos-name-we-do-not-speak of thinks of this (and I'll ask him), IMO, Ricki is using the same modes that Tom Jones usually used :) It's just that he'll never sound as full, having a lighter voice to begin with. But for many people in the audience, if he uses the same vocal modes, he'll go a long way delivering the same emotion. F.ex. in Separate ways, people are used to hearing the line "worlds apart, hearts broken in two" with a shouty feeling, even though they're probably only subconcously aware of it. So if someone covers the song with another mode, they feel something is missing, whereas if they use the same modes, they get a similar feeling, but from another voice. It worked for me and guitartrek, but didn't seem to work for you. Nothing unnatural about that, though. People's tastes are simply different. Then again, who knows, maybe you're right and we're completely wrong :) I have no problem eating my hat if that's the case.

Bob, maybe you were mostly talking about the high B4s? If so, yeah, he pulled back slightly on the power on "gone" and "on" (MLN), but not on the first 2 B4s, f.ex., i.e. "two" and "you" (curbing). Then he went with overdrive on "divides", and he was actually mostly in overdrive.

Now, I could be totally wrong with my analysis. Guitartrek, analog and other people here, do you agree with my analysis or not? It would be cool to hear yours. Bob, it may also have confused you that on many other songs on his youtube site, he sings in fairly light modes. On Separate ways he beefs it up and he also has tons of reverb that can confuse us.

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th guitartrek here. I even rewatched Ricki's clip. I suggest you re-read my post, because I mention that on some B4 notes, Ricki is using MLN but Perry was using overdrive. Not all, but some. And sometimes Ricki also goes for overdrive on those notes. But in most places, he and Perry are using the same modes.

Excellent observation. I think I like it because it goes along with my position that voices are unique. You can have two people singing the same note, doing the same thing or so it would seem and the note would sound different. Or in, this case, doing different things to create a note that sounds similar. And why would they do different things? Well they are physically different. Steve Perry has a small head, for one thing. As I have said before, if you had the shape of Perry's skull, his musculature, neurology, his vocal folds (with the same degree of thick and thin whereever they are), the same size and control of larynx, his life experiences and emotional state regarding these experiences, and used the same techniques, then a person would sound just like him. I.E., to sound like Steve Perry, a person needs to be Steve Perry.

But I think jonpall sounds just fine. In comparison to the original, I thought the beginning was stronger than the original but it was a stylistic thing and in no way hampered my enjoyment of it. Did you sound like Steve Perry? Not as much as others and I could care less. I like the jonpall version. Even if you felt light and it turned out to be strong or meaty.

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Here's my newest take, attempting to have a slightly thicker sound than before:

http://www.box.net/shared/zokp355k7s

Listening to it again, it's not THAT much thicker than before, but first of all, I don't think it sounds best to have it TOO thick and secondly, there's a limit to how much thicker I can make it. But in general, I think I'm happier with this take. Note that I didn't record all the song this time. It would be cool to hear what you guys think. And like always, be honest. I can take it :)

Btw. I just got a confirmation from Cartin Maych that he agrees with my CVT analysis in my post number 40 :) . We'll he said - most of the time. It's probably slightly more in curbing than I thought. F.ex. perhaps that first word "Just", could be in curbing from that karaoke singer :). Which is actually what I was thinking over the weekend - that mostly curbing and some words in overdrive would probably sound best for this song - AND be "beefy". But he thought my analysis was great, so it sounds like I wasn't bullshitting you guys :)

I MIGHT even do yet another version of Don't stop believing soon, mostly for myself, and do that one mostly in curbing, because right now I'm thinking that what might have bugged me about my first version is that I was actually a lot in MLN, even in the verses. So, IMO, MLN is probably too light for this song and overdrive MIGHT be too heavy :) . If I do it again, mostly in curbing, then this time around I'll make sure that I'm more centered in curbing and have my vowels and consonants more precise, and make sure I don't fall into MLN, unless MAYBE on some B4s. Thanks for a very interesting discussion.

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Honest to God, jonpall, I liked this version better than the last. And yet, it sounded light and relaxed, though well connected. You sing more open than Perry. He was twanging more. And please, don't think that you have to. This was just right. Don't change a thing. Really.

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