Manowar - King of Kings

[DJDeth]

Have anybody ever posted a Manowar song here? I don't think so! I'm trying to come as close to Adams' voice as I can in this one, but there are some really tricky moments, like the E4 - G#4 - A4 in the chorus (it's hard to bridge with this kind of tone, but when you listen to Adams live, he does it every time so seemlesly, that I would swear that he stays in chest - but now I think he doesn't:)), or the high notes in the slow part. One more difficult thing about Manowar songs is that the guy has the most violent high screams in metal music, so I struggle pretty much to get anywhere near with mine:/

I'm in the right channel and in the center when I layer the vocals. C&C more than welcome!

http://www.box.net/shared/a7nzh91b70

Heavy!

[Chavie]

You have a very similar voice to eric......its crazy!!!

i wish i could get grit like this.

[akarawd]

Ok, this can't be. How on earth did you manage to sound like THE man ?

This is awesome, I'm speechless.

Now you have to explain to all of us how you managed to do that. Placement, breathing, modes, tongue placement, daily training everything.

Amazing man, just amazing !!

Thanos

[akarawd]

Also, if the exercises Steven Fraser suggested to you here http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/themodernvocalist/viewtopic.php?id=708&p=1 have been part of your daily vocal training,

can you please post examples 'cause I'd be very interested in practicing along.

I know it's a lot to ask , but you just nailed Eric Adam's style man.. you gotta help us out !

Thanks in advance,

Thanos

[Jens]

i agree with all, and please do master of the wind as your next track! ive always wanted to be able to nail thatone ;)

[jonpall]

Awesome metal singing, man! . *Headbangs...*

[DJDeth]

Hey guys, thanks for the positive feedback:D

Thanos, there are few things that helped me greatly in the last few days/weeks in getting these tones. I'll try to point them out here.

- Adams has a very dark sound colour and quite a lot of grit going on in the chest voice (at least in this song, he had a lighter timbre in the 80'), so I had to work on these two aspects. The rasp I used here is a mixture of some vocal fry/growl that sits at the level of vocal cords and the distortion that comes from a high placement of the voice. I aim it at the ceiling of the mouth, supposingly soft palate. Sometimes it feels like it's even higher, like the top of the head.

- as for the dark sound colour i suppose it's about a relatively low larynx on one hand and low tongue/high palate position on the other. But it wasn't a concious effort, just 'be Eric Adams' kind of mental approach

- singing above F#4 with this type of sound ('thorn assunder' words in the chorus) was a bit more demanding and required some special attention, because I was getting too thin or too shouty on this part. So I tried to isolate the tones and work just on them. And that's where 2 YT videos helped me:) One from Kevin Richards, where he shows a light mix excercise (actually I don't think this one is on YT, you'd have to register on his website to get access). The other one is a Singing Success vocal tip of the week:) Here's the link:

So the thing was to find a well balanced pure head tone on the particular note to make sure that there is no strain in the voice, not too much weight. When I was there, everything else came pretty easy. I had to let the tone grow, expand, become meaty, then change it to the right vowel, and finally ad some grit to it by activating the roof of my head/mouth.

With the high screams (which I'm still not happy with), above D5, it was the same matter with finding the balanced tone first, but to add the brightness and agresion of Adams' voice I experimented with a higher tongue position and wide mouth (look at him on pictures, he looks like a freakin frog when he's screaming:). I just checked and the larynx stays in a rather normal position.

In the slow part i think it's CVT's curbing mostly, so there is a lot going on with vowel modification on the highest notes, f.ex. tilting the "oh' towards 'ah' in "Kingdom of".

But my biggest advice would be: listen to Manowar as much as possible:) When I was doing this cover I could hear Eric's voice in one channel all the time, that's why I could pay much attention to the vowels he chooses to use (again - especially important in the curbing parts).

Hope this helps!

Jens: Do you happen to have a backing track for Master f the Wind? I'm still waiting for some Lost Horizon and Outworld tunes from you:)

[akarawd]

Hey DJ,

Thanks for all the explanations and info. It's kinda shocking to read "2yt vids helped me" when I hear the jaw-dropping end result...

I'm gonna giv'em a try, although I'm not expecting to find sth new, just sth that worked nicely for you.

I have some more questions, as I'm trying to get the big picture here.

Have you always been able to sing with such great pitch / how much of your voice was there before you started working on it ?

Have you had any lessons and if yes with whom/did they help ? Do you have an exercise regime you stick to ?

Also, if you could give us some audio examples of how you "initiate" your rasp and explain further any changes (lowering of the soft palate,

higher tongue at the back, twanging etc) it'd be awesome.

Thanks in advance,

Thanos

PS. I don't know if you like Pantera, but with that incredible voice of yours , you could nail their songs !

[Olem]

And you did come very close ( to Adam´s voice), Djdeth! You did a great job, fierce grit there!

[ronws]

I like to think of this as theatrical hard rock and definitely harder to do than other genres. In other genres, you can get away with odd noises and shrieks and it's okay because it's part of the deconstructionism of that style, such as early punk. But music like this is to me, like opera. It is orchestrated and arranged. It contains a libretto (lyrics that tell a story but without sounding pedantic or preachy.) It has a more complex goal than boy and girl get together (and on and on.) And requires greater training in the voice. For example, for all of his uniqueness of tone and legendary status, Steven Tyler could not do this song as it is intended to be sung. And he won't, he will stick with what he does well. To me, this is on par with "Queen of the Ryche" in it's use of themes and arrangement. Whether you sound like the original singer or not, and you do sound similar to him, though I think that is an accident of genetics, just like our own Mike sounds a lot like Rob Halford, without trying, really.

Anyway, well done.

[DJDeth]

Thanos: The two videos finally made me realise how essential is a well balanced, light mix tone. When i get on the right spot with a light tone, it feels like I can build it up to whatever i want, put more chest in it, shift the placement of the voice very easily, darken the tone, brighten it, add grit and so on. When it clicked, it worked instantly for me. GIve it a try, maybe it will work for you too.

Answering your questions: when I first got into singing I couldn't sing a note higher than G4, I couldn't stay on pitch and the tone of my voice was nothing but funny. I think most of my friends could sing better than me (maybe I'll upload some of my earliest recordings so you can have some fun). But I always thought: 'What one man can do, another can do'. I'm still pretty sure about that and that keeps me going:) I had 2 or 3 lessons with a guy who had a kind of SLS/SS approach, but I wasn't too happy with it - he didn't pay any attention to my diaphram, and from some conversations I had had with some of my favourite singers I knew that the proper support is essential. So I thought that the guy doesn't know a shit:) Then I had maybe 5-6 lesson with a lady from music theatre, we did some air support exercise and she helped me a lot with placing my voice in the right spot and singing on the mask. She also polished my vowels a bit. I was happy with the lessons but it was too far away from where I lived. Then I had 2 lessons with a jazz singer with rock/metal past, but she was talking way too much and there was little time left for the excercises. And her approach wasn't working for me, and I got really irritated sometimes because I hate when something goes wrong and I don't know how to fix it:) Some teachers say that if a technique or a hint is good, than it should work instantly. Well, it didn't work instantly when I was practising with this teacher:)

I don't have any daily regime (although I know it would help). I'm just recording a lot, singing whenever I can, and when I can't sing then I'm humming some melodies with a very light, quiet voice. If someone would hear me on the street he would think there's something wrong with me (and he would probably be right:) Goofying arond with your voice, having fun with it, taking it all the way up and all the way down, experimenting with placement and configurations - that's what I do. I'll try and work on the clip you asked for later in the week.

Ronws: Thanks for the comment:) But I have to disagree with you. I don't think that it's genetics in my case. These are all vocal effects i put on my 'normal' voice to get the desired sound. Look how many singers here on the forum can emulate Axl or Johnson. I think I could do it too one day if I was heading that direction, but I prefer other kind of vocals. I've already heard people saying I have a timbre similar to Bruce, to Hansen, to Hansi (look just few threads ago:), and now, for the first time, I hear that it's close to Adams. I know I can also sound close to King Diamond, Jaymz, sometimes I can get a timbre similar to Kiske in his headvoice. Just recently I discovered my Barlow voice (both the low one and the violent mid-range one) And those are all completely different singers I mention here, each of them is just so unique! Of course I'm not close to them when it comes to the awesomeness of their singing, I'm talking about emulating them, getting a similar tone. If I can do it, anyone can. The question is, does it make any sense to do it? My anser is: yes:D

[ronws]

Ronws: Thanks for the comment:) But I have to disagree with you. I don't think that it's genetics in my case. These are all vocal effects i put on my 'normal' voice to get the desired sound. Look how many singers here on the forum can emulate Axl or Johnson. I think I could do it too one day if I was heading that direction, but I prefer other kin

And I will continue to disagree with you. There have been exactly two people in this forum that can approach Axl's sound and I am not one of them, in spite of being inspired by his singing. One is a one time poster friend of mine from a Guns and Roses fan forum. And the other is jonpall. But Jonpall is a freak of nature. He has one of those voices that can emulate a wide range but I dare say his base tone is actually similar to Axl's clean sound and that is genetics. And the other one, the friend from another forum, already sounds like Axl without any special vocal modification. Sorry to burst your bubble. My study of genetics actually came about through study of canid evolution but it informs me how much genetics plays a role in something. And I know that will hurt some feelings, something I am genetically good at (I get it from my mother.)

I think it's possible to sing in the style of a person but not sound like them. I can sing in the style of Ronnie James Dio but I don't sound like him. Not trying to, either. Why try to sound like him? We've already had a Dio. Why not have a ronws? Or am I so horrible that I shouldn't be heard and should only be heard if I can sound like or some other famous singer? What if Ronnie James Dio felt that way? What if he felt he couldn't do anything unless he sounded like Frankie Vallie from the Four Seasons?

But good luck in your efforts, anyway.

[DJDeth]

Then your study of evolution stands in contradiction to what I'm experiencing in my little 'evolution' as a singing person:) Let's get back to that Eric Adams sound - I don't look anything like him when it comes to facial features, so I assume the resonators in my face are different than his. I'm a lot taller than him, so I suppose the lenght of our vocal tracts are different. I'm not saying that you should sound like Ronnie, or that anyone should sound in any particular way. What I am saying is that trying to emulate different singers can be a great practice, it can give a wide range of expression forms that one can use in his/her own singing, and most of all, It helps to get to know one's own voice better.

[ronws]

And I agree, picking up influences from other singers is a great way to stretch your voice, as long as that is all that it is. For example, emulating Geoff Tate for going in to low head voice early is an excellent thing to do, even if the result doesn't sound like him. Learning to sound "dusty" with a shuffle beat, ala Eric Clapton, is great too, for a slow blues feel. Learning to whine through your nose like Axl Rose has benefits, too.

But science is on my side, no matter how young you are and how much you think you know.

Nor am I immune from failings just because I am an old guy and have probably been singing longer than you have been alive (which doesn't make me better or even good at it.) I constantly ask myself who is it that I sound like, even as I rejoice in unique sounds. Honest answer, I think I sound like no one I have ever heard. The closest I think depends on which song. My wife thinks I sound sometimes like David Byron (original singer for Uriah Heep. A fantastic compliment, in my book). My father-in-law thinks I sound like Luka Bloom, an irish tenor, especially on his hit song, "Ciara" (pronounced keer-ah).

But I think you said it best, without realizing it. Your belief contradicts my knowledge of science in "your evolution as a singer." For you think you are sounding like all these singers by whatever modifcations you make. So, your estimation of your sound is based on your belief system. As we all know to well, others hear us differently than we hear ourselves. You do sound similar to Eric, in my objective opinion, but not exactly like him, and that is based on my perception of tonailty, not just my knowledge of the science of genetics.

But you go right ahead and ignore science. That is the privilege of youth.

And again, good luck.

[DJDeth]

Ronws, I wasn't refering much to my beliefs, I was rather refering to what I experience and what other seem to experience when listening to my efforts. Experience in not based on a belief system. I don't know what scientific statements you are refering to, but if they really contradict what I get to know empirically, then maybe it would be worth reconsidering them:)

And I don't think I stated that I sound like any of the singers I mentioned. What I said was that I am able of sounding similar (or am able to getting to the point of sounding similar by practicing). If it's done well enough that it can trick the listener into thinking it's the original singer and not me - I would consider it somehow an objective 'achievement', showing that I really changed the esthetics of the sound. In other words, the feedback I get, also what you called your 'objective' (though I hope you ment 'subjective';)) opinion is an objective sign of the results my efforts bring.

But believe me, in my case it's all about streching my voice and finding it's limits, when it comes to searching for a unique sound, I prefer to do it in my own stuff rather than in cover songs.

Byron was the Man.

Akarawd: I only like the early speed metal Pantera:)

Cheers!

[DJDeth]

Ronws, one more thing! You asked what would happen if Ronnie James Dio wanted to sound like some other singer. I think it's a great question, I don't really know what his inspirations were and how far away he moved from them (probably you can tell me?). But on the other hand there's another question: how would Eric Adams sound if he haven't emulated Gillan. Would he be able to scream like this? Would Dickinson belt all those notes if it weren't for Gillan? How about Scheepers. How would he sound (would he sing at all!) if it weren't for Halford? Same thing goes for Ripper (also very much influenced by Dio, and perfect at emulating him). Would there be Kiske and Cyriis without Tate? Or Sammet without Kiske and Dickinson? My answer is: I don't know.

[ronws]

Funny thing is, I don't think Eric Adams sounds like Ian Gillan.

But I get it, you've got a viewpoint and nothing is going to change that.

Blessings to you and go in peace.

[Jens]

djdeth add me to msn: jens_86_johansson@hotmail.com and il share you some songs :)

[jonpall]

Guys, guys, guys ... all of these singers are basically emulating Robert Plant ;)

[jonpall]

I'm actually only slightly kidding here. I think that a lot of that high pitched rock vocal stuff originated from Robert Plant. Anyway...

Ronws, I'm flattered by your compliments and glad that you like some of my singing, but calling me a freak of nature might be appropriate if I could do all those tough songs live with my band, night after night and not just ALMOST without ever being shakey in the studio with the possibility of retakes. Even my vocal heroes could eliminate all the shakyness in the studio. I still don't feel I'm quite "there", but give me a year or so, maybe less, and I feel there is a chance in hell I could do it semi well. I have the feeling that DJDeath is someone who can do this almost like driking water as of now, live with his band, and probably Snax, among other few forums members, too. They sound very, very pro. I'm proud of my achievements and I'm very happy where I stand and where I'm going, but I'm also realistic about my current skills.

Ronws, I can see the point you're making in this thread and I agree with lots of it. But when I hear myself speak and compare it with how Axl speaks, I don't think our voices are very alike. Well, maybe to some people. Perhaps you can find some tonalities that are similar. People hear things differently.

Here's my speaking voice (and a middle pitched rasp and some high rasp): http://www.box.net/shared/eknsc0vvh8

[Jens]

ronws not to be a bitch but im afraid science is against you since voiceproduction(speaking, singing) is learned and not a natural thing to do. The folds first function is acting like guarddogs for the lungs the second function is speech and sound.

gotta agree with djdeth here, you can learn how to get a similar vocalsetting to your heroes.

But sure genetics always plays a part, and some are more talented than others ect ect.

[jonpall]

Here's a guy who is good at impersonating other singer's voices:

.

[akarawd]

DJ, Thanks a lot for the clear and precise answers, I really appreciate it.

Seems like you had a lot of innate talent that you had to bring to the surface - and you did so in the best possible way.

Definitely looking forward to hearing more cool clips from you !

Thanos

[DJDeth]

Jonpall, Akarawd and others, thanks for the comments. Such a positive feedback is very motivating for me and really keeps me going! You can be sure that I'll be posting more clips... and it will be pretty soon actially;] The guy from the link is really good, I loved his Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler:D

[Stan]

Shit, that was wicked DjDeath! I wanna get that grit too!