How do you review? Do you consider your criteria responsible?

[ScratchTracks]

Or the pool boy . Joking Ron. Lol

[ronws]

I know a couple of pool boys. The company I work for is involved in the swimming pool industry. Honestly, seriously. We do electrical work involved with swimming pools, spas, and outdoor living environments.

I bet you didn't expect that.

And Mel Brooks said, "It's good to be the king."

[Felipe Carvalho]

Jens I may use the idea, tnx.

Tommy, yeah you are right, well Ill just think of something else hehehaahaha Poor approach.

Tnx for the replies. Nice thread.

ronws I have no clue of what you are talking about on most of your posts man, I sincerely didnt see the dogs thing, I was replying to Rach on the didatics stuff. But well no, I dont agree with it either.

[ScratchTracks]

Hehe Ron.. No... I did not.. haha :)

[Jens]

Thanks Felipe the reason i belive so is because it's so good damn easy you rob people of the most important singingskill...

Confidence... Ive seen singers with gooddamn near perfect technique Throw whole recordingsessions away because they where pitchy in à fewspots wich people commented.

Started to compensate, and then tensions creep in.., you know the rest.

Also the reason for the socalled "diva" singers, i belive they have to think that High of thenselves to be able to perform that way.

Cheers

[napoleonboot]

I think maybe people should sign up for for the type of reviews they want, choose from the following types:

A. "Good Job" only

B. honest comments on problems, only allowed if specifics/guidance is given by the reviewer

C. Erronious nonsense.

I think I generally receive about 90% type A, 8% type B and 2% type C.

Mind you perhaps some of my stuff genuinely warrants only type A comments, or maybe you are all just being kind. Type A makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Type B helps me get better (which is why I visit this site), and type C wastes my time and annoys me. Don't be kind to me, I want the type B comments

Over the 18 months I've been here, I got a couple of type C comments, whch made me go away and think for a bit, mostly quizically head scratching stuff (timing errors, weak delivery - JEEZ!). Then shortly afterwards, in both cases, ronws ron posted and corrected the reviewer, saying they were talking nonsense. Thanks Ron! Kudos :cool:

[ronws]

Actually, in other uses, I have heard the term didactic applied to some speaking as if they were a teacher and an expert on whatever subject matter, whether they were or not.

Anyway, I've come to a conclusion about myself after all this discussion.

I'm going to go ahead and say good job when I feel like it. I am not a vocal expert, coach, or teacher. I work an average of 50 hours a week in winter and more than that in summer. So, I doubt I'm going to have time to be a rock star or a singing coach. And my opinion and $1.70 USD will get you a Diet Coke. So, whether I say good job or you were flat on this or that note, give it approximately $1.70 worth of value.

For I am also a member of the music buying public. I spent some money earned by stress that you cannot possibly imagine in order to buy "Drop Dead" by Drop Head. Good music is good music, whether the singer is the most technically accomplished or not.

If I say I like a song, I mean that I like it. Everyone may not be like me. I think it's kind of neat when someone who fancies himself a bit of an opera singer sings rock in an opera-like fashion. I also liked it when Celine Dion covered "Shook Me all Night Long" by AC/DC. And I maybe the only one that liked it.

I also liked Dolly Parton's cover of "Heaven" by Collective Soul. And she did it bluegrass style, but with the original arrangement.

Then, again, I am an odd guy.

And for all of you guys who particiipated in the discussion, bar none, "good job."

(as I make a quick exit ...)

:lol:

[Guest]

Perhaps this section could be changed to just a place to post your stuff rather than posting for critique. Change the name to "Open Jam" or "The Music Room" or "Member Spotlight" or something.

Purely for entertainment (or not ) :D

[mr-leonor99]

I don't think its a good Idea, you post you're stuff so you know if its good or bad, so you know what you should work on, if its not the purpose then its useless

[Jens]

Exactly, it's essential. Lev Vygotsky calls it the: "Zone of proximal development". And Kierkegaard emphasizes it's importance:

It's didactics at its core.

yes and the sad part that this is true. Didactics is littered with this, stating the obvious Throw in some Fancy words make sound like youve made it up... Most important is à lastname noone can pronunce...

In order to teach,you must know more and start from the level they are at... Omg i did it with only one sentence!

ive read didactics when i studied to teacher felt like à mage from hogwarts...

"When one's under the temper of a female turn around or forever be embraced by the flames"

(kierkegaardner)

"When the womens give you attitude drop it like it's hot"

-Snoop dog

[Max]

I like honest feedback. honesty I'd good, I'm not going to lose sleep over negative comments, and if they point something out to me that I can work on then great, because I think as singers we all have specific ideas about how we want to sound and can end up focusing on certain areas of our voices while neglecting other areas, and we don't realise we are doing it. But, for me the main criteria for judging someone's voice is if I like the sound or not, and it's that simple.

[Felipe Carvalho]

If I say I like a song, I mean that I like it.

And thats all what I was asking, and what I see people having so much trouble to respond

No matter the ammount of knowledge you have, its the most important bit of information you can give on a review/critique. Trying to give out the ultimate wisdom or teach everyone that ask for an opinion is a strange posture, to say the least.

I will answer my own question now:

I do point technical problems I hear, yes, I do point somethings I know that can help yes, but I dont write information when I know it will not serve any purpose, specially exercises and the likes.

Whatever I write here, I write as another singer and as a listenner. I am not giving "didatics" or some psychological mumbo-jumbo. I do spend some considerable time before writing stuff and I can do some more than just like/not like, but I dont pretend to be the ultimate source of information or have the final word in this. As long as my opinion is concerned, and in the technical side I tend to be quite accurate, you can count that its just what Ive perceived listenning to what was presented, no didatics involved.

And even if I am pointing technique stuff that I consider of importance, I do give out what I thought of it, do I like it? Yes or no? Its the least I can do.

In the end of the day guys, no matter your didatics strategies when teaching, which is not the case, this is what an opinion is all about, and everyone can give this out, everyone know if they like or dont like what they are hearing. If not you take for yourselves the job of the singer, which is processing this feedback. If the information given will be used or discarded, as Tommy said, its a matter of how much you trust the source, and your will to use the infor or not .

Jens I do see your point, but lets say I dont quite agree on the implementation. Poiting out good stuff that can be used is great, and I do try, but ignoring problems that I know that are of significance, not really. Confidence is important, but its also important that you are placing your confidence on something that can respond to it. Confidence is not closing your eyes and just ignoring negative opinions, confidence is looking at them, taking what you can use, discarding what is not important for you and moving on. If the person cant take negative opinions, then its best to find another field of activity or hobby, but then again, does it even exists? In which profession you are allowed to take such stance?

Speaking of the technical side and what we can do, there are things that are simply not possibly to be worked via text:

Emission for example is critical, if its not ballanced and ajusted, not only it will get in the way, it can result in health conditions. I am not asking if its critical, Im not debating if its critical, I know its so. Even if I like something sang on top of an emission that is too pressed or too weak, I will say that I like it, but I will make it clear that the problem exists and can not be ignored. And no, there is nothing that any of us can do via text to address this problem, it must be worked carefully and it takes time to refine and consolidate it. Nothing done on top of a problematic emission is good as far as technique is concerned, it must be addressed after its ajusted.

And no, when I give my opinion on sounding good/not, I am not considering technical accuracy or virtuose, its just me, as a listenner, as if I was doing takes for a recording, or if I was listenning to material of a band to play in a bar I owned. In these situations I wouldnt care less if the person is spitting blood to do the job, as long as it sounded good, thats what is needed .

Its all I can do: Hear this and that, like and dont like it. To fix it, do this or that, most of the times the fix will be "seek instruction", and I think its a quite wise thing to do, I really mean it when I say so. Something good and desirable that should be kept and used, like a comfortable and homogeneous production, I will praise, in many occasions I did so in these forums.

Hopefully what I write is trustworthy, but I have no direct control over that, all I can do is make some effort so that I keep it sincere and hope it to show.

Cheers ;)

[Jens]

Yes i completly agree Felipe, but mainly My point is if you use your socialskills when you critique you will help people more.

I also agree on the whole didactics parts, but Every time i see vygotsky i get alittle mad thinking about those hours ive wasted :/ and now all of à Sudden he appears on My favourite forum

[Guest]

Yes i completly agree Felipe, but mainly My point is if you use your socialskills when you critique you will help people more.

True. Some people don't hear the good advice because they turn themselves off as soon as they hear the harsh intro to the statement.

There can be a great gift inside a package but no one will open it if the packaging isn't attractive enough.

[Jens]

Well thats à way to see it. What i find effective about it is it's alot easyer to take something you did good and apply that to weak parts.

like part A of the song is great in this Singer great emotion and is on pitch

Part b is not that good it's pitchy ect.

It's more powerfull to say part à is really good apply that feeling to part b and youve got à homerun than to say part à is good part b is pitchy ect...

Thats atleast how I feel works best

this works i need to do it again

vs

I did this bad i need to correct it

I find it personaly easyer if i view it from the first way. Both for me and for others

[MDEW]

Being one of the people who post here because I know I have problems, A slap on the back is pretty cool when it comes from most of you here. I know that it doesn't mean that I succeded and can stop trying make things better. It only means to me that I am improoving.

Also the reason that I post here is because I know that I have problems and am hoping that someone will hear what I do not.

I already think that I am doing things correctly. I see the posts on proper support. I think I am doing that so what's the problem? I see the posts on passaggio. I think I am doing that so what's the problem? On and on...

The answer truely is get a coach or professional to teach you. But there are many here who have a coach and are asking the same questions. To them is said get a different coach. That one is not teaching what you need.

For me the 50 year old beginner who has been singing since the age of 7 and is still singing with bad emission no twang (other than his hillbilly accent) and lack of focus in his voice, I say if you have a tip or something that helped you over a roadblock please share it.

If it takes someone telling me that I am too nasal or lack support, so be it. Usually someone recognizes a problem in others because they had that problem at one time. They are the ones that can help.

So why is it that a 50 year old cannot sing with proper support? There was not a forum like this that existed when he was younger. When he asked how he could improove he was told just do it or sing to the back of the room. When he asked other singers that could do it, they did not know themselves.

The people are here because they have been in the same situation and they want to help. Or they are here because they are seeking help.

So if you tell me that it was bad I believe you and I will try what you suggest. If you tell me something was good I believe there was something good about it.

[ronws]

I agree to disagree with the notion that just because someone doesn't like negative opinions, that they should find another hobby or interest. And let me use myself as an example. Let's say that I give a negative review, regardless of how I phrase it. And the other person doesn't like it, even if I am right. That does not mean that they should give up singing just because they did not like my review. And I accomplish nothing by telling them to get another hobby if they can't take criticism.

For me, such a statement is counterproductive. I don't care to tell people to go away from singing. That being said, the people that should go to something else need to realize that for themselves. Essentially, competence in anything takes "work." And if you are driven to do it, then a negative review will not deter you, even if you didn;t like the review. Also, to not like and ignore a negative review should not be an invitation to leave it. Tony Iommi thought that Ozzy could not sing. Ozzy didn't let that negative review deter him. And before we talk about deficiencies in Ozzy's singing technique, I would have to point out that he's been singing in various bands since the late 60's. So, whatever he is doing, he has longetivity. And numerous well-selling albums, to boot. Which is not to justify the way that he sings. But not being a technically perfect singer has not stopped him from singing.

On the flip side, I do agree that one can expect negative opinion in any field of interest. Even in my field of work where people don't even think of saying it nicely. "That looks like doggy doo-doo. Tell me, are you blind in one eye and don't see too well with the other?" Seriously, I have heard critiques stated far more harshly than anything in here. I once told a co-worker that he should think of something else besides electrical work and not because he was bad at it (and he was bad at it.) But because he only took the job to have a job and did not have his heart in it. Couldn't focus on it, could not handle heights (we were working on a 95 foot tall stadium light that you had to free-climb.) But he told me more about law enforcement and law enforcement vehicles than I would have ever known, otherwise. I suggested he might look in that direction, as he had a talent and an interest for it. So, I was not sending him away from singing but trying to send him to what he really wants to do, and that's a different perspective.

And there's nothing wrong with posting here if you think you need work on something. As well as just posting something you think you did well and want to share, and as Tommy pointed out, want some applause. And not everyone will be a fan. Be prepared for that, too.

[Guest]

Ok, get ready to throw stones at me but here is my harsh take. I will say that due to the new and seemingly more popular way of treating everyone with a gentle hand, I am taking a step back and reviewing my own ways lest I be cast out as a bad person. I am not, I am just old school. But up until recently this has been my way. I am not completely out of this way yet...I admit. Here goes.

I have taught martial arts for the last 23 years. I have also coached MMA fighters and some boxers for the last 5 years. I have recently stopped teaching accept for the occasional stand in for someone that may need me to fill in while they are away or something. But basically I stay away and do my own thing. Why? Because everyone these days are coddled and babied for fear of hurting feelings or causing people to quit much like has been discussed here.

I had to teach two karate classes tonight as a favor to the owners of the gym where I train for free. I train there for free with the agreement that I will stand in if needed in the karate class or coach the MMA fighters. When I look around the class I keep my composure but if it were my class no one would be wearing a colored belt. They would all be wearing white belts (the beginner rank). I have had a black belt come train with me in the past that I have thrown a white belt at and told him he should be wearing that. Even after his more than 20 years training.

I have had people I refused to teach. I would tell them to try the school down the street, this isn't for them here. Why? They couldn't keep up. They need to be babied and told "you're doing good, keep up the good work."

I will be 56 years old next month. When I have 25 or 30 year olds that can't keep up with me then I can't even bring myself to listen to any excuses. If they are beginners I could understand. But if, after a few weeks or months they are still not coming along well then I have to look deeper. If they are trying really hard and just not making it is one thing. I can deal with that to a point. But if they are just wasting space and giving excuses or just don't have what it takes imo, then I tell them maybe they need to find another school. "Maybe you're not cut out for this." If they think I am wrong and keep searching out other places to train then that is up to them. That's fine. If their feelings are hurt and they now think they should just give up altogether, then that too is up to them and that is also fine even if I get the blame. In that case maybe they should also start wearing a skirt.

If you think you've got something then don't take anyone's criticism. Just keep moving. That's how people make it. They don't give up because someone hurt their feelings or no one believes in them. Awww, Boo Hoo hoo. They just keep going. That's what separates the winners from the losers. Don't come to my class with "sensei, my leg hurts tonight so I won't be able to do this or that." Or " hey coach, I had a hard day at work so I may not be able to give 100% tonight." Oh yea? Maybe you should have stayed home. If you walk through that door you do what we do or at least the very best you can without the beforehand excuses.

During a recent private lesson with anew fighter and the first time we met it went like this. I said " Ok, lets warm up. " We'll start with 100 pushups and I dropped to the floor and started. He followed suit without a word. That was good. That was a test. Had he said "100? I can only do 30 or 50." I would have said goodbye. You're not a fighter and you never will be. Go home. If my attitude causes him to quit trying to be a fighter and he gives up so be it. Then I was right...he doesn't have what it takes. you need to be stronger than that. Not a quiter. Again...maybe he needs a skirt.

Ahh, but alas. These days that makes me a bad guy. I need to pet peoples heads and stroke their egos. So I take the middle road. It's been a long time since I've found anyone willing to really train. I had a 40 year old recently, trying to give me the age excuse!! Me? You have got to be kidding me. I have heart trouble and I'm 55 and my body is held together with spit and tape. And he was wearing a black belt having trained for 30 years according to him. I told him if I were his teacher he would be wearing a white belt. Actually, I told him I would never accept him in my class in the first place. I'd refuse to teach him. He needs to be babied and I can assume it is because he has been babied already for the last 30 years he has been training. There is a difference between 30 years of training and 1 year of training 30 times

How the hell is he gonna throw the age thing at me? What!!!

Then he wanted to spar. I suggested we not. '"I don't think it's a good idea." He pressed Ok...you think you want to train with me? This is how it is. We sparred. I broke his rib.

Now go home. Ask your wife for a skirt.

We didn't get compliments when we were coming up. We got "do it over." A compliment was something you wished for and was rare. But not getting one, at one time, meant we just tried harder.

You are what you believe you are, not what other say you are or aren't.

Ok...I'm ducking the tomatoes. Hey I'm changing. Well....trying.

[Jens]

Tommy i dunno if i missed it? But exactly how long was it again since you started training in the Cobra Cai dojo?

[Guest]

:D

I can see how it may sound like that. But it isn't. But it is about finding yourself "by yourself." If you look to use your instructor as a crutch your journey goes off course. There is a traditional way of teaching (in Old Okinawa you needed a letter of recommendation and even then you could be turned away after interviewing with the instructor. Some dojo are still run that way. It's about mindset) and then there is the new fangled treat everyone kindly method. That is about money. But that is " Traditional karate." That is a way of life mixed with self defense. That isn't sport and it isn't about winning a trophy. It is about finding your inner self which is a self journey. A strong mindset is needed there and the weak don't make it. I was trained by Japanese and at times Okinawan instructors. I trained before they used safety equipment and had bathroom breaks or were allowed to ask "can I get a drink of water." It's all about hardships. But the point is there isn't any hand holding.

But like I said that is the traditional stuff. MMA or boxing or Muay Thai are different. Those are about winning and for that it is a whole different ballgame and that is even worse as far as "can you hack it." That is about winning and winning in a time frame of a bout. No giving up with 10 seconds left in a round.

Inner strength is what gets you through life. You can be guided but it is really self development. Not hugs and stroking. When I teach traditional martial arts it isn't about winning. It is about not losing and developing the mind through hardship. You can train with me and not want to fight. Train only for self development and that is fine. As long as you continuously show development and a will to push forward. But that is still hard training and no one will baby you. You basically teach yourself with my guidance. You joke about it but the "karate kid" points at this in a "movie way." Cobra Kai were just bullies. But you think it is fun for Daniel washing a crap load of cars? Or painting all that fence or sanding all that decking? Hardships. That builds character. If you can't hack it you lose. If he complained he would have been sent home. But they don't show that because then you have no movie

But again, there is no time for those who wish to ride coat tails. You don't develop the inner strength by someone else doing the work. if you choose the self defense aspects of traditional training that is very hard because it has to be realistic otherwise you are setting yourself up for trouble in a real situation.

The guy with the busted rib sounds harsh. But he "thought" he could cope. He could not and inside himself was his own bad news. Once he saw that it really takes much more than he was willing to give of himself to actually train and move forward. His own fears broke his rib. I didn't do it on purpose. But it was at that point I told him to go. Rethink. This isn't your thing man. You're 12 years younger than me you are unwilling to condition your mind to push ahead when the going gets tough. You want rest and water breaks. Real life doesn't allow that.

[Jens]

I think thats bullshit sorry little though love here.

You will NEVER know where a student ends if you dismiss him.

Then youve already failed, hence the cobra Kai joke.

And when à real life situation do come it's not always who youd expect who steps up to the plate...

You may wanna angle it as if they dont have what it "takes". But it is you who failed as a teacher, you couldnt teach that particular student...

It's nothing wrong with that everybody fails sometimes, ive had some students when i was a studying teacher that I couldnt reach how hard I even tried. there probably is some other teacher out there who could have inspired these better than I could. So it's a failure, it's also a teachers "Job" to help people get inspired to give then what it takes

[Guest]

I think thats bullshit sorry little though love here.

You will NEVER know where a student ends if you dismiss him.

Then youve already failed, hence the cobra Kai joke.

And when à real life situation do come it's not always who youd expect who steps up to the plate...

You may wanna angle it as if they dont have what it "takes". But it is you who failed as a teacher, you couldnt teach that particular student...

I can see your point and after close to 40 years of experience I have considered it before many times. Especially after being almost forced to modify my ways or "the old ways" to conform to the new softer methods. "BUT!" There are still the non commercial dojo out there that many don't know about. They aren't well known because they are not in it for money. Only the true way. Students are accepted by interview and by letter of introduction. Not all are accepted. This is the way. However, what seems a failure at teaching may also be perceived as a failure by the student.

If the perspective student figures it out and comes back to try again he may make it the second (or third) time. Then he has already taught himself a valuable lesson. And has also taught me and others around him. That is true martial arts. If he decides, after being turned down the first time, to walk away with his tail between his legs and try an "easier" dojo, then he has set himself up for failure at some point and has already missed the message.

All hope is not lost. After a time he may realize and come back. In both cases I end up having indirectly taught something as well as learned. So in some small way this concept overlaps into other endeavors in life. I don't fully believe in not knocking someone down a peg or two to build character and help them succeed. If they can't take it then maybe there are other issues that need addressing and they should solve those before pursuing a baseball or singing career or the Presidency or whatever.

[Jens]

Yes ofc i actualy edited that post abit somehow it didnt show up. i agree with you.

[Guest]

By the way. A good example is how you said I failed as a teacher. If not for my training that might hurt me. But, just like in singing, I carry on anyway based on everything and not what one or two people say that may sting. I have been very successful and sought after in my teaching over the years ans still today. Even the busted rib guy still calls me and text msg me to keep trying to get me to teach him. But I no longer teach and he refuses to listen I keep telling his teacher to tell him to stop!!

So things like that over ride anyone who has anything negative to say. I understand there will always be those that are for and those against. It's what makes the world go round. I just keep on keepin' on and that is my point. Strength of mind and strength of will. Not the thorns of other peoples insults or lack of support.

I like to teach strength but I like "you" to find it. That creates true strength. Not me pointing it out to you. You have to work your own brain

Thanks Jens....interesting and stimulating. Boring to others though :D

[napoleonboot]

I spent 25 years learning, and teaching, Aikido. There are different schools there as well. And a lot of bull. Somewhere in there is the good stuff, but lots of it is really poor.

Part of maturing is knowing when its the good stuff and when it's bull AND don't allow yourself to be convinced that the bull is real thing, but if you start out with the wrong coach you may waste a lot of time (and money) going the wrong way.

The top teachers dont teach the way they were taught, which is what made them good, but teach in some new fangled ways. Thus there students aren't as good as they are. The few teachers who do teach in the old ways are seen as hard and humourless.

There are whole schools of Aikido up to the top levels that are nonsense. I got fed up with it in the end. The guy I learnt from trained full-time in a hard school in Japan for a while after he left the army, and he also got fed up in the end with the bull, and also gave up. He was the 2nd best non-Japanese I have ever seen. He scared the s**t out of me regularly, and I was his top student and had been with him for years!

Ho hum.

LETS ROCK N' ROLL!