Hi guys, trying to achieve a more relaxed vocal, comparison tracks;

[Rick Jones]

I have always been a guitarist first and a singer second, but I have wanted to change that for a long while.

I went to a group lesson with some singers from a local harmony group, which is absolutely different from my usual way of singing....I've always chased a rock vocal kind of tone, but the guys there said I sounded very much nicer and more in control of pitch when I sang in a quiter more relaxed manner.

Here are two original songs of mine, one recorded before this advice, and one since;

"Exit Ramp" is the more relaxed vocal, I wasn't "trying" in any sense that I'm used to to sing, just kind of sing/talking,which felt odd to me (I think my nose sounds blocked on M and N sounds on here);

"Eden" is my more usual way of singing;

If you have time, would you please add any advice or comment you feel is appropriate, and if I am onto the right track as a vocalist by relaxing more?

Thanks in advance,

Rick

[analog]

Man,

Very impressive songwriting...seriously. Also, I would kill for your guitar tone(and certainly technique.)

As far as vocals...I'm of the opinion that as long as it feels good and sounds the way you want it to sound..it's all good.

They were both viable options and should be considered as additional sound colors for your vocal palette. I personally liked your "usual way," but thought the "relaxed way" worked too. I see no problem in mixing 'em up in a song(to give a little more color and variety.)

Great sound.

[chele1000]

Rick,

I love "Eden"! What a great song with a great hook. Great guitar playing as well. Great singing! I can't find any criticism at all. :cool: Do you have any more with higher range perhaps? Oh, I think you sing well in all songs. Suits your style perfectly!

What do you want to change? What sound are you looking for? I would recommend not straying too far from where you are because it's suits YOU. Unique is what you need to be.

My opinion of course.

[Rick Jones]

Wow, thanks guys, I really wasn't expecting that, and thanks for the kind words on my music!

Michelle, I don't reall have any songs where I use a higher register for longer, as I still haven't learned to comfortably use it.... my head voice is kind of fluety and falsetto sounding, and very different from my usual singing...and I haven't really learned how to render it useable.

If I sing in the more relaxed way, as on exit ramp, it is closer to sounding similar, I intend to figure it out and expand my range upward, but my speaking voice is naturally fairly deep and my lowest usable note is around the same as the low E on my guitar.

What I'd like to achieve is a freer voice, to be able to go up and down pitches more smoothly,and also to tail off my notes better, they sound very "cut off" and abrupt/germanic (if that makes sense) to me when I compare them to other singers I like.

Thanks guys for taking the time out to listen, and any advice would be gratefully recieved.

:)

[ronws]

I couldn't see any problem with your singing and I love the layered guitar in "Eden." I noticed that you sing with a little more rasp in "Eden."

Just remember that the guys who thought you sounded better on the "relaxed" (read that as quieter) timbre are about singing harmony, where as your natural voice and how you "usually" sing as more lead vocal quality to it. You might be a square peg they are expecting to fit into a round hole. I do the best I can to take suggestions or criticism with as much as I can glean from the person's preferences offering the suggestions. Example, I have long been a fan of Guns and Roses. A friend of mine is a monster Queensryche fan (I like them, too.) And he hates Axl Rose's voice. So, should his opinon of my taste in music as for having a favored band be taken at face value, or should I also realize that he has a different set of criteria? What would a Bel Canto coach think of Joe Walsh?

I hope you can remember that most people talk from their particular viewpoint, which is not always the be all and end all of truth, much to their chagrin. Keep doing what you are doing.

[VideoHere]

Rick,

I love "Eden"! What a great song with a great hook. Great guitar playing as well. Great singing! I can't find any criticism at all. :cool: Do you have any more with higher range perhaps? Oh, I think you sing well in all songs. Suits your style perfectly!

What do you want to change? What sound are you looking for? I would recommend not straying too far from where you are because it's suits YOU. Unique is what you need to be.

My opinion of course.

i second that opinion...nice job....

[chele1000]

Are the people you're listening to doing the same style as you? If so.....ok.

I'm thinking that you could accomplish 90% of your goal by focusing a little bit on phrasing. Make the words flow a bit better. Connect the sounds a bit more and hold the notes a bit longer at the end of your sentences.

Try that and see how it changes things. :)

[gno]

Wow! Excellent performances. I love your guitar work and you voice fits perfectly with your style - both songs. You don't really need to do anything with your voice if you don't want to - you are a natural. But if your are interested in improving your voice you've come to the right place. For one, if you want to sing full voice up another octave (in addition to your falsetto singing) you can do that. You'll need to learn to sing through your passagio (E4 to Ab4) and there is a "trick" to learning how do do that.

An easy improvement is this: Try smiling while you sing. You'll add some brightness to your tone by raising and energizing the cheekbones.

[Rick Jones]

Are the people you're listening to doing the same style as you? If so.....ok.

I'm thinking that you could accomplish 90% of your goal by focusing a little bit on phrasing. Make the words flow a bit better. Connect the sounds a bit more and hold the notes a bit longer at the end of your sentences.

Try that and see how it changes things.

Hmm, well, I don't really listen to music (or know of any) that sounds alot like I do....I'm very much a grunge/rock/metal guy when it comes to listening....my own music has come out completely differently to what I personally like, maybe as a result of being a solo performer.

But singers I love are guys like Chris Cornell, Layne Staley, The guy from Shinedown, Eddie Vedder.

The only one I have any vague idea of being able to sing is Mr. Vedder, not that I worry about sounding "like" them, but I sound very amateur in comparison I feel.

I will concentrate on phrasing, thankyou for the advice...I am aware my accent makes the vowels abrubt and guttral, and am working on how to change that without "faking and accent"....but I find that hard.....how do you guys keep your own voice whilst smoothing out the vowel sounds?

I know alot of Southern singers have already that singsong kind of tone just when speaking,as do Italians, which gives them lovely sounding vowels to sing with. Short of emulating the accent I don't know how to do this myself.

I will absolutely try and hold the notes as you say, maybe what I am hearing is this and hadn't realised, thankyou Michelle!

Wow! Excellent performances. I love your guitar work and you voice fits perfectly with your style - both songs. You don't really need to do anything with your voice if you don't want to - you are a natural. But if your are interested in improving your voice you've come to the right place. For one, if you want to sing full voice up another octave (in addition to your falsetto singing) you can do that. You'll need to learn to sing through your passagio (E4 to Ab4) and there is a "trick" to learning how do do that.

An easy improvement is this: Try smiling while you sing. You'll add some brightness to your tone by raising and energizing the cheekbones.

Thankyou again for the kindness!! I appreciate the time to listen, and glad you like my playing, as a fellow guitarist!

A natural?? Really?? Wow...I would have thought myself to be in need of much work to be passable!! That's very encouraging, thankyou!!

The advice on smiling is very good, even trying it here whilst playing I feel what you mean, and brightness is definately something I was seeking in my tone.

I definately want to improve though, I'd like to be more versatile....and even if I rarely used it, to have the high range in reserve, as well as I'm sure it will help my overall singing.

I am going to purchase Robert Lunte system soon, and work with that, and it is nice to know I can talk to others with experience on this forum!

Thankyou again and I wish healthy happy singing to all!!

[ronws]

I would also suggest checking Robert Lunte's youtube channel. He sings and uses the techniques he teaches. I think you will find that he has the pedagogy to get you where you want to go.

My first memory of Chris Cornell is of course with the break-out hit "Loud Love" from his days with Sonic Garden. That opening piercing wail, nearly guaranteed to shatter glass. But I think he modernly uses curbing and some crying resonance. As well as does Eddie Vedder.

When I hear the late Layne Staley and the current singer, William Duvall, I hear twanging, even though the band was marketed as grunge, I still think of them as a hard rock group, with maybe some grunge song stylings. But I also think of Pearl Jam (with Eddie Vedder) as hard rock that happened to be labeled grunge. And that is also Vedder's viewpoint. Especially from his own perspective as seen in the episode of "Iconoclasts" when talking with his friend, surfer Laird Hamilton. I think a number of hard rock bands that didn't immediately slap on the glam or "hair metal" fashions were unfairly labelled grunge and record companies were directing record producers to give the songs a "grunge" feel, trying to capitalize on the Nirvana momentum.

[Rick Jones]

I would also suggest checking Robert Lunte's youtube channel. He sings and uses the techniques he teaches. I think you will find that he has the pedagogy to get you where you want to go.

My first memory of Chris Cornell is of course with the break-out hit "Loud Love" from his days with Sonic Garden. That opening piercing wail, nearly guaranteed to shatter glass. But I think he modernly uses curbing and some crying resonance. As well as does Eddie Vedder.

When I hear the late Layne Staley and the current singer, William Duvall, I hear twanging, even though the band was marketed as grunge, I still think of them as a hard rock group, with maybe some grunge song stylings. But I also think of Pearl Jam (with Eddie Vedder) as hard rock that happened to be labeled grunge. And that is also Vedder's viewpoint. Especially from his own perspective as seen in the episode of "Iconoclasts" when talking with his friend, surfer Laird Hamilton. I think a number of hard rock bands that didn't immediately slap on the glam or "hair metal" fashions were unfairly labelled grunge and record companies were directing record producers to give the songs a "grunge" feel, trying to capitalize on the Nirvana momentum.

Oh I totally agree, Pearl Jam were/are a hard rock band, and Alice in Chains were something all of their own in those days.

I am newish to the terminology, but if twang be the witches cackle/axl rose sound, then I hear alot of that in Layne. When I do this sound it's hideous/comedic....but I like it in singers like Layne. Is this sound something anyone could learn to harness? I can see uses for it in the occasional phrase.

I don't want to sound like these guys per se, just to be able to incorporate some elements of those techniques and have a freer voice.

Chris Cornell does some pretty darn high notes in seemingly chest voice....I am unfamiliar with the term "curbing", is this a way he is doing them?

My Dad had a huge country/bluegrass/old timey kind of record collection when I was young...if anything my own voice seems to follow this rather than the music I chose in my teens.....funny how it works.

[mvrasseli]

It sounds very professional, Good job. Guitar remember me Andy McKee, See you!! :)

[ronws]

Oh I totally agree, Pearl Jam were/are a hard rock band, and Alice in Chains were something all of their own in those days.

I am newish to the terminology, but if twang be the witches cackle/axl rose sound, then I hear alot of that in Layne. When I do this sound it's hideous/comedic....but I like it in singers like Layne. Is this sound something anyone could learn to harness? I can see uses for it in the occasional phrase.

I don't want to sound like these guys per se, just to be able to incorporate some elements of those techniques and have a freer voice.

Chris Cornell does some pretty darn high notes in seemingly chest voice....I am unfamiliar with the term "curbing", is this a way he is doing them?

My Dad had a huge country/bluegrass/old timey kind of record collection when I was young...if anything my own voice seems to follow this rather than the music I chose in my teens.....funny how it works.

One of my favorite bluegrass bands is the tribute band Hayseed Dixie, doing bluegrass bass version of AC/DC songs.

To me, curbing includes the crying timbre. And I think that is what Eddie Vedder specifically uses. What makes it sound like chest voice is that he puts support into it, applied constant air pressure. High notes, he goes into head voice with twang and some leaky air that makes it sound raspy.

And yes, you can do it.

[gno]

I don't want to sound like these guys per se, just to be able to incorporate some elements of those techniques and have a freer voice.

Chris Cornell does some pretty darn high notes in seemingly chest voice....I am unfamiliar with the term "curbing", is this a way he is doing them?

I just watched the Chris's really cool unplugged version of Black Hole Sun. In that song he does seem to use curbing, and at the end it seems like he is singing overdrive - G4 and A4.

Curbing somes from CVT terminology, and CVT has done a ton of research with all different kinds of singing. Their website is pretty informative and there are some youtube videos of Catherine demonstrating the different "modes". check out 3:00 on this video:

She demonstrates these different modes.

Overdrive is like yelling and has a limit to about C5. Whereas Curbing which is "holding" (crying) has virtually no upper limit. Twang is something you can apply to get a brighter resonance and power like Overdrive. It also allows you to go super high like Curbing.

[chele1000]

hello again Rick,

Just remember that learning all these different techniques and terms and doing exercises is great. Then you need to apply to your singing. It will be alot in your brain until it becomes second nature. This will be overwhelming for a while but it DOES get easier. It's like anything else you learn...some you will not need to think about anymore. It will just be second nature. But, give it time to get that way.

Being the only female responding I guess I have to be a woman and say ..and I quote from Billy Joel...."I Love You Just The Way You Are". Don't change your style!

cheers,

[Rick Jones]

Guitartrek, thanks for the video link, I found that very helpful with the terminology!

mvrasseli, thankyou very much!

'chele......thankyou for the advice, and also for the kindness, I will remain me, hopefully just a more in control of my voice version!:)