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Thoughts on the "Illusion" of Rock vocals

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Hello all,

been thinking about this for awhile. It may just be a me thing :) ...but what I found very confusing when I started "vocal training" was: the difference between the "recorded" sound and what was actually(acoustically) being sung. I found that what I was hearing, whether coming through a PA system or on a record, was this HUGE sound. So...off I would go trying to emulate it, and then ending up "forcing" the voice/blowing it out.

It took me quite a long time to accept that what I was hearing was not in fact as loud/belty(for the most part) as what the recording led me to believe. I think the coolest thing that really opened my mind up was hearing stuff on youtube A Capella(all backing tracks stripped out.) This obviously is still boosted with the most expensive recording equipment out there...but it started helping me "pull the curtain back" so to speak.

With that in mind, I started noticing that our own demos, when recorded at the typical distance from the mic, still obviously "boost" the vocals/give presence/ capture harmonics/etc. While this makes for a nice sounding vocal...it's still hard to really capture what's actually coming out of the mouth(as far as volume for sure.) Add on to that the bells and whistles ( cheap digital technology)and most people can produce a very slick, great sounding demo at home.

So, what all of this blathering is leading to is, I've been inspired by Martin H and how he records his demos(far back from the mic, allowing for an acoustic sound.) When he records, you get an idea(obviously still acoustic variables/equipment involved) of how he sounds acoustically. I think it's helpful from a technical/learning perspective to hear this...especially for the people who practice at home WITHOUT AMPLIFICATION. What I'm proposing is recording a "normal" take and then recording one far back from the mic.

If anyone is interested, I did a couple of lines from 'Roxanne' to demonstrate(I've been in a Police mood lately.)

This one is "close" to the mic(I still have the same shitty voice recorder, so it peaks.)

http://www.box.net/shared/o47ogjon7s

Next one is "far"(15 feet or so. Have no idea what the "perfect" distance is for this.)

http://www.box.net/shared/fca0990ptd

I tried to sing both with the same volume, but I'm not a robot and I hate singing a capella. It's also very possible that I "pushed" a little on the farther one, because I knew the mic was FAR AWAY. I tried not to.

{It's possible all my years of alcohol abuse have rotted my brain and this idea sounds retarded :P If so, let me know, it won't be the first time.}

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I think you have it exactly right. I was doing an example of my thoughts on the difference between falsetto, full voice, full volume, and full voice, soft volume. With falsetto, I can bring the mic close, with full voice soft volume I can have the mic kind of close. But with full voice full volume, I have the mic at least 1.5 feet away (mic in my lap). With the mic farther away, I could hear slight reverb from my voice bouncing off the walls. Which is part of what you would hear live. However, with these mics, especially the cheap ones, you lose bass overtones, even when close in. Part of it is simply due to the physical limitations of the mic and I know people are tired of hearing me say that and think I am using it as an excuse. But I can guarantee that if I was in the room with you, "Roxanne" would have sounded different, fuller. Even at a distance, the room is going to mix your voice. It's that danged ole' physics thingy.

If you don't mind, I will link in the example I am talking about.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8750209/better2.mp3

But yes, what you hear on an album or even in concert has several effects attached to it, not counting the amplification that goes along with such events.

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analog - you are right. all of the rock vocal records we hear are pretty compressed (and for the quiet parts expanded) which does add to that "belting" illusion. Your voice sounds great on the police tunes - nice curbing up way high.

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ronws,

excellent points. I think your demo is great at illustrating this. At 1.5 feet, it(vocal) still has an acoustic feel without being "overwhelmed" or "lost" by the room acoustics. Also, I've stated before that I'm right there with you on the crappy mic sounds. For training purposes though, I kind of like having the vocals completely dry(no effects or compression.)

Guitartrek,

if you don't mind helping me, you seem to be a complete bad-ass at engineering vocals(based on your demos.)

What is it that gives the vocal "presence"? Is it just capturing certain frequencies in the voice(along with having a great condenser mic, compressing,expanding,various effects?)

The most extreme example I can think of is AC/DC. Man Brian's vocals are(were) so ballsy and brassy and in your face(thinking about hearing Back in Black for first time as a kid.) Actually...he may be the perfect example of what I'm trying to get at here(that "fake belt" sound but sounding HUGE on the recording.)

Found a funny link with Brian and Jim Breuer here:

Love the "check me voice" bit at the beginning. Now that's feckin' rock n roll :)

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That's a cool video! That guy is amazing. I think the main thing in recording rock voice is the compressor. The compressor "evens" out the volume so that your voice can compete with the rest of the rock band. You can scream loud parts without overloading everything, and you can sing softer parts of the song without getting lost in the mix. They definitely have compression on Brian Johnson's mic.

A lot of people will boost the overall highs on the voice which adds presence. In my case I'm just using a compressor and my EQ is flat (except for rolling off the very lows below 125hz). The general rule of thumb in mixing rock is that only the kick drum and bass guitar are allowed below a certain frequency. Everything else gets the lows rolled off. There's really nothing on the vocal track below 125 anyway, it is a precaution in case the mic picked up a low rumble.. like my air conditioning kicked on or my kids were jumping on the kitchen floor, or something like that. We don't want that stuff to wind up in the mix.

I'm recording using condensor mic and a reflexion filter which allows me to record the voice without the added color of the room. The filter is like a vocal booth but less costly (and not so big). So my setup is: Condenser Mic Sure KSM27 (using a Reflexion filter) and a Compressor. A little reverb is added of course. That's how I recorded this track:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8878823

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wow

analog, serious vocals in full voice!!.

it's interesting though, as i interpreted/perceived roxanne as a falsetto vocal. it prompted me to try some of it.

i used windows sound recorder program and my trusty logitech $20 mic, i sang this 6 feet away in my store.

i took a stab at the second verse accapella using falsetto and a little twang.

http://www.box.net/shared/9qitl8yyxk

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That's a cool video! That guy is amazing. I think the main thing in recording rock voice is the compressor. The compressor "evens" out the volume so that your voice can compete with the rest of the rock band. You can scream loud parts without overloading everything, and you can sing softer parts of the song without getting lost in the mix. They definitely have compression on Brian Johnson's mic.

A lot of people will boost the overall highs on the voice which adds presence. In my case I'm just using a compressor and my EQ is flat (except for rolling off the very lows below 125hz). The general rule of thumb in mixing rock is that only the kick drum and bass guitar are allowed below a certain frequency. Everything else gets the lows rolled off. There's really nothing on the vocal track below 125 anyway, it is a precaution in case the mic picked up a low rumble.. like my air conditioning kicked on or my kids were jumping on the kitchen floor, or something like that. We don't want that stuff to wind up in the mix.

I'm recording using condensor mic and a reflexion filter which allows me to record the voice without the added color of the room. The filter is like a vocal booth but less costly (and not so big). So my setup is: Condenser Mic Sure KSM27 (using a Reflexion filter) and a Compressor. A little reverb is added of course. That's how I recorded this track:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8878823

you're right about that. compression makes a huge difference.

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@Jens:

I find that hard to believe. You've built a huge voice. :P Curbing has been my feckin' nemesis from day one. I finally figured out how to sing everything from the "same" place...meaning I will Curb, OD and Edge through the hold(or at least through a "similar feeling" compressed state.)

One other video that really got me thinking "outside the box" was a YT vid you posted on Jorn Lande:

(Especially starting at :19) You can really hear how much sub-glottic pressure he uses. I mean, regardless of mode, he compresses and NEVER lets up. Was a real light bulb moment for me.

@Geno:

thanks for your input...your demos are absolutely amazing! Just listened to 'The Wall.' Wow.

@Bob:

I think you captured Sting's timbre way better than me...but to my ears, Sting "mostly" sings in a Curbed/Mixed voice. Just leans to the lighter side of it.

One other thing to think about is...these days I'm not doing any recording...everything I practice is meant to be performed LIVE. Which, for me, means higher volume AND intensity.

Rock on my brothers(and sisters too of course :) )

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@Bob:

I think you captured Sting's timbre way better than me...but to my ears, Sting "mostly" sings in a Curbed/Mixed voice. Just leans to the lighter side of it.

One other thing to think about is...these days I'm not doing any recording...everything I practice is meant to be performed LIVE. Which, for me, means higher volume AND intensity.

i hear ya buddy. i just played with that spur of the moment to see what developed. i might have added more lean to fatten it up more too. i love george michael's version of this song. i just ordered the karaoke disc...

one day soon i'm gonna splurge for that cvt system.

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It sounded like analog's version was in curbing/mixed voice and Bob's version was in "metal-like-neutral".

In other words, analog's version had a slight cry to it, so that the basis of the sound was with medium volume and a bit more body weight to it and Bob's version was sung with a very light feel to it and lower core volume, but with an added twang (which actually raised the volume a bit). I think that analog is right that the original tune is in curbing but a fairly light style of curbing. Bob, if I remember correctly, your version of Hot blooded was in curbing.

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Good deal Bob! Worst case scenario(with CVT) is you'll continue to expand your vocal knowledge base. Not talking "Yoda Steve" knowledge, but it might help you to better understand some of the other methods you own. You already have an excellent foundation, so no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water(or however that goes.)

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It sounded like analog's version was in curbing/mixed voice and Bob's version was in "metal-like-neutral".

In other words, analog's version had a slight cry to it, so that the basis of the sound was with medium volume and a bit more body weight to it and Bob's version was sung with a very light feel to it and lower core volume, but with an added twang (which actually raised the volume a bit). I think that analog is right that the original tune is in curbing but a fairly light style of curbing. Bob, if I remember correctly, your version of Hot blooded was in curbing.

no, my version of "hot blooded" was in "cult".... as in diffi-cult!! lol!!! man, i gotta get that cvt, just gotta get the cash.

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