"Have You Ever Seen the Rain?" by CCR, a collab

[MDEW]

Coming to Rons defence..(although not needed) "Have you ever seen the Rain" does not have a harmony line to sing. At least not in the version by CCR. and if he had added a harmony line he would have been blasted because it sounds different from CCR.

[ronws]

Coming to Rons defence..(although not needed) "Have you ever seen the Rain" does not have a harmony line to sing. At least not in the version by CCR. and if he had added a harmony line he would have been blasted because it sounds different from CCR.

Well, MDEW, that's the whole point. There is not a harmony line in the original. And I keep getting it pointed out to me, even after the discussion was over, by my brother, once again, that I mistated by saying that I was singing harmony. Grind that point into the ground.

I fully suspect that if I had not sang on this, and it was a solo post by Bay, it would either have received only positive reviews or at least less of all this stuff.

I am poison and my contribution has resulted in two negative reviews. One from singingnewbie for me not matching Bay's r&b stylization. And one from Dave, saying that it lacked emotion. And from others, including my own brother that it was not harmony but unison. And from singingnewbie, by means of saying that it didn't quite line up, not all that unison.

So, I should apologize to Bay for dragging him down. And apologize to other members for providing a less than perfect recording. Though, at least, no one, as yet, said I was pitchy. Thank goodness for the absence of some things.

And my line was more like the original, though I sing cleaner than Fogerty. And it is precisely my more traditional line that is causing the problem. So, really, it would not matter if I sang the original line or a harmony line that never existed. The problem is my singing on this, at all.

So, I live and learn.

[Singingnewbie]

Great! If only you could match the harmony wording better and it is the 2nd voice that has to follow the leads wording (eehm ronws ). If both vocals were done at the same time, ok but if you got butchers track first and then added yours maybe you should "study" his wording and follow. Butcher the first scream after chorus was a bit off and weak, ronws you did very good job at the 2nd scream and general backing vocals. Sorry i might be harsh but you know i am nit-picking. All in all very nice!

[Singingnewbie]

I mean step over his words, when his word starts yours start too and the syllables are on top of each other until the word ends, not doing exactly what he does. On some parts i can hear something like time difference between lead and backing vocals.

...

[Singingnewbie]

One from singingnewbie for me not matching Bay's r&b stylization.

...

? :| ?

Sorry for triple post but don't know how to add many quotes in one post, make it one if you can.

[ronws]

And now, I have to sit through the same thing, like the movie "Groundhog's Day"? Instead, we can just talk forever and ever amen about how crappy this was, mainly through my inabilities. Of, course, next, I need someone to say it's kind of unison, rather than harmony, then I need my brother to remind me at least twice.

Yeah, woopie ...

[Singingnewbie]

rowns The point of a review or critique is to make things better for the future. If we all ignore the mistakes or lack of "X" thing and don't criticize them, we are gonna hear, read, see, eat, touch the same thing as people did thousands years ago. Criticism is the way to go from my point of view to make everything better.

There are many types of criticism,

Hey ronws, you suck buddy, quit

i didn't like it

that was great but you could improve on "this" and "that" dude because of "this" or "that" and blabla

i liked it

that was excellent you were great on "this", and your "that" was excellent blabla

I stick with the middle one cause very rarely i hear an error free home recording and yes missing the beat for 0,1s or going half a semitone off the note, or whatever subtle it is - according to ones ability - is something you can improve so if i hear it i will write it.

Peace

[Bay_Harbor_Butcher]

Well, MDEW, that's the whole point. There is not a harmony line in the original. And I keep getting it pointed out to me, even after the discussion was over, by my brother, once again, that I mistated by saying that I was singing harmony. Grind that point into the ground.

I fully suspect that if I had not sang on this, and it was a solo post by Bay, it would either have received only positive reviews or at least less of all this stuff.

I am poison and my contribution has resulted in two negative reviews. One from singingnewbie for me not matching Bay's r&b stylization. And one from Dave, saying that it lacked emotion. And from others, including my own brother that it was not harmony but unison. And from singingnewbie, by means of saying that it didn't quite line up, not all that unison.

So, I should apologize to Bay for dragging him down. And apologize to other members for providing a less than perfect recording. Though, at least, no one, as yet, said I was pitchy. Thank goodness for the absence of some things.

And my line was more like the original, though I sing cleaner than Fogerty. And it is precisely my more traditional line that is causing the problem. So, really, it would not matter if I sang the original line or a harmony line that never existed. The problem is my singing on this, at all.

So, I live and learn.

Don't feel bad Ron. Even if I posted my solo version, David and singingnewbie will have bad things to say about my singing so don't blame yourself.

[wabba_treads]

Don't feel bad Ron. Even if I posted my solo version, David and singingnewbie will have bad things to say about my singing so don't blame yourself.

Ron, there's no need to feel ashamed of anything. You contribute greatly to this forum. You stick up for anyone no matter how "bad" someones performance is. You point out what they could improve, BUT you also point out what you like and when they go hand in hand like that, someone is really going to take heed and improve. Singing is pretty mental when you think about it. If you can't even believe in yourself, how can you possibly improve on what you were being critiqued about? Ron, you restore a persons faith in him/herself and thats pretty much the point of constructive criticism. People are so busy trying to put themselves on a pedestal when they critique that they forget that praise about SOMETHING is also beneficial to the person you're critiquing because it gives them a drive to truly improve. If what they heard is just a bunch of negative things and absolutely no positive aspects about their performance, how the hell are they supposed to have the drive to improve themselves on what you critiqued them on? Critiques like that have no value whatsoever other than to degrade someone and to make them give up.

Singingnewbie actually brought up a good point. The thing is, the audience will have the final say in if they liked what they heard, not some "judge" who's getting paid to criticize you. Having someone with credentials to critique you is obviously beneficial, but the audience is literally the majority and is gonna be the final "judge" because if they like what they heard, you are going to go far. If you guys were to perform this in a live setting, I'm sure the results would have been different than the what's here, because obviously an audience has a variety of likes/dislikes and someone out there will like your performance. Just sitting at home with headphones in your ear listening to this performance is just not the same experience as watching and listening to it happen live in person.

Just my 0.02 :)

[David]

Don't feel bad Ron. Even if I posted my solo version, David and singingnewbie will have bad things to say about my singing so don't blame yourself.

Bay : Only thing I mentioned was that it was lacking emotion and it was more unison then harmony.. I never mentioned your singing was bad, infact I mentioned the exact opposite.. please read posts in full.. If english isn't your first language (which I'm starting to suspect), please ask what I mean, instead of assuming.. thanks Bay.

Ron : as mentioned above I only commented on the lack of emotion and the stylistic aspect of being in unison instead of harmony... some of the issues was recording issues, and not that of your actual performance -- sorta lacking a proper master to the track... You and Bay have proven you guys have the chops, but in comparison to previous material released by you and by Bay, this wasn't the best performance by either of ya.

That's it.. rock on.. keep it live.. and have fun...

[Bay_Harbor_Butcher]

Bay : Only thing I mentioned was that it was lacking emotion and it was more unison then harmony.. I never mentioned your singing was bad, infact I mentioned the exact opposite.. please read posts in full.. If english isn't your first language (which I'm starting to suspect), please ask what I mean, instead of assuming.. thanks Bay.

Ron : as mentioned above I only commented on the lack of emotion and the stylistic aspect of being in unison instead of harmony... some of the issues was recording issues, and not that of your actual performance -- sorta lacking a proper master to the track... You and Bay have proven you guys have the chops, but in comparison to previous material released by you and by Bay, this wasn't the best performance by either of ya.

That's it.. rock on.. keep it live.. and have fun...

Ha. Now I don't understand English. You're proving my theory about you with your every reply.

[David]

You just want a fight Bay... grow up. You don't make sense, so you either don't understand english-- I was giving you the benefit of the doubt...

Anyway, I'm done talking with you.. When you are willing to grow up and take critique to material you post in the critique and review forum, then come talk to me..

I don't have time to deal with children...

[ronws]

Well, I agree with the points of Dave and Singingnewbie. And even if others found problems with this recording, I will leave it be, not improve it, let it be a lesson.

And Dave, I think you misunderstand me. I am poison and that is not self-pity or over-reaction. Just a statement of fact. But I was thinking about this thread today, in the midst of all the hot potatos and crises I have to deal with on a daily basis at my job, which always gives me valuable perspective. If the worst thing that happened in a day is that you found problems with our unison singing, that would be an easy day.

And my continued statements are simply bringing out apologetics from others (I am too tired to define that, it is after 8 pm here and I was up at 4 am to prepare for the onslaught of the day.)

I don't mind critique. It's just the continued ongoing nature of it that took me by surprise. But I have adjusted, because I have moves like Jagger.

And sympathy for the devil.

In Bay's defense, I think he is young. And prone to being reactionary, as I have often been. I do not envision for myself an r&b styling full of melisma and don't follow it as a general rule. But I like what Bay does with songs. And that takes some doing, to make me appreciate more fully a style I don't follow.

So, really, to answer singingnewbie, I didn't try to match the phrasing of Bay because I did not want to. I have also changed the op to say that it featured me, rather than harmony by me. Not completely unison in style though we are starting on the same note, spot-on.

Bay is reacting to you, Dave, because of the comment you made about him posting a number of covers. And to be fair to him, why don't you aim that wit at Jugulator, who does the same thing? That was rhetorical, to an extent, to make a point. And you tell him to grow up. Okay, well, doesn't it also take some patience to let the young come into their own?

For me, personally, this post aside, I do better when I shut up. And once in a while, believe it or not, I do practice the idea of reticence. I am not telling you what to do, just saying, words have effect. I know that every day from my experience as an operations manager where what you say and what you don't say have equal and mighty importance.

Summation, the recording could have been better, mostly on my part, and some slippage in unison was noticable to some. And it doesn't matter how well Bay or I sang, what the audience hears, they hear, each from their own perspective.

peace, love, and understanding

[David]

I don't say it to jug because of two reasons...

1. When Jug started posting vid after vid, we already knew point number 2.

2. Jug isn't looking for critique when he did that. .He was showcasing his material. we all know that.. Same with Felipe etc..

anyway.. not interested in the subject anymore.. :-) cutting into my play time ..

[ronws]

On the subject of showcasing, the title of this section is review and critique. So, I don't think there will be just a review or showcase section.

Jug always asks for critique. But I get it, I turned the tables of analysis in the other direction. Sorry, again.

[David]

yup

[Bay_Harbor_Butcher]

Bay is reacting to you, Dave, because of the comment you made about him posting a number of covers. And to be fair to him, why don't you aim that wit at Jugulator, who does the same thing? That was rhetorical, to an extent, to make a point. And you tell him to grow up. Okay, well, doesn't it also take some patience to let the young come into their own?

He's avoiding what you just addressed to him regarding his issue with me posting cover after cover. Hmmm...

[Bay_Harbor_Butcher]

I don't say it to jug because of two reasons...

1. When Jug started posting vid after vid, we already knew point number 2.

2. Jug isn't looking for critique when he did that. .He was showcasing his material. we all know that.. Same with Felipe etc..

anyway.. not interested in the subject anymore.. :-) cutting into my play time ..

I noticed that you have a problem with people "showcasing" their material. If you think you can do better, why don't you showcase you own.

[Adoney]

Wow, Bay you should probably just be more humble when someone finds your covers distasteful.

I agree with David about the lack of emotion, but I found the singing very impressive, regardless. It's not about whether or not someone 'thinks they can do better'. That's a pompous thing to propose in the first place. If you post a cover on the review/critique section, maybe you should be prepared to take some critique.

[MDEW]

I would welcome critique from any one of you. Nothing wrong with doing a good job and expecting some kind of acknowledgement for it. At the same time on a critique forum you should expect someone to point out that one note that was half a cent off.

Some of you would not dream of posting a song that you did not believe was one hundred percent perfect and others would post the first draft and let chips fall where they may.

If you are making a recording for sale then it may be appropriate to nitpick on different things like starting lines at the same moment, keeping exact meter and vowel modifications between singers, but a collaboration between singers from different backgrounds ( musical and geographical ) just for fun and to see how they may or may not mesh it is not necessary. That is part of the charm of it.

For the critique part, Do opinions matter? I would have loved to hear someone tell Celine Dion that her tone sucks even though her technique and pitch may be flawless. Just once I would have loved to hear someone tell Bob Dylan that he needs vocal lessons or tell Whitney Houston that those embellishments are annoying and that whistle thing gives them a headache. But those are just opinions and it means nothing as long as people still buy their CDs

[Bay_Harbor_Butcher]

Wow, Bay you should probably just be more humble when someone finds your covers distasteful.

I agree with David about the lack of emotion, but I found the singing very impressive, regardless. It's not about whether or not someone 'thinks they can do better'. That's a pompous thing to propose in the first place. If you post a cover on the review/critique section, maybe you should be prepared to take some critique.

I've always welcomed critique. If you checked all my previous posts you would see that I never took criticism in a bad way. Someone even said that I'm off key, pitch was off, etc but they were constructive. The never showed prejudice towards my covers. David on the other hand already showed his aversion to me and my covers when he expressed his repugnance of my successive posts of several covers. That's not a critique by any stretch of the word.

[Bay_Harbor_Butcher]

If you are making a recording for sale then it may be appropriate to nitpick on different things like starting lines at the same moment, keeping exact meter and vowel modifications between singers, but a collaboration between singers from different backgrounds ( musical and geographical ) just for fun and to see how they may or may not mesh it is not necessary. That is part of the charm of it.

I couldn't have said it any better.

[ronws]

Or maybe, I am more creative than I thought. I think I have "invented" weaponized singing. Singing for mass destruction.

A tool of offense, much like the act of a Vogon reading poetry AT you, from Douglas Adams' "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." A form of torture and punishment equal only to a recitation of poetry from Elizabeth Barrett Browning.

Singingnewbie said it best, what counts is what the audience gets from it. And live, I have always had a applause.

And, equally, I usually have stunk with recording and editing, something I freely admit and constantly work at, with varying degrees of success and failure.