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One is referring to a physiological configuration the other is referring to modifying the resonant space.

One is about the larynx, the other is about formant or resonance.

One is bodily tissue, the other is just air and how sound waves move through it.

One is the cause, the other is the effect...

I am over simplifying, but generally speaking ... to keep it simple... when you are "holding thyroid tilt" you are "narrowing the epiglottic funnel".

Lastly, Why this is a "CVT question", I dont know? This question is by no means, unique to CVT.

We have been teaching twang and thyroid tilt at TVS for four years...

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When I was teaching electrical work to "at-risk students" (thugs and thug wannabes) there was a textbook. And it was okay. But nothing beats the learning experience of me sticking a 1/2 inch bender in your hand and directing you as you move how to bend pipe. Once you have physically done it, the text supports it. Like wise, the tutorials and auditory and video examples are supported by and support the book. The first book I read on singing back in 1988 was "How to sing olympically" by Graham Hewitt. It was just a book. How much better or faster would I have progress if it included audio or even audio-visual aids back then (beta was phasing out as vhs became more prominent. Before that, we did handshadows on the cave wall in front of the fire.)

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As for the marketing thingy, Robert gives away a lot of info. A number of other systems have page after page of bragging and name-dropping but you will never get even a slight hint unless you buy the whole system. As opposed to here, where Robert will even make a special tutorial on a concept, such as what falsetto is or is not, and link it in, when he could have kept that proprietary. Which is the better marketing strategy? Giving away stuff is called a "loss leader" in business. Willing to help people with no expectation of renumeration sometimes garners more customers. But I don't think that's Robert's goals. If one of his hints helps and drives a person to order the system, fine. But I think Robert's motivation is that he truly believes in his pedagogy (a good thing) and lives and breathes this craft, every day. And the results of his method are astounding. But he's also not one to lay down and take a beating. That's rock and roll.

As my mom would say, say what you mean, mean what you say. And be able to back up what you say, or don't say it. If you can say something about someone, you can say it to them.

I came to this forum through a Kevin Richards video (rockthestageNYC). And have not regretted it. True, some different styles are represented here and it can be confusing, even to me, to relate one term to the next. But, when all else fails, return to the material in question. Or, given a chance, take the internet lesson, or even a phone consult, and get clarification in real time with someone listening to what you are doing.

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So in other words the cry is simply the means to an end?(end meaning twang effect) the reason why i'm asking is because i'm not exactly sure how to effectively "curb." since it's half metallic, does that mean use neccessary twang*instead of distinct twang) at a lower volume so it sounds like a quieter edge? Olem, my problem is that i lack awareness of what curbing is, how to know when i'm producing it beyond a doubt, and how it's different from the full metallic modes. and thank you for your input Robert, you helped shed some light although i still don't fully understand. i'm not suggesting that CVT is the only pedagogy that incorporates tilting but rather hoping to get a more specific answer to my question since i'm using the CVT book. i have no doubt that TVS is one of the best pedagogies as i have bought the four pillars and agree with it, and no disrespect, but i have to admit that paying 200 for a little book that leaves everything i want to know in ambiguity stings a little bit. Martin could you elaborate on curbing and the tilt please?

If you've already taken classical lessons (Bel Canto) then I'm sure you were taught to modify your vowels up in the "passagio" area (around E4 to Ab4) before going into your head (CVT=Neutral). What Bel Canto defines what we should do in "passagio" is Cubing. If you have the CVT book, you should have the audio samples which you can listen to that will help. It is kind of a "yawning" sensation where the brightness of the tone goes a back and gets "dampened" as opposed to Overdrive where the brightness goes forward out of your mouth in a "shouting" manner. In this "passagio" range there are certain vowels you Curb in. To me, Curbing and Overdrive feel similar in the larynx - where the TA seems to be fully engaged with the CT muscles to produce thick folds, which in turn produces powerful overtones. With Neutral the TA seems to be "disengaged" so the folds are thinner and the overtones are much less in volume. Twang is used in Neutral to compensate which augments the weaker overtones.

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He answered your question 100% then asked you why you think twang was only a CVT vocal mode.

If anything your asking for someone to correct you here. You could mislead others into thinking twang is a CVT's vocal mode when it is something a lot of teachers teach.

Just a little clarification,

Twang is NOT a vocal mode in CVT!

The vocal modes in CVT are:

-Neutral

-Curbing

-Overdrive

-Edge

:)

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What I think is funny is there is MORE info on this forum than in any one book out there. Seriously, if you research enough(use the search function) I imagine you can find the answer to most vocal questions(I would start by finding all posts by Steven Fraser :) ) Apart from that, you certainly may need the assistance of an instructor to make sure you are doing it(whatever pedagogy you decide on) correctly/keep you on track.

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What I think is funny is there is MORE info on this forum than in any one book out there. Seriously, if you research enough(use the search function) I imagine you can find the answer to most vocal questions(I would start by finding all posts by Steven Fraser :) ) Apart from that, you certainly may need the assistance of an instructor to make sure you are doing it(whatever pedagogy you decide on) correctly/keep you on track.

I totally agree... the content and posts and information on this forum is unbelievable! We should all be really proud!! You have my word, it will continue to become better and better... anyone that has ideas about how to integrate cool features on this fluxbb system... I want to hear from you... I want more bells & whistles!! More "cool-factor"!! For example, I would like a PDF converter so people can convert pages and posts into a PDF.

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ebjohnston89@gmail.com:

Aloha. I'm a student of Robert's in Hawai'i, though had to suspend my lessons for a few months in order to finish writing my Ph.D. dissertation. I bought TVS when Robert began offering it with a complimentary lesson, too. I had been hanging around the forum for a bit, following the discussions and trying to learn the terminology. I'd previously taken lessons from Jesse Nemitz at Singing Success. To be honest, had it not been for that free lesson, I probably would not have signed up for lessons from Robert, and it would have been my loss. I saw him to be a very high energy guy here, I took (or rather, mistook) him to be very defensive about his pedagogy and didn't think we would have been a bad fit. It only took that first lesson to convince me that I was completely wrong. All of the negatives I had perceived were simply his passion for the work he does and unfailing belief in his pedagogy. And while I'm (IMHO) a relatively laid back person, I started feeding off of his energy and his no-nonsense approach. I needed to be pushed a little harder, he sensed it and pushed.

My humble suggestion: hold off on the questions until you have a chance to schedule a Skype session with him. Ten minutes of F2F with him will be infinitely more value than a dozen forum exchanges, clear up any misperceptions (I had many), and get you going down the right road with TVS.

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What I think is funny is there is MORE info on this forum than in any one book out there. Seriously, if you research enough(use the search function) I imagine you can find the answer to most vocal questions(I would start by finding all posts by Steven Fraser :) ) Apart from that, you certainly may need the assistance of an instructor to make sure you are doing it(whatever pedagogy you decide on) correctly/keep you on track.

Great point! And we have Robert to thank for that. This is a very active forum and you can get excellent answers - quickly - from a variety of folks "in the know". I appreciate that Robert welcomes anybody into the forum.

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I see that others have seen what I see. That Robert does give boundless information in this forum. The only thing better than that is, in fact, face to face or ear to ear, as it may be, time. As much as we might learn from reading a book or reading this forum, singing is a physical experience. Physical in the act of it, physical in hearing it. It's like learning a foreign language. You won't get all of it until you hear it spoken by a native speaker. Same with singing. Why? Because each sense has a different pathway into the brain. You might read something and be mystified. And then you hear someone do it and say, "Oh! That. That was it."

Something I learned in teaching. Different people learn in different ways. Some are analytical and have to see it written down. Some ar visual and have to see it done and hearing it and reading about it do nothing. And some are auditory. If they hear it once, they've got but books are just so many words. So, I had to deal with different students with different learning styles but they all benefited from actually physically doing something.

And it's okay to make mistakes. I had one student that was having trouble visualizing a short 90 with a kick. So, I told her to take a stick of pipe and a bender and just play with it, make a pretzel out of it. And she did. By the time she was done, she knew what the tool was capable of and had the directions of angles in her head. And finished her assignment, running 60 feet of pipe in a short attic. That is commercial grade production. She was my "rock star."

You just got to jump in and do it, get your hands on it, so to speak.

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Something I learned in teaching. Different people learn in different ways. Some are analytical and have to see it written down. Some ar visual and have to see it done and hearing it and reading about it do nothing. And some are auditory. If they hear it once, they've got but books are just so many words. So, I had to deal with different students with different learning styles but they all benefited from actually physically doing something.

ronws: Well said. There is a corollary to this. Teachers can learn how to teach to students of particular learning styles, and individuals can learn how they themselves learn. When both teacher and student understand how the student learns, wonderful things can happen.

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No i think this baord is really open minded. Just take a look at the others and what is happening when other programs are discussed....

I can't imagine a topic like "please help with TVS" on CVI for exemple or on SingingSuccess that don't turn bad. But that don't bother me at all. If i want to find info on CVI i go to their forum, the same for singing success. And if i want a little on everything i just go here ;-).

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Aaron,

So in regards to distortion( which is what the starter of this thread: ebjohnston89@gmail.com, is talking about) --- if I'm telling you not to buy the "The Four Pillars of Singing" because it doesn't include vocal distortion as actually promissed....then that's slander??

To me that's simply a fact!

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Aaron,

So in regards to distortion( which is what the starter of this thread: ebjohnston89@gmail.com, is talking about) --- if I'm telling you not to buy the "The Four Pillars of Singing" because it doesn't include vocal distortion as actually promissed....then that's slander??

To me that's simply a fact!

ITS NO LONGER A FACT, ANYONE THAT WANTS TO LEARN ABOUT TVS DISTORTION TECHNIQUES, CONTACT ME, I WILL SHARE WITH YOU A 20 MINUTE TUTORIAL VIDEO ON WELL PRACTICED DISTORTION TECHNIQUES THAT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED BY MYSELF AND MY CERTIFIED INSTRUCTORS IN ITALY... IT WILL BE IN PILLAR 2.0, BUT FOR ANYONE THAT READS THIS, I WILL MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO YOU WITH AN INTERNET LESSON IMMEDIATELY. JUST CONTACT ME AT ROBERT@THEVOCALISTSTUDIO.COM .

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Robert,

Yes, let everybody speak freely. The only time you should "moderate" is, if someone is using faul language or attacking people(going for the man and NOT the ball) - or advertising their product.

That's it. Then this forum would be an open-minded and non-biased place to be at. :)

Martin, why is it that this boils down to you... ? Let me make a few things very clear and then lets end this, because I have a lot to do and Im sure you do to:

1). This IS my forum dude. Yes, its "TMV" and not "TVS" and yes, I have invited all to join and participate. But "TMV" is my company... I run two companies, TMV and TVS. At the end of the day, this is my forum and Im running the operations. To that point, Im not going to let people rip on my product or anyone's product any more.

2). "Constructive criticism" is:

# Criticism performed with a compassionate attitude towards the person qualified for criticism

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/constructive_criticism

# A form of feedback where the reader offers suggestions on ways to improve the story - polite and helpful are the keywords here.

www.ralst.com/Definitions.html

3). The new rule I posted is not even close to censorship? It states:

If you post any comment that is a critique of another vocal training "system", book, DVD or school... please post something of merit in regards to that training system, book, DVD or school. Maintain objective and balanced commentary.

Now, does that sound like censorship? Its not even a "hard fast" policy.., its just a request. Are you not capable of doing this? Whats the issue?

We are done... end of discussion... Lets move on now... wishing you the best for the holidays.

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Interesting. Perhaps because I am an unabashed capitalist and free man, I never thought of this site and forum as anything other than privately owned. Mgmt has the right to make the rules and to expect a certain decorum of behavior. In other words, I was raised to not crap on the floor of someone else's house.

But the rules seem clear to me. If something is unclear in a TVS book or method, every single time, without exception, Robert has offered a phone or internet (usually, skype) consultation or lesson and, as it turns out, the people that have had the question have paid the price that includes that one-on-one with the author. You just can't get your lettuce any fresher than that.

In understand that we have compare to what we have known before, so I might expect an opera singer or even a theater singer to approach from the perspective of bel canto. But, eventually, you have to learn the definitions of the system you are learning. Nor is this forum closed to discussing other systems. But, in this thread, first blood was drawn in saying that the TVS material was insufficient, in spite of invitations to speak directly to the author. That's criticizing a system, which is not right. Nor am I fully without blame. Such as my comments in another thread about a performance by a vocal coach from another system. His system still offers many helpful things and it was wrong of me to be so judgemental.

I think it's funny to say that the author of TVS doesn't do distortion when I have heard him, myself, in one of his weekend intensives working with a another student (I think it's on your channel on youtube or is embedded from there.) I think it was a twangy rattle, if I am not mistaken, but there it was. Then again, this thread and the other one like it are asking for comparison between CVT and TVS and it's, what's the word ... ill-advised to expect that the author of TVS would denigrate his own system. The whole point is to offer something that others don't. And who knows, to maybe be better, at least for some students seeking particular things.

When I say that the author doesn't have to lay down and take a beating, yet others get riled up and get hurt feelings when he defends himself, how is it fair to not let him defend himself when you (hypothetical) just dissed the system? As mom would say, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I guess some people just like drama.

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Thanks Ron... on the issue of Distortion with TVS, the training of it and me personally... LOL! I know how to distort! I teach people how to distort... and "Pillars" now offers a module on Distortion as previously stated... in 2011, we will consider releasing an entirely separate product on distortion once we further refine the pedagogy around it.

... But anyone who would like to learn about two primary TVS distortion techniques, contact me,,,, we'll get to work on it.

My only issue is that its not proper in my opinion to dive into distortion training until you can first phonate a clean and healthier sound as great distortion is an effect... its an "overlay" to an already existing clean sound. When students of singing come to me that cant bridge, can modulate to a twangy vocal mode, cant modify vowels, cant do this and cant do that.. but want to short cut and go right to the distortion... they are very confused on what it takes to properly train distortion. You cant take a short-cut to learning how to distort. You have to train yourself to fundamentally learn how to sing first!

The distortion techniques are being developed by myself and my team out of Italy, Alessandro del Vecchio and Gabriele Gozzi... this is Gabriele Gozzi... my TVS CI in training.

Here is Gab, I gave him a lesson just this morning coincidentally:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/video/video.php?v=1384609509055

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  • 3 months later...

I totally agree, Robert. Distortion is a layered effect that should come after the fundamentals of singing are accomplished. And even then, improper technique or rushing can cause problems, as I found out, the hard way.

hey ron.....there he is...where were you?

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