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Hi!

A little background: I have trained my vocals with a college instructor for roughly four years, I haven't had a lesson in nearly two. The reason I say this is because I had posted on Yahoo forums only to be lectured without constructive criticism by someone who had the information I was asking about only because I was hoping someone would provide it free of charge. I am a student. I am also broke. Whenever I can afford to, I will reinvest in a vocal coach because I am aware that not having one has lead me to developing bad habits.  She pretty much told me I shouldn't sing at all without years of proper training; in other words, said my vocals sucked!

My techniques are full of bad habits. I need help analyzing them and figuring out what I can do to release the tension and build a stronger, healthier voice--that much is certain--but I am determined to learn the techniques used by a specific singer.

Anyways, here is a song of mine for example.
 



I did every part by myself, I also produced it with Cubase LE 5 and Ozone, but I am a crap producer and I don't have great equipment. The vocals are also completely random and nonsensical because I am more concerned about the tone of my voice at the moment and would like to address that before I do any serious song writing.. This song was really just an effort to get myself out there in the first place, but I'm apprehensive to advertise myself because of the quality of my voice.

Here are a few more random examples.
 

Clip C isn't my backing track...just to clarify.  It's only for an example.

I'm bothered by this in a few ways. For one thing, there's no smoothness in my tone.  For another, I'm shouting at times.

I am actively aware of my diaphragm and attempting to further naturalize my reaction to breath down into it, but the control seems to be an issue...I've heard that I need more breath while singing higher, but I can't separate myself from pushing the notes and it actually seems like I'm using less air...I feel like the only thing that sounds good most of the time is my distorted belts..

It should probably be worth mentioning that I had a background in metal too.  I was unable to learn my screaming method under a teach...so I think I may be fry screaming and I've heard that was bad as well.  Could that be relative to my incorrect executions of belted distortion?

I am very fond of the distorted belt, one used by my favorite singer, Jonny Craig.
This song here is amazing, it's my goal to be able to sing this correctly without strain in my own unique voice.


But, I would be content with starting off this song correctly without strain to build up to more challenging techniques.



I am under no disillusion that I can make my voice sound like his. However, I want to be a better singer, and I am determined to reach this magnitude of greatness. The only problem is that I'm broke, although I have a job, and live in a very plain area in Missouri that harbors very few musicians or coaches who can help me achieve these goals. I live about an hour away from St. Louis. If I knew of a coach there that could help me out, that might be a decent start. I could probably even take some exercises and run with those.

Most of my equipment can run my voice back into my headphones, which gives me a good representation of my overall tone, which helps me decipher where I can improve...this has actually helped me improve dramatically in the past week or so.

Thank you in advanced for your services! 
I'm looking forward to hearing your critiques.

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Welcome Gallant, it is great to have you here!

A few things before we begin your review.

1. Please embed the youtube videos you want to show. You do this by pasting the link into "insert link and video images", at the "embed videos & images" drop down menu in the bottom right. We don't want to toss people out of the site, we want to keep them here and embedded videos are more fun anyways.

2. I tried to listen to your file, but it is prompting a download... that doesn't work. Please embed a soundcloud widget or provide a NONE download box.net link.. or anything that isn't a download... basically a streaming solution.

Then I and others will give you feedback.

:z-coffee:

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I could hear them. Man, it looks like you've been in a fight. I hope the other guy looks worse.

It sounded like you were singing okay, Are you wanting to sing softer? You said you were singing metal, which would explain the loud notes you have now.

 

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Lol.  Nah.  That is the remains of my zombie makeup from a Halloween party.

I'm not really trying to write metal, although, I use a lot of those qualities.

I am looking for control.  I am also wanting to gain an R&B type of...formant, I guess you would say?  For example, if you listen to Jonny sing in the songs referenced above, he uses a very intense belt but then smooths his voice into these nice R&B tones.  The man's got soul.  I feel like I have one dynamic and my voice starts to lose quality when I'm attempting to utilize something like curbing or even neutral modes.  My distorted belts are also unhealthy sounding to my ear.  They leave a tension in my throat and then my compression is uncontrollable.  Once I engage the edging or distorting elements of my voice, I'm stuck in that dynamic, and my voice craps out whenever trying to curb or sing neutral.  I can't make heads or tails on whether I'm doing one technique wrong that affects my whole voice, or if I'm doing everything wrong.  I'm beginning to question if I'm even doing my screams wrong!

I also feel as though my singing is less sincere because I'm conscious that my techniques may not be that well developed and I don't feel like I'm really utilizing the best of my voice.  I feel icky when I hear myself sing in certain areas, but then again, I can kind of hear how it could be good if I did it right.

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sincerity is an illusion. What will give you more control is let your voice resonate so that you are more easily able to learn to manage breath. From your description, and it does sound like it, anything about E4 or D4 sounds like a shout to you, like going full blast, pedal to the floor? Which, yes, is okay or thrash metal or something hard-driven and loud all the time.

You are wanting finesse. Not much I can tell you through words. I think if you can learn to manage the breath and take half a load of the folds, they will eventually become a little more flexible. It may take a while.

I am not a teacher of singing but I have been singing a while.

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What would a thought process for that be? I was told to widen the space between my wisdom teeth, hard pallet,  and tongue.  Like keeping an imaginary light bulb in your mouth.  I try to visualize that as an attempt to make better resonance occur.  The back of my mouth and throat feel strained as I'm becoming more aware of the sensations left by my overall technique.

 

Also, do you know anything about healthy scream techniques?  I've thought that a different approach to that would change my edge and distortion techniques. 

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Sorry for the wait...

The sound color of your voice gives me the impression that you have a good, strong instrument with a lot of potential. But you are correct, you need training.

Look, you can't just shout at singing forever and expect to really get better in any meaningful way. Shouting at notes can get some people down the road to some extent, but eventually you will max out what you can do with the issues that are not being addressed.

This kind of singing has probably had the benefit of growing your belt capabilities, which is great, but again,... you are not harnessing this strength, nor are you aware what so ever of your vowels, the mass of your phonation and I hear constriction in these sounds as well, which will only grow worse in time.

You need to get out of the body and really start thinking about your voices as an instrument that produces acoustic colors, that amplifies formants, that "rings' when you modify in and out of different singing vowels. And in order to build your sensitivities and skills in the acoustics of singing, you will have to start by lowering the "acoustic mass"... too much pushy and shouting. You are "slapping the water", the physics of sound in the voice for singing are not going to respond the way you want them to no matter how hard you slap it... it will push back on you, like slapping water. You need balance and get out of the physiology and into the acoustics of singing.

Lead with the acoustics and the physiology will follow.

I offer a vocal training program titled, "The Four Pillars of Singing" that will provide for you everything you need to really get put on a path that is not wasting your time, but moving forward with quick results. I really think, after listening to you, that it would gel really well for you.

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What would a thought process for that be? I was told to widen the space between my wisdom teeth, hard pallet,  and tongue.  Like keeping an imaginary light bulb in your mouth.  I try to visualize that as an attempt to make better resonance occur.  The back of my mouth and throat feel strained as I'm becoming more aware of the sensations left by my overall technique.

 

Also, do you know anything about healthy scream techniques?  I've thought that a different approach to that would change my edge and distortion techniques.

     I am assuming this is a responce to Ronws suggestion of letting the notes resonate. Sing a note lets say G3 at a moderate volume..... without worrying about what vowel you are singing change the timbre of the sound....... you can make that note brassy and bright, deep and bright, Thin, thick.......... play with it ............ what you are doing is changing the size and shape of the resonance chamber (vocal tract) notice what changes take place to the sound and feel. Don't just sing it the way you always do, what someone else told you to do to get resonance ........... Resonance occurs when the shape of the vocal tract reacts with the note being sung........ The adjustment is not the same for everyone and holding the top and back fully open may miss the sweet spot. Play with it so you can learn how to control your own voice.

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Robert, thank you for getting back to me.  I was not bothered by the wait, it seems I've been in good hands through and through.

I have put a bit of thought into investing in your program, but I must ask, what sets it apart from CVT?  I bought that program a while ago and it helped me learn a lot, but it didn't seem to help me address what you are referring to when you speak about acoustics.  Which, I've never really thought about my voice outside of the physiological, so thank you for broadening my perspective of that.  What's difficult for me to comprehend of acoustic singing is the application since I've never really been aware of what that means and how it applies to me.. 

MDEW just described changing the size of the vocal tract, which is what I would assume to be similar if not exactly what you are speaking about.  I have a ways before I can afford your program at this time, so where do I start aside from pure experimentation?  After you put it into perspective, it caused me to question whether I am anything more than just acquainted with my voice/voices and that I don't really know it/them all too well.  It seems that all I know about phonation is vowel usage, which appears to be improper at that. 

Also, do you really think I could make a dramatic improvement in a some-what short amount of time?  This woman that I mentioned in my original post told me that I would have to spend like a decade in making my voice what I wanted it to be, then went on to say that all training I have done already was a complete waste.  This is frustrating to me and makes me feel that I cannot achieve the level of skill I have in mind for myself.

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Gallant, I'll try to make this clear and fair...

I bought that program a while ago and it helped me learn a lot, but it didn't seem to help me address what you are referring to when you speak about acoustics.

Why is this the case? Is this because you didn't understand that book well enough to get the information out of it? It is a bit complicated, especially for beginners. Because vowels and acoustics is a HUGE part of that book and method and if you seem to have missed the main point of their vocal modes, then we have to ask why? Did you not read it? Maybe it is because nobody demonstrated their acoustic modes for you on video? Perhaps its because nobody explained their vocal modes to you in a video lecture? Or perhaps its because all you got was a book, with no content (scales/workouts) to practice?... and no guidance on how to train with the practice content, that wasn't there for you? 

 I've never really been aware of what that means and how it applies to me.. 

That is unfortunate because you really need to understand the acoustics of singing to really make big gains. If you don't get that, or it is not explained properly to you, and/or you are not facilitated with video content that helps you to understand that, then... ya, it is going to be very abstract and most people get lost on it.

Also, do you really think I could make a dramatic improvement in a some-what short amount of time?  

YES!  IF... you have training content and instructions on how to practice the concepts you learn in a book and videos (if they are provided). DEFINITELY... you would with my program, because I give you training content, and guidance with training routines that include details in the back of the book, a video demonstration by me and more... to learn HOW TO TRAIN. Again, if you are not training the ideas your reading about, your not going to get anywhere. Why would reading an idea make you stronger and coordinated for singing? It might make you understand some things better, but it isn't going to do the heavy lifting for you.

 This woman that I mentioned in my original post told me that I would have to spend like a decade in making my voice what I wanted it to be, then went on to say that all training I have done already was a complete waste. 

Ten years?  That is complete bullshit, for most people. NO WAY. Maybe it takes her students ten years to get progress, but not good coaches that have a method and know what they are doing and can actually demonstrate themselves. Not my students. People who train "The Four Pillars of Singing", on average experience huge gains in 2 - 12 weeks, depending on the individual. Why is that?  Because... I provide you with training content and teach you how to train and practice the techniques in the program. I make you run around the track, and get to work... are you getting it?  Are you getting it? YOU HAVE TO PRACTICE!!  Did the CVT book teach you how to practice?  Did it provide for you any workout scales, recorded piano scales to train with? Then why would you expect anything to happen for you? 

Putting it briefly:

1. The CVT Vocal Modes, is very similar to the TVS Acoustic Modes. In fact, that is the one cool thing that CVT does that I admire, so I put the idea in my program as well!  It has some TVS changes to it, but on a real basic level, it is the same idea. And the way I did it is, I removed the complexities of their vocal modes and made the understanding of vowels and resonation and sound color (which is what that is about), easy to understand. I think their vocal modes are unnecessarily too complicated. So, the main points in CVT are inside TVS too, just easier to grasp.

2. TVS offers training content; scales, solo piano workouts, and training routines tell you what to do... CVT does not.

3. I demonstrate my workouts, CVT does not, because they don't have any workouts to demonstrate in the first place.

4. I offer you over 135 lecture videos explaining everything I know about vocal technique, singing and the TVS Methodology. Did the CVT book offer you any videos that explained their concepts. Hmm... ok.

5. They offer a book, its pretty and great. I do offer a book as well.

6. With CVT, you read a book, right?  Then what do you do...?  Hmm?   With "The Four Pillars of Singing", you will get the most comprehensive vocal training program and course in the world. "4Pillars" is an online course. You take in all these videos and workout content Im referring to and on top of that... you take over 135 individual lessons on every concept. Each lesson has a quiz to test your knowledge of the topic of discussion. Did CVT offer you any quizzes or tests to measure your progress? No, the sold you a book... and walk  away. 

7. Did CVT take the time on a Sunday afternoon to write huge posts to try to help you, guide you in the right direction, give you feedback on your singing and generally give you a GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE EXPERIENCE, before you bought their book? Did they do that after you bought their book?  Hmm...?  WHO DID DO THAT FOR YOU?  :39:

I understand why your frustrated and fed up... I really do.  There are a lot of guys out there like you.. but have faith in me... my program is probably currently the best program for people that want to train in the industry right now... and I give a shit... can you tell? Can you tell that I care about your success? 

READ THESE REVIEWS:

http://www.thefourpillarsofsinging.com/reviews/

These are real customers... and most of them didn't have half the experience that you do already.

CLICK THIS LINK AND GO TO THE HOME PAGE AND VIEW THE ENTIRE VIDEO AND PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE VIDEO IS TELLING YOU!

http://www.thefourpillarsofsinging.com 

Then click HERE to read more details about the offer.

http://bit.ly/TheFourPillarsofSingingVocalTraining

 

Then, send me a Private Email and Ill give you a special deal to help you get in... BTW... MDEW has the program as do a lot of guys on here... 

R

 

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Robert, thank you!  That was definitely a sale.  Yes, it is absolutely because the most that I got from their program was demonstrations, but no comprehensive exercises and perhaps that's why it never stuck.  I am a kinetic learner, so having exercises would absolutely change the game!  

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When it comes to singing... specifically the training and practice of singing to get better... we are ALL kinetic learners. How could you not be? How can anyone that is not completely madd or delusional, think they are going to sing great without practicing? Singing is an athletic endeavor, it requires that you strengthen and coordinate the body, tune the hear, etc... Muscle Memory , Motor Skills... You HAVE to workout and sing!

... and I harp on this all the time in here... and I preface this by saying, I have learned good ideas from my colleagues at CVT and have definitely been inspired by them.... and others, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how you can offer a voice technique/method service and product and not have any vocalize? No workouts? I just don't get that... But ya, there are a lot of differences, but that is probably the #1 issue.

BTW... Im not trying to "sell" you... I am being your "trusted advisor" that is trying to make sure that your needs can be met... some of them you are aware of, many others you are not aware of. What may appear to be ONLY an effort to close a sell, really isn't. Sure, Id love to have you as a client and student of the program, but all this energy and effort with you today is not about making a "sell". It is about genuinely trying to help you and guide you to get you what you need.

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Thank you.  I didn't get the feeling you were trying to be a typical salesman.  Maybe I should have worded it differently.  You've peaked my interest.  I have taken the time to send you a private message as requested.

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Robert, thank you for getting back to me.  I was not bothered by the wait, it seems I've been in good hands through and through.

I have put a bit of thought into investing in your program, but I must ask, what sets it apart from CVT?  I bought that program a while ago and it helped me learn a lot, but it didn't seem to help me address what you are referring to when you speak about acoustics.  Which, I've never really thought about my voice outside of the physiological, so thank you for broadening my perspective of that.  What's difficult for me to comprehend of acoustic singing is the application since I've never really been aware of what that means and how it applies to me.. 

MDEW just described changing the size of the vocal tract, which is what I would assume to be similar if not exactly what you are speaking about.  I have a ways before I can afford your program at this time, so where do I start aside from pure experimentation?  After you put it into perspective, it caused me to question whether I am anything more than just acquainted with my voice/voices and that I don't really know it/them all too well.  It seems that all I know about phonation is vowel usage, which appears to be improper at that. 

Also, do you really think I could make a dramatic improvement in a some-what short amount of time?  This woman that I mentioned in my original post told me that I would have to spend like a decade in making my voice what I wanted it to be, then went on to say that all training I have done already was a complete waste.  This is frustrating to me and makes me feel that I cannot achieve the level of skill I have in mind for myself.

    I do not think that any training you have done is a waste. Any training is going to build some form of coordination and build strengths. One of the big differences in Roberts program is that he walks you through coordinations in what he calls work flows. It makes a big difference when some one guides you to a proper coordination for an exercise .......... And in Roberts program it is really meant as an exercise NOT just a vocalise.. 

   Roberts passion for training singers and their progress is also an inspiration. It makes a difference when some one seems to be genuinely interested in your progress.

   CVT is good product also ........ I don't think that it explains the different coordinations for their Modes too well ............. But after you train with Roberts program if you revisit CVT it will make a lot more sense and be a better resource for you.

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It is true... the CVT book and the TVS content and ideas have always been compatible actually. They go well together. Especially now that TVS is offering the Acoustic Modes, which is basically a lightened, more practical version of the CVT vocal modes.

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I agree with Robert about the time thing. Years or even months is not the thing. Proper training from that start, that will always accelerate learning and provide the proper learning. And I can truly say, having been in this forum over 5 years, there is no lack of explanation of elucidation of Robert's concepts, especially in his program. And yes, a good thing about his program, something that keeps him working all the time, is to imagine every way to explain something. And then find yet another way. That is cool.

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Awesome, that is really helpful Martin. 

You already own the book. Training with TVS and The Four Pillars of Singing is REALLY EASY!

Open up your copy of "The Four Pillars of Singing" and do the following:

- Review the Acoustic Modes to gain an additional perspective on how to understand the resonance characteristics and sound colors of the same vowels. CVT and TVS organize the vowels in the same way. In fact Martin, actually worked with me on the TVS Acoustic Modes. I believe the TVS presentation on vowels will be more basic and clear to you.

- Choose one of the 64 vocal workouts that are made available to you, from the intermediate module and begin to work the onsets + vowels in these workouts. 

- Turn to the training routines in back of the book where you will find the notation of the workouts, tips for how to do the workout, onsets and vowel tables that has been created for each workout. (see video below).

- You may also want to review my personal demonstration of the workouts and train with the guide files before you move onto the solo piano content to train. 

- Take the course work with quizzes to further understand your lessons and enjoy the mobile interface for your convenience. This will make your training and educational experience more complete and convenient. 

- If you have any questions about your training of TVS or how to practice CVT ideas on the TVS content, feel free to contact me personally and Ill be available to help you, that is if Cathrine Sadolin is too busy to answer your personal emails or doesn't provide an open forum for you and Martin to discuss my product because she has nothing to gain from it.

 

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Nice presentation Rob.

@Gallant, as Robert said, CVT and TVS can work perfectly fine together.

To get another view on onsets which is a big part of TVS.

I can help you, if there's something you don't quite understand. ;)

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Your so helpful today Martin, thanks for you considerations.

@GallantAxis

Here is a video I recently published on the TVS Onsets. I have seen the "onset" presentation in the CVT book and honestly, in my opinion, it is weak and does not do the topic and importance of onsets justice. They are not "strong" on teaching onsets. One of the lost points on onsets in other books and programs seems to be that an onset is something that only exists and is only worthy of noting in regards to singing. This is unfortunate, because if explored more closely, onsets have the potential to be EXTREMELY powerful training techniques for building strength and coordination. This is precisely what we have done in "The Four Pillars of Singing".

At TVS onsets have been elevated to a higher level and their training potential has been explored, discovered and presented in great detail. We have developed 8 specialized onsets that are used to isolate the musculature and coordinate the voice in training in very specific ways. Four of the onsets are "coordination and tuning" onsets and four are "resistance training" onsets that are for building belt strength and endurance.

Each onset is presented with its own individual lesson, video, table that points out what muscles it trains and what problems it fixes for singers. Each onset lesson has a quiz as well. There is no training program that covers onsets with the same amount of importance or detail then TVS. Attached is a screen shot from the onset module of the new course work system....

Voila_Capture_2015-10-22_08-24-13_AM.thu

And By The Way... the new training system has a module called, "Integrated Training Routines" where you are provided with training content and demonstrations of me showing you how to put it all together and practice and train. The Integrated Training Routines are designed to cut to the chase, to bring it all together and make the training really easy to understand. You just watch a video and sing along with with me, or bust out and try it yourself on the solo piano recordings. If you want to just keep it really simple, just go straight to the "Integrated Training Routines" module.

 

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Wow guys.  I'm sorry I haven't been very present, been building a toy truck with a cannon for a project!  >:D

 

Lots of very helpful advice here.  Thank you for taking the time to elaborate on so much information.  Been trying to play with my resonant spaces and following the advice left here.  So far, I've been able to run with it a little.   I'm quite impressed by the community on these forums.  Ecstatic to finally get a hold of the material.

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