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Belting vs Bridging? examples?

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JonJon

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Ok, maybe a dumb question.  The whole bridging/passaggio/belting thing.

It gets confusing because we read that the male passaggio is typically starting somewhere around d4-f4. Ok, fair enough. Yet then we read that so and so likes to "belt"a b4 or c5.

So if he can "belt" a b4 then how is his passaggio down somewhere around d4-f4?

As a person becomes more trained does this all become a matter of semantics and/or shades of gray? for instance that same singer could probably hit a b4 in chest, or "mixed", or pure head voice, correct? And nevermind those 3 pictureword terms, he could probably hit NUMEROUS different shadings and versions of that same b4...correct?

 

I think its just the term "bridging" that throws me. The term itself implies some sort of "digital" either/or thing when its really not that way. The term "bridge" make you think someone has done a trick or something lol.

But if a guy sings a phrase from chest voice up to, say, a4-b4...its not going to stand out like "omg, he bridged!"...correct? Obviously a trained singer isnt going to all of a sudden hit one specific note and his while vocal character change

 

So the term "bridging"...does it really almost apply more to sirens that to singing actual phrases?

 

Any good examples out there of guys singing phrases where they obviously bridged within the phrase?

Obviously there are plenty of examples where guys belt B4-c5ish stuff in pure chest.

Its like there are SO many examples of belts around b4 that it makes it hard to understand the passaggio being said to be around d4-f4ish

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The bridging thing is more about people who CANNOT connect the folds between D4 and A4 than those who can. There is a shift of resonance and a stability of the larynx that must be in place. If you do not have this trouble you are one of the lucky ones.

  I am not. When singing normally, I hit a hard wall at F#4. Unless I actively do something I cannot go beyond that. The bridge basically is a clue to us to START doing that something, whether it is dampening the larynx or opening the soft palate or switching the resonance to a higher position.

   For someone who DOES NOT have this problem ..... looking for a bridge is just going to make you have that problem.

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27 minutes ago, JonJon said:

So the term "bridging"...does it really almost apply more to sirens that to singing actual phrases?

"Bridges" are spots in the voice where the voice shifts resonance. 

For a man, both tenor or baritone, the first bridge begins at about E flat above middle C. For heavy voices with thicker vocal cords it will be a bit sooner. With a bass it can be as low as B flat below middle C. It is important to mention that regardless of where a man’s bridges are, the sensations brought about by the shifts in resonance and the vocal cord adjustments are the same. The intrinsic thickness of an individual’s vocal cords will determine how low or high his bridges will be.

A tenor or baritone will begin to experience a shift in resonance around D and E flat entering the mix at E natural. The resonance begins to leave the mouth and go up behind the soft palate. This split resonance leaves some in the mouth, and some in the head.

The second bridge is at A and B flat above middle C. This is the bridge that many are not aware of. This is why there are so many tenors who have no high notes and therefore think that they’re baritones. It’s also why we have tenors that cannot get above an A or B flat. At this second bridge the vocal cords make an adjustment (if allowed to), that sends the resonance even higher in the head. 

The third bridge is at E natural above high C. Again the vocal cords adjust to send the voice higher into the super head. The fourth bridge is at B flat above high C and is also a super head voice sometimes referred to as the whistle register.

35 minutes ago, JonJon said:

Obviously there are plenty of examples where guys belt B4-c5ish stuff in pure chest.

its not pure chest..

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I like Daniel's explanation and it is similar to what I learned. Even a light tenor has bridged no later than F4. "Oh, but I belt to G16." Yeah, sure....

You can make a belt like sound but it will not be belt if you are defining belt as full mass fold involvement and fullest meeting surface of the folds. Belt is a sound, not a mechanical process.

I expect two types of people to disagree with that. Those who think they are belting into the 5th and or 6th octave, let alone the 16th octave (not that there is one) and those who do not think they are belting that high, i.e., everyone.

 

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27 minutes ago, ronws said:

You can make a belt like sound but it will not be belt if you are defining belt as full mass fold involvement and fullest meeting surface of the folds.

I wouldnt know how to define "belt" if my life depended on it. Then again, neither does any1 else AFAIC. All of these terms seem extremely subjective. How is one supposed to REALLY know EXACTLY what the folds are doing?? lol

In any case I was thinking of a guy like Bono on a song like "in the NAAAAMMMMMEEEEE of love"  B4...sounds pretty chesty to me

 

Also, doesnt the amount of pressure change things? yeah, if I sing really light then my voice wants to pop over around g4 but with more pressure that same configuration goes higher.....but someone would say that NOT a belt?

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In case it is related to this, Jon, I've just found that what I call "Belting Falsetto" some people call "Falsete Twang". It may give you some idea.

Have a look at the Twang chapter in your book, looks interesting for what you want to do. :)

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@jonjon in the case of the song Pride, "In the Name" would not really be belting, the next phrase on "OF LOVE", that is much closer to it. 

About passaggio point, that's something to be addressed in training and it only makes sense after you figure out intensity levels and apply technique. It's pointless to worry about it without the correct context.

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My point with whole the Mix/falsetto/Belt thing is this......... If you can sing the way Bruce is singing chances are pretty good that you can lighten enough or reconfigure for Elton John. BUT, If you sing like Elton John chances are pretty good that you will either choke or sound like shit trying to sing like Bruce Springstein.

   I grew up with Elton John, Leo Sayer, John Denver......... Even CCR if trying to sing with "Reinforced Falsetto" like Elton John is going to sound like crap. A whole different configuration for Belting/Call Register/In your face melt your face off rock n Roll.

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2 hours ago, JonJon said:

I wouldnt know how to define "belt" if my life depended on it. Then again, neither does any1 else AFAIC. All of these terms seem extremely subjective. How is one supposed to REALLY know EXACTLY what the folds are doing?? lol

In any case I was thinking of a guy like Bono on a song like "in the NAAAAMMMMMEEEEE of love"  B4...sounds pretty chesty to me

 

Also, doesnt the amount of pressure change things? yeah, if I sing really light then my voice wants to pop over around g4 but with more pressure that same configuration goes higher.....but someone would say that NOT a belt?

Amen, twin brother from another mother.

I like what Anthony Frisell said about chest voice. it is volume and resonance, not a specific mechanical function. And I see Springsteen in this thread. A yankee from north New Jersey sounding like a hick on most of his recordings. And sounding like he was "belting." But really, he is singing. "belt" or not. "Born to Run" and "Thunder Road" are my favorites.

And is this guy "belting"?

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

And just to make this very clear, all kinds of passages ARE a do or do not thing, never in-between. The in-between is what we do to produce distortion, its unballance!

no disrespect...but thats too hard to agree with. I can sing a, say, g4 in chest voice....or in head voice. Totally different sounding. Or I can use more pressure and push that same chest voice SOUND up to A4 etc. and hell, I dont even know what im doing. Seems the air pressure, among other things, are going to determine where this or that "passage" sits.

 

Then again, look at what we have to deal with. We have some saying that a passaggio is an EXACT thing.....then we have others saying there is no such thing as a passaggio.

 

This is one subject Im feeling comfortable remaining agnostic about lol

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1 hour ago, JonJon said:

no disrespect...but thats too hard to agree with. I can sing a, say, g4 in chest voice....or in head voice. Totally different sounding. Or I can use more pressure and push that same chest voice SOUND up to A4 etc. and hell, I dont even know what im doing. Seems the air pressure, among other things, are going to determine where this or that "passage" sits.

 

Then again, look at what we have to deal with. We have some saying that a passaggio is an EXACT thing.....then we have others saying there is no such thing as a passaggio.

 

This is one subject Im feeling comfortable remaining agnostic about lol

Do not try to figure it out if you do NOT have the problem.  As with the Falsetto Vs Soft light headvoice, If you do not have the problem there is no point in defining it. But if you do, Then how can you find a coordination that you cannot explain? That is when you need terms.

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IMO one can do MANY things without being able to explain or even understand them

kids on the playground can hit home runs without having a clue about weight shift or extension or release etc. they may DO those things but they are oblivious to terminology.

adults are the ones who think it all has to be intellectualized first...thats usually why we cant learn anything lol

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Let's see what you guys think.  

Belting is a powerful, forceful, (not forcing, forceful) intense, vocal delivery of phrases of (generally) short duration.  Belting is most often a stacatto delivery.

Belting: 2 really good examples..and I did it without bringing in Lou Gramm, who is a consummate belter.:beerbang:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, JonJon said:

IMO one can do MANY things without being able to explain or even understand them

kids on the playground can hit home runs without having a clue about weight shift or extension or release etc. they may DO those things but they are oblivious to terminology.

adults are the ones who think it all has to be intellectualized first...thats usually why we cant learn anything lol

It is not those who can who look for answers. It is the guy who keeps swinging and missing who wants to know why.

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Here's another thing about belting for the folks just getting their feet wet ...you have to have the confidence and understand the sensations that will occur when you belt.  

This is THE phonation where you need to be able to differentiate between tension and pressure being part of this kind of singing vs. actual strain.

If you fear, or simply have reservations or even if you're just hesitant to belt...you'll never go there....you'll never power it.

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8 hours ago, JonJon said:

Elton seemed pretty strong though...we can probably find some good belt examples with him

 

I need to use my "belting energy" to sing this song:

 

 

As for the Bridge, I have no idea about it either. My voice just stops sometimes or cracks, doesn't flip naturally (this would be good I guess).

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Is belting something you will likely find more in rock music with louder band sound levels than others? Granted, there is some belting in other styles but if you have a band with loud and distorted guitars and a guy on an 8-piece pounding like he is trying to make small rocks out of bigger ones, and a bass player who isn't happy until the building foundation is weakened, what do you as the singer have to do to get heard in that?

They have marshals, mesa boogies, a 24" double kick. You have something about as big around as your thumb and not nearly as thick to sound over that.

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On "heaven on their minds" it matters more... But then again, I don´t think its a song breaker even on that context:

https://app.box.com/s/fmobldi2dkjdhlj1j9koh5ul9btvn2w4

The first sample is open and going on the direction of "belting". The second sample is head voice with a strong imposition. I find the second sample much stronger actually, and on the context of a ballanced mix( as in the sound processing on the mixing desk), with audio compression, it will always sound more powerful since the sound spectra is more ballanced,

Of course that on theatre you are expected to open it, but either way would sound good in my opinion. Covering with imposition protects your voice more, and gives you a more "grown up" quality to it. May sound overdone depending on the context of course.

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