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Belting vs Bridging? examples?

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4 minutes ago, Jens said:

Yeah ofc it sounds really good an awesome note, personally i like such notes much more then whistleregister type of vocals. There are guys who can use their falsetto/m2 and get alot of overtones to the voice this will sound somewhat similar to whistlevoice, however it's not although it sounds awesome

 

 

 

 

yeah, im pretty sure he (Lenny Wolf) sort of got lucky on that particular day in the studio

 

whats ofc??   = "of  f$%^&* course"??

 

yeah, the whistle stuff i can take or leave but that cracked overtone sound is killer. I havent listened to a lot of Freddy Curci but it somewhat reminds me of him

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Just now, YouCanSingAnything said:

You just define whistle as being a sound specifically thin and frail. Not everyone defines whistle register this way. It's fine but now I just recognize the issue all along has been, per usual, using two different terms to describe the same sound and arguing over which word is more accurate.

no it's a register that doesnt have power below soprano C. but the register doesnt gain any power below soprano high C so if you hear a ton of power on a G5 it's not whistle specially not if we are talking gillian or heavy metal/rock approach to C5-C6. very very very very very rareley it's whistle

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Just now, YouCanSingAnything said:

You just define whistle as being a sound specifically thin and frail. Not everyone defines whistle register this way. It's fine but now I just recognize the issue all along has been, per usual, using two different terms to describe the same sound and arguing over which word is more accurate.

again, I dont have a dog in any of these "my term vs your term" fights....but earlier you sort of showed that you are defining things and essentially saying that the sound DOESNT MATTER lol. I pretty much lost a lot of interest in what you were saying at that point. You want to define things academically based on this or that mechanism as per this or that study REGARDLESS of the sound. To me thats really ass-backwards. Looks like a duck, quacks, has orange feet and a bill but you say some study says its not a duck lol. Ok.

I dont remember which post but you were saying to someone "you only call it a whistle because it sounds like one" or similar. yeah, exactly. The sound is what matters

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2 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

Maybe. We're talking about the same exact thing. The only difference is that I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we learn that these sounds are actually M3. Very similar to how M1 and M2 are often confused both by singers, listeners, and EGG measurements. I just wouldn't be surprised if the same were true of these types of sounds as well.

Well the thing is your mixxing octaves.

C4-C5 m1 in general if we are looking at power

C5-C6 in general by males is m2 if we are looking for power

C6-C7 is whistle in general if we are looking for power

why? cause thats where the registers are most effecient, will we find stuff in whistle below C6 yes, will you find alot? no, specieally not if we talk rock wich require alot of power. If you hear any sort of whistles in growlmetal or similar it will be above C6 why? cause thats where the register gains power and is effecient.

So saying gillian is doing m2-m3 when in his C5-C6 range wich is very powerfull is just no. secondly it doesnt sound anything like whistle either so thats also going against it and is a big indicator.

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4 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

Nono I'm not mixing the octaves. I just don't think that range is neccisarily an indicator of mechanism. You take a rock singer who transitions seamlessly from D5 to a C#6 "rock belt,"  I'm not sure that anyone can say with certainly where exactly the switch to whistle was.

If the female whistle can engage as low as C5... can the male voice sing in whistle below C5? How much lower? Can the baritone voice sing in whistle lower than the high tenor tenor? If so, does this have any implications on our perceptions of what the male voice is capable of? As far as I know, there are no studies done on the male whistle voice and there are definitely no studies done on whistle voice in rock. I think it's premature to put definitive lines in the sand. We also don't neccisarily have an accurate reading of how "powerful" many of these sounds actually are when being amplified, compressed, and professionally mixed.

If we want to call "whistle" the reedy, creaky door sound quality, then yes what you're saying makes sense. But if we loosen up that definition of whistle voice even just a little bit (as it seems some researchers have) suddenly the lines get super blurry.

The original point was just that, depending on the phrase, a "rock belt" has the capacity to transition seamlessly between falsetto and whistle. A dramatic contralto does not engage their head voice in the same way. I think most of us would agree with that.

Its very simple because they lack the C6-C7. he does not have that range but he stops at C6ish give or take 1 note. C6 is a low note in the whistle register, thats the biggest reason. Sing C5-C6 with power lack the C6+ to C7 then your not in whistle. 

"If we want to call "whistle" the reedy, creaky door sound quality, then yes what you're saying makes sense. But if we loosen up that definition of whistle voice even just a little bit (as it seems some researchers have) suddenly the lines get super blurry."

but it's not whistle is a vocalregister who resides mainly from C6-C7 it has a certain whistlequality and alot of vocalflageolet. The creaky door thing is a voicefunction not a vibratory mechanism.

These examples shown in this thread are clearcut Rockers m2, it does not transition well into whistle it just doesnt. most heavy metalsingers stop around A5-C6 because it does not transition. If it did transition well every powermetalsinger you hear would have the C6-C7 range but they dont, it's very rare because the whistle and rockers scream dont flirt well with each other.

Certain styles allow for transitions into whistle for example certain growlsingers, then they have the C6-C7 range aswell to play around with. 

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1 minute ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

What about a sound like this at 2:17? It's an A5 I think.

 

It's an m2 note. the things im listening for

 

1. it's powerfull

2. its very low for the whistleregister

3. it does not have the whistle timbre

4. doin this in whistle then going back into m2  specially this low in this range would be super super hard

5. Ian Gillan tops out at around D6 meaning he's missing out on basicly the entire whistle octave.

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7 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

What about a sound like this at 2:17? It's an A5 I think.

 

I think I will stick with Marshall Tucker, Blackfoot and maybe 38 Special for some of my more daring high notes. You guys can have the C6's

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12 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

I can see your point! I'll bet you've probably had this debate 100 times by now, huh? ;p.

no :P usually people listen when i demonstrate the both sounds mostly because they wanna learn. It's more about what you want and how to get there, understanding the balance of the registers to get results. 

So going for brett manning whistleexercises when your gonna do a ian gillan scream is a big nono, why?

1. diffrent mechanism

2. diffrent voicefunction

3. no power vs power

 

you set yourself up for fail, you wanna do the ian gillan stuff you:

1. find hooty m2/ falsetto

2. bring that higher with support and energy

3. add twang and powervowels

 

It's the exact oposite you train then when you train for whistle

edit:

1. little to no support, little air

2. do exercises the thins out the voice, creaky door driipy drop sounds, whoop whoop and so forth

3. do it high in your m2 still being thin and quiet, after a while the m2 will be less dominant and you will be able to pass up to the C6-C7 range

 

 

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I feel flageolet tensions starting around G5-A5, whistle voice stops around D6. I don't train much up there, so I'm sure they could be both be improved and the goal posts could be moved, but I got no real dog in that fight. 

My reference for a huge high and powerful note would be like Tom Jones, only I imagine that an octave up. Instead I usually hear either a hoo or a screeching raspy kind of sound. Someone like Geoff Tate could sing in that range cleanly, but it was still a pretty thin sound once he got up there. 

What about for the Bobs of the world?  Is there a 3rd option for people who don't want Ian Gillian scream or Brett Manning wooping and want to do the Tom Jones? Or is the secret sauce to sing it an octave down? :P

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7 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

Eh I still stand by my previous opinions.

I feel like I experience more like what Dan describes as the third passagio. I enter into "superhead" around E5 blends into my upper whistle. It doesn't neccisarily feel effortful or "supported" and it connects easily into what I perceive to be "pure whistle" around the Bb5.

There will be many spots in the range where you will have to coordinate your voice, it does not mean youve switched vocalmechanism. if you can take that Bb5 quality up to F6-G6 then you are likley in whistle. 

my voice tends to wanna switch to whistle on the A5ish if im going light, somedays it's the Bb5 or B5-C6 it depends, however if i go ian gillan style and give the voice gas my m2 goes up to C6-D6 area. 

You can stand your pointy all you want, but saying powerrocksingers transition into whistle at E5 is just wrong even moreso when the notes showed in this thread are not in the whistleregister. Nor by sound or mechanism

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1 minute ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

Lol I never once said rock singers absolutely transition to whistle on E5.

Also there is no "wrong" in this conversation considering there is no evidence to back up either claim. It's just guessing right now and we know how frequently science proves singers wrong about what their voice is doing.

indeed but whatever name science decides to put on this. what ian gillan does and what mariah carey does is not the same, that will never change. they are using two completly diffrent sounds and vocalsetup. 

now you are putting them under the same mechanism and voicefunction and they are not :P it's very simple

thats what bugs me, that and your badly tuned ears ofc ;) cause we run into this time and time again you grouping very very weird sounds together

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4 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

I guess. If two sounds sound similar to me and I can produce them with what I perceive to be the same mechanism, then who's right? We probably won't know for sure until we're both long gone from this earth

Can you actually sound like Mariah Carey? Are you one of those guys on youtube that does the female Disney voice? I can't convincingly imitate a woman. But I wouldn't be surprised if whatever coordination sounded like her would be a different coordination from what she was actually doing given the difference in physiology.

It's bad enough trying to apply my imitation to other men so as to how it relates to their coordination. I would have drastically less faith in my ability to do so with women. In any other scenario if different sized and shaped equipment were to perform the exact same coordination, a different result for each would be expected.

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16 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

I guess. If two sounds sound similar to me and I can produce them with what I perceive to be the same mechanism, then who's right? Voice scientists probably won't know for sure until we're both long gone from this earth. You're not just disagreeing with me, but Dan as well considering my voice falls more in line with his perception of the various bridges. Many others seemed to share a similar experience as well.

I think once someone start throwing around insults is when the conversation should probably end, as there is nothing else to say

Ask daniel if he agree's with me or you and the answer will be very simple :)  But to be honest i want you to learn, cause you stating this stuff this way bugs me like crazy cause it will get crappy training.

Also i dont think you can produce the ian gillan scream or the whistlevoice and thus you can perceive all you want ><

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Tristan just post some sound examples of your voice, it's obvious that nobody is understanding when you describe your perception of whistle.  You say that you have a sensation that prompts you to interpret this a certain way so can you record an example of this so people (like Robert, Daniel, Felipe, etc) can give you their honest opinion?  If not I believe we are just circle talking.  

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9 minutes ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

Dan said it. 6 people liked it. That's the end of it. These are my feelings.

"The third bridge is at E natural above high C. Again the vocal cords adjust to send the voice higher into the super head. The fourth bridge is at B flat above high C and is also a super head voice sometimes referred to as the whistle register."

I'll try to interpret this:

 

Are you describing it more like you believe there is an onset for each bridge like this:

1st bridge F4 or so? (onset of head resonance adjustments?)

2nd bridge A#4 or so? (onset of vocal fold adjustments towards M2?)

3rd bridge E5  or so? (onset of flageolet tensions?)

4th bridge Bb5 or so? (completed flageolet tensions?)

Where as people are interpreting you more like this:

F4 = full head voice or nothin

A#4 = full M2 or nothin

E5 = Full Flageolet tension or nothin

Cause I could see how maybe the 'onset' of a bridge might occur earlier than someone necessarily feels in their voice. Rather than like "bam, I'm totally in whistle now" the onset might begin at an earlier point than the sensation. That's as close as I can come to understanding why there would be such a divide in perceptions here.

But even so, as is generally believed, at least one of those changes can get pulled/pushed around a bit. What if there are M2 pullers as well? Maybe Jens is discussing the Bob of M2? Whistle late or not at all. :4:

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5 hours ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

I don't care about this topic all that much. This is a dumb conversation with no answer. If Dan or Rob or Felipe or Joe down the street says "the voice is only resonance shifts, not mechanisms" then so be it. I don't trust random nameless singers on internet forums to give me scientific advice on vocal mechanism function without ANY evidence to support the idea. None.
.

Ouch!

So, you are here to educate us rather than learn from any of us? 

I liked the line about how 500 years from now, people will view us as rubes, total ignoramuses. Of course, that's 500 years from now and if they have more knowledge then than we have now, then it is an unfair comparison. But that has never stopped intelligent people from looking down on others in order to feel even more superior because just knowing one is smart is not enough, Another person has to be ground into dust. That is the nature of the beast called Man, welcome to the jungle, we've got fun and games ...

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7 hours ago, KillerKu said:

But even so, as is generally believed, at least one of those changes can get pulled/pushed around a bit. What if there are M2 pullers as well? Maybe Jens is discussing the Bob of M2? Whistle late or not at all. :4:

Or perhaps i have a crazy ammount of experience and can show when other people circlejerk and call their falsetto whistle( an other peoples falsetto)... just because you make a thin hooty sound doesnt make it whistle it needs to enter the register...

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@YouCanSingAnything Why don't you finally end this debate by showing us your transition from a powerful metal scream into the C6+ whistle area?

This has nothing to do with personal perception or something like that. If it's the same register, then a smooth transition should be no problem, regardless what name you want to give it.

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Back to the thread topic, these are some bizarrely good samples of both concepts:

This is insanely good.

 

And of course,

 

Everything together... The begining in special "we blind the skys"

 

This is more on the belting side:

 

 

Awesome huge voice, I believe if you have this kind of timbre its nice to go more for belted quality as he does and make good use of it.

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13 hours ago, MDEW said:

I think I will stick with Marshall Tucker, Blackfoot and maybe 38 Special for some of my more daring high notes. You guys can have the C6's

M, I'm right with you. I don't care about the stratosheric stuff too much because I don't care for the songs which use it.

But what happened to our discussion on examples of Belting?:mellow:

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13 minutes ago, VideoHere said:

M, I'm right with you. I don't care about the stratosheric stuff too much because I don't care for the songs which use it.

But what happened to our discussion on examples of Belting?:mellow:

yeah, I thought this Mix/Bridge vs Belt issue was between E4 and C5.   If I could even produce a G5 I would not care about the question to begin with.

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