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K. Mc

Petty jealousy and snideness

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Hello everyone! Well, I have a soprano friend who is auditioning for a role in this musical and I just attended one of the rehearsals last evening and I was really shocked about the catty behavior from some of the other vocalists. Most notably whenever everyone had been chatting with each other after it was over.

Standing beside my friend, two other girls who auditioned told her that: "well, we have heard you sing karaoke, but can you actually sing?" An obvious negative remark. And then they proceeded to say to her: "Why do you sing that way? Do all the extra?" They were referring to her curbing mode with ornamentation. I think it is important to state that these girls sang in more metallic modes like overdrive and edge.

Me knowing the girl was influenced by gospel and RnB totally gets why she sings the way she does.

This type of behavior wasn't only amongst the ladies, but also amongst the baritones and tenors who used different modes and different effects.

I suppose my question is this, why do voices who use different modes and effects feel that another voice with different modes and effects is either a.) Wrong. b.) Bad. Or c.) Why  they "just don't get it.

I understand that any time auditions are involved it is a competitive environment. I understand people will have catty and hurtful remarks to try and psyche their perceived competition out. However, one thing I have never understood is why anyone, a vocalist or an instructor, and I have seen many, feel that anyone who sings differently than they do as " wrong" or "incorrect."

And why, for example does someone get jealous of someone who may use ornamentation? And why do people think that edgier and more overdrive singers that use say distortion are trying to outsing everyone?

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hehe. I been posting on fbook (public and PM) and cell phone messaging this attractive girl I am interested in.     I closed Fb then I came over here and saw "petty jealousy" and for a minute I thought I was back on Fbook lol. (I was wondering how you read my fb remarks lol)

 

Yeah, its interesting. I have been an electric guitar player for like 28 years only JUST starting to sing in a focused way. So I started posting on a guitar forum about 18 months ago. After a few weeks I just gave up on the forum because of the massive egos. Every single thread was just cattiness and petty bitching and extreme hair splitting of terms etc etc. I chalked it up to lead guitar players ego.

 

THEN I CAME HERE!!!

omg

 

I was trying to figure out why every single thread just turned unto some really petty back n forth argument over really tiny shades of differences in terminology etc. Then I realized it of course.

 

SINGERS HAVE TWICE THE EGO OF MERE GUITAR PLAYERS!!      Its a numbers game. There are 50 guitar players for every 1 singer

 

So I try to keep that in mind now lol

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Well, that is certainly why I left opera for CCM (Contemporary Commercial Music). I was exhausted with singing the same literature. In Bel Canto, and largely opera as a whole the text is composed specifically for voice types and their capabilities. The operatic community is fraught with baritones jealous of tenors, with mezzos jealous of full sopranos and vice versa.

Of course, there is a lot of catering to tenors and sopranos, so I understand the grief. I tend to feel that is such a natural experience that we want the capabilities that we do not have. Personally I wish I could be as rich and dramatic as a baritonal voice. I unfortunately can't and am respective of my own capabilities.

I try to remain as objective and encouraging as possible, though, when situations such as this arise it is certainly such a discouraging thing.

I don't find that there is any "wrong" way to sing. But, why detract and break someone down, when, I think the idea of music is to bring people together, not divide them in an elitist way.

It is just plain gross.

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Hymm....

"SINGERS HAVE TWICE THE EGO"

Is it really that these singers have an over inflated ego or in actuality a poor ego?....a poor sense of self?

 

 

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11 minutes ago, VideoHere said:

Hymm....

"SINGERS HAVE TWICE THE EGO"

Is it really that these singers have an over inflated ego or in actuality a poor ego?....a poor sense of self?

 

 

see my point......       !!!!!!!!   lol. The arguments over terminology start right away! It doesnt matter that a person knows EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN....its that inborn argumentative thing. No escape

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2 hours ago, K. Mc said:

Hello everyone! Well, I have a soprano friend who is auditioning for a role in this musical and I just attended one of the rehearsals last evening and I was really shocked about the catty behavior from some of the other vocalists. Most notably whenever everyone had been chatting with each other after it was over.

Standing beside my friend, two other girls who auditioned told her that: "well, we have heard you sing karaoke, but can you actually sing?" An obvious negative remark. And then they proceeded to say to her: "Why do you sing that way? Do all the extra?" They were referring to her curbing mode with ornamentation. I think it is important to state that these girls sang in more metallic modes like overdrive and edge.

Me knowing the girl was influenced by gospel and RnB totally gets why she sings the way she does.

This type of behavior wasn't only amongst the ladies, but also amongst the baritones and tenors who used different modes and different effects.

I suppose my question is this, why do voices who use different modes and effects feel that another voice with different modes and effects is either a.) Wrong. b.) Bad. Or c.) Why  they "just don't get it.

I understand that any time auditions are involved it is a competitive environment. I understand people will have catty and hurtful remarks to try and psyche their perceived competition out. However, one thing I have never understood is why anyone, a vocalist or an instructor, and I have seen many, feel that anyone who sings differently than they do as " wrong" or "incorrect."

And why, for example does someone get jealous of someone who may use ornamentation? And why do people think that edgier and more overdrive singers that use say distortion are trying to outsing everyone?

Well, I know you already know that some people come from certain schools of thought that demand things to be done a certain way.

It can also be a taste thing. The question you raised about people who may get jealous of ornamentation is also a valid. My answer to that is it requires creativity. You've got to know how to improvise. Especially when it comes to note selection in riffs. It's not an easy thing to do. People may also be jealous of a sound somebody is creating, because they don't know how to do create it. They may also not really understand that somebody can sing a certain way, that seems to be more attention-grabbing, just because it's natural for them.

I think, in an audition setting, it's jealousy, and people feel threatened.

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I also play guitar. Reminds me of the joke:

Do you know how many guitar players it takes to change a light bulb?

Five. One to do it and four to stand around and say, "yeah, I can do that."

Singers have just as much ego.

But ego is also a human or primate thing. This will offend two groups of people. Those who believe in creation and those who believe in evolution. We are oversized chimpanzees fighting over bananas, even if the banana is the attention of an audience or securing a role in a musical. We kill millions of fellow humans for oil. So, yeah, I can see competitiveness, even over the most minor of things. That will offend religious people because it's evolution. That will offend evolutionists because we are simply an upright ape and having speech and math and Ford Excursions does not make us superior or better or masters of the universe. Just, as CS Lewis described in "The Screwtape Letters," relatively hairless and bipedal apes.

Even to say we are "above it all the jealousy" is also a feeling of being superior. It's the nature of the beast.

"You know where you are? You're in the jungle, baby. You're gonna die ......"

 

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I wanted to find a funny quote I read one day about the devil residing in the choir (church choirs :D ) but just found this story now that reflects on some of the many possible problems: http://forum.deviantart.com/community/life/2135556/

The thing is that choirs, in general, are just a hobby. I don't even want to imagine the atmosphere in competitive circles... 

As for the discussions in this forum, Jon, it is clear they enjoy the arguments... :D they've been here talking of singing for years now! We can only be happy they are still around willing to talk some. :)

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2 hours ago, VideoHere said:

Not at all Jon....not looking to argue at all.....just offering another perspective.

 

you know I was only joking brother...but u just helped me make my point lol

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And I don't even know who is Calvin. :D

 

More: I am reading now about Music Therapy. :D

Well, being true, my stay in the choir has been very happy in general, but I can see the problems (mostly after the fact lol ), and my throat was ill so I am a believer in music therapy.

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    I don't mind being wrong, as long as I find out that the guy telling me I am wrong was in fact right. Then again, If I am wrong, how do I know that he was right until I test him and his knowledge?

    Arguing out of pettiness is a waste. Arguing to gain the other persons knowledge is good tactics. Befriending him is better.

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9 minutes ago, MDEW said:

    I don't mind being wrong, as long as I find out that the guy telling me I am wrong was in fact right. Then again, If I am wrong, how do I know that he was right until I test him and his knowledge?

    Arguing out of pettiness is a waste. Arguing to gain the other persons knowledge is good tactics. Befriending him is better.

AFAIC, singing isnt quite like math....the whole concept of "right" and "wrong" doesnt seem to hold.

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    Correct, singing is nothing like math. I ask questions in hopes to be guided. If I am guided by a term or list of things to guide to a certain Sound or coordination, (overdrive, Hold, Curbing, Edge, falsetto, support .............) I would hope that there is some kind of standard meaning. For some there is ........ Others are borderline.

 

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1 minute ago, MDEW said:

    Correct, singing is nothing like math. I ask questions in hopes to be guided. If I am guided by a term or list of things to guide to a certain Sound or coordination, (overdrive, Hold, Curbing, Edge, falsetto, support .............) I would hope that there is some kind of standard meaning. For some there is ........ Others are borderline.

 

haha....let me keep on reading then because I havent seen ANYTHING be agreed on yet....even after 15 pages of back n forth lol

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    True. If you read through some of those debates and try some of the different suggestions on areas that you have problems, you will be surprised at what helps. My best gains were after and during some of these debates( sometimes just by checking on what I posted to see if it has merit).

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53 minutes ago, JonJon said:

you know I was only joking brother...but u just helped me make my point lol

Okay, I think I can read you better now Jon....no pun intended...lol!!!

My fear is that I don't come across as a "know it all."  :blush:

It's like my little arguments with Daniel...He and I are good friends...I may not agree with him at times, but I respect him highly.

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I wanted to link in the "rock-off" from the movie Pick of Destiny but there is a lot of colorful language and we might have members who would be offended. But it is a really good song. Check it out on youtube. But it was a high-stakes competition between the devil, played by the awesome Dave Grohl, and Tenacious D.

 

 

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I've always had issues with this. A lot of people are very competitive and given a chance, will often step on other people to try to get ahead and it is in basically any circumstance. It's like a pecking order has to form somehow, someway. 

As for modes and ornamentation, I have tastes, and it is basically I favor when the sound matches the emotional state being expressed. If a line in the song says, "So sad" yet the singer's vocal tract sounds like they are smiling and they have 30 vowel shifts on the word sad. It gets sarcasm points, but if they are trying for sincerity it can be lost.

For me it is like certain emotional states influence phrasing, melody, and timbre of the vocal tract. So sometimes it sounds incongruent. You could say I don't favor 'traditional singing' per se. What I like more is human expression in a musical context. It could be someone straining to sing a single note in between the modes, possibly out of key, that I like (Lou Reed), or it could be someone in the center of a mode improvising (Stevie Wonder).

Deep down, it usually hits me either as someone trying to fit humanity into a musical context that it can never quite fit. People aren't merely instruments or formulaic devices. Human emotions, experiences, thoughts, and perspectives can never be bound by rules or formulas). I have nothing against traditional singers, and don't feel superior, but for my tastes I love so much when it feels like a person struggling to express something human in a musical context, and am left cold when it feels like the person is executing 'traditional singing.' Imitating the past too closely, playing by the rules, being a traditional singer in any genre. All of that stuff doesn't really interest me."How can you fit a human being into a musical context without compromising their humanity, autonomy, individuality, and expression"? When it sounds like the singer asks that question for every syllable, consonant, and so forth and tries to answer. That's the singing that I hold most dear.

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Where as sometimes it sounds more like the questions and answering in singing are more like:

Which vocal mode fits into my traditional genre? Oh yeah, I'm soul guy better curb.

How can I make this high note as big a possible? Oh yeah, dampen the larynx, twang, blah blah blah.

How can I sing this note so it doesn't offend people? Better make sure it's auto tuned! 

How can I make a tone everyone will love? Well everyone liked that one guy in the past better imitate him!

How can I convince people I'm a good singer? Well if I do a lot of notes real fast like!

Sometimes it really sounds like that to me. It's that other question that I love so much more. It seems to get closer to the answers I like to hear from singers.

How can you fit a human being into a musical context without compromising their humanity, individuality, and sincere expression"?

It sounds like my favorite singers tried to answer that question for their entire lives with their voices. A life long struggle. It never ends.

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Hi,

singing is a creative art, and people take it personally.  I do. We wrestle with the art on technical and interpretive levels, and strive to achieve the ideal, the perfection we have found inspires us. We discover, or learn, what aesthetic to apply to the situation and the music...doing so over many, many years in most cases.

one thing that rarely happens in musical productions is the building of the 'team'.  Even without the egocentric tendencies of the art, arising from the strong, inner drive to create what has been imagined, it is very, very hard to build camaraderie and a culture of mutual support when we are competing for a role, and the attention ( and responsibility) that attend it.

such things lessen in importance with experience, and especially accomplishment and success. This also applies to the interpretation of other people's comments, which are filtered via our own presuppositions of situational elements.

ok, stepping down from my theoretical bulk soap container...

 

 

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2 hours ago, YouCanSingAnything said:

I have built a very strong ego over the course of the last year or so on the internet. In real life I don't have much ego about this stuff; just enough to survive. On the internet you gotta be rock solid or it won't be your ego that gets broken down, but your soul.

I have to disagree a little there. If a person is really rock solid, then the LAST thing they do is argue itsy bitsy points to the death

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3 hours ago, YouCanSingAnything said:


But yeah it's weird people love to gossip about another persons voice. I rarely heard this studying music production "OMG did you hear Jessie's mix?
 

I don't know about Jessie's mix but you know, I wish that I had Jessie's girl. Jessie's been a friend, you know, he's been a good friend of mine. But lately something's changed.

And she's looking at him with those eyes. She's loving him with that body, I just know it. He's holding her close way late at night. I wish that I had Jessie's girl. Why can't I find a woman like that? I want Jessie's girl.

A classic tale of coveting they neighbor's significant other.

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