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singing with hold back?

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folks,

did you ever explore singing with (this could be tough to explain) a holding back, condensed, intentionally tense kind of sound?

you could have sung the same line smoothly, but you choose to condense the tone?

nothing hurts, or feels uncomfortable but you get this richer, thicker tone?

what's your take on that?

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When you said hold back, I was thinking of breath support. For example, in "Rainbow in the Dark," I do not hold back. In "I don't Believe in Love," I do hold back. And it has to do with the emotion and intent of the song, at least for me.

That's probably not helping much.

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folks,

did you ever explore singing with (this could be tough to explain) a holding back, condensed, intentionally tense kind of sound?

you could have sung the same line smoothly, but you choose to condense the tone?

nothing hurts, or feels uncomfortable but you get this richer, thicker tone?

what's your take on that?

Hi, Bob! Yes, I've explored this, and also thought about what this approach does to the coordination of breath and laryngeal muscle action.

My take? The holding back reduces the exhalation force, which raises the closed phase of the phonation. This creates a tone that could be very well described as 'richer, thicker'. In fact, if not taken too far, it can be a help for the singer who tends to push too much air.

Up above the passaggio, this technique will produce a brilliant top to the male voice.

Record it, and post! We'd love to hear it.

Oh, and if you want to get funky, try doing messa di voce with this. Particularly, see how softly you can make this meaty tone. It is especially useful to have this kind of dynamic/tone quality combination: soft & brilliant full voice.

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This thread demands recorded samples. Show us what all these words really sound like bob. :)

Even though people might think they are doing the same thing based on emotions and sensations they could be producing very different sounds!

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It would be great to hear you post a sample, Bob, of yourself or someone else doing this, so we're not guessing too much. But it sounds like you are talking about that CVT calls curbing and SLS calls mixed voice.

Steven Fraser: If you sing an Uh as in "hungry", I as in "sit" or O as in "woman" on a note just above your passagio, say an A4, with medium volume - will it automatically have this "hold"? I wonder if maybe there is no way to sing those 3 vowels above your passagio in medium volume without using the hold. It would be very interesting to hear your take on this! :)

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Steven Fraser: If you sing an Uh as in "hungry", I as in "sit" or O as in "woman" on a note just above your passagio, say an A4, with medium volume - will it automatically have this "hold"? I wonder if maybe there is no way to sing those 3 vowels above your passagio in medium volume without using the hold. It would be very interesting to hear your take on this! :)

Same here, i'm fighting to lose that "hold" habit.

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joshual and jonpall, this is really interesting, because i like the sound when it's held, but it takes effort, support being mandatory. and here you are joshual looking to eliminate it...veeeery interesting...lol!!

yes steve, i also await your reply.

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Hi, Bob! Yes, I've explored this, and also thought about what this approach does to the coordination of breath and laryngeal muscle action.

My take? The holding back reduces the exhalation force, which raises the closed phase of the phonation. This creates a tone that could be very well described as 'richer, thicker'. In fact, if not taken too far, it can be a help for the singer who tends to push too much air.

Up above the passaggio, this technique will produce a brilliant top to the male voice.

Record it, and post! We'd love to hear it.

Oh, and if you want to get funky, try doing messa di voce with this. Particularly, see how softly you can make this meaty tone. It is especially useful to have this kind of dynamic/tone quality combination: soft & brilliant full voice.

steve, do you have any examples of this sound?

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The "hold" or Curbing is what Bel Canto (standard operatic) teaches in the passagio area - around E4 to Ab4. This is how I normally sing in that range. In that range you have a choice of Curbing or Overdirve - which is a "shouting" type of sound. It sounds cool and requires a lot of support. Or you can take your Neutral Headvoice down that low, but to me it sounds too light. Some tenors do that though and that's fine, and twang helps out here.

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The "hold" or Curbing is what Bel Canto (standard operatic) teaches in the passagio area - around E4 to Ab4. This is how I normally sing in that range. In that range you have a choice of Curbing or Overdirve - which is a "shouting" type of sound. It sounds cool and requires a lot of support. Or you can take your Neutral Headvoice down that low, but to me it sounds too light. Some tenors do that though and that's fine, and twang helps out here.

thanks guitartrek... that helped me a lot to help explain things.

i found a blatant example of what i'm trying to convey.

this is an old r&b hit...sorry no live version ..but listen to the hold, the compression, which gives it such intensity and drive.

it's happening in so many places and there are places where if you didn't stay supported and keep the chords connected the whole thing could fall apart. it sounds so "umphy" so chesty and meaty.

another interesting thing is the highest note is only g4!

i love this vocal. is this is chest pulling, then i'm okay with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2uQyP-I2VI

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joshual and jonpall, this is really interesting, because i like the sound when it's held, but it takes effort, support being mandatory. and here you are joshual looking to eliminate it...veeeery interesting...lol!!

yes steve, i also await your reply.

Yes it's very interresting! I've always been a natural "curber", it's really natural for me, and some years ago i took some lessons with a Bel Canto maestro, it was really great but didn't help me at all removing the hold lol.

I don't want to remove all of the "hold", because it's a part of me,but if it could be lighter sometimes i would be happy lol. It's so demanding on support, i get tired really quickly (physically) if i always sing in "curbing"....

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Yes it's very interresting! I've always been a natural "curber", it's really natural for me, and some years ago i took some lessons with a Bel Canto maestro, it was really great but didn't help me at all removing the hold lol.

I don't want to remove all of the "hold", because it's a part of me,but if it could be lighter sometimes i would be happy lol. It's so demanding on support, i get tired really quickly (physically) if i always sing in "curbing"....

it sure is demanding.

i was hoping you'd guys would confirm that for me. you made my day jonpall!

but i think as we get stronger we can vary the hold..i feel i can at times. lou gramm sings with a lot of that hold and you can here the variety on this track...

i love this vocal!

i'll bet he would have made a capable opera singer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwuB2Oaekc4

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Bob - yeah Lou is fantastic and he is definitely a "curber"!

Here's an example of me sing as light as I can go in curbing (hold) E4 through A4 at the beginning of this song. It is not head. It can be done without requiring as much support, through practice. I was going to post this on the review page but it is a good example for this topic. Near the end I go up to B4 in curbing withou going into head. Its possible to go higher than that too without going into head.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9925494

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Bob - yeah Lou is fantastic and he is definitely a "curber"!

Here's an example of me sing as light as I can go in curbing (hold) E4 through A4 at the beginning of this song. It is not head. It can be done without requiring as much support, through practice. I was going to post this on the review page but it is a good example for this topic. Near the end I go up to B4 in curbing withou going into head. Its possible to go higher than that too without going into head.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9925494

yes geno, that's a good example!! nice vocals!!!

you see now to me (remember i'm non-cvt knowledgeable) that b4 is a well supported head voice note.

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i just edited my post lol!!!!

see above..

I know you think it is head. I want to post a few examples of singing in that range in chest (curbing and overdrive) and head for you. I can feel the difference and I think you'll be able to hear the difference too.

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I know you think it is head. I want to post a few examples of singing in that range in chest (curbing and overdrive) and head for you. I can feel the difference and I think you'll be able to hear the difference too.

great man. you see when i refer to a hold the note originates above the chords in the soft palate, but if feels like it's coming from way down below.

i'm heading out to a karaoke show, but i'll check back with you because this issue is very interesting/important to me.

if you want to email me samples rather than just place them on the forum you can email me

videohere@earthlink.net

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