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Is there a "traditional" sticking point around f5-f#5

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I have seen threads about "the dreaded A4" etc....so I assume it is a well known and common sticking point with well known solutions etc

 

What about the f5-F#5 area? is that any type of "traditional" sticking point? I ask because im hitting a pretty solid wall around that point. IIRC when I first started I could falsetto up around there. Well now I can do a nice connected siren up to around f#5 but thats it...brick wall there lol.

 

I know there is a bridge in that area somewhere, I feel a certain change somewhere around B4 so I assume I have a bridge in that general area. So starting about 3 weeks ago I was able to begin sirening cleanly through that bridge and now I can pretty much take ANY vowel and siren from down low up to right at f5-f#5 without any hiccups or flips etc. Or I can also onset at that high note and bring the note all the way down connected

 

for a vague reference, here is a nice sustained F#5 (1:14, 2:20 etc). This is not a super strong or super twangy note, if anything its pretty light because i was trying to hit it light so I could hold it at a steady level.    https://app.box.com/s/57e8hsloikcjn78se2shpt09wz9y1lk4

 

So that was a decent sustained note on "you" at f#5.  The note wasnt super strong, for one reason because I had to hold that one breath etc but also because im simply topped out right there. BUT THATS IT!  right now I cant even really squeak any higher lol. So I dont think that would necessarily be a "bridge"....since there is no note to bridge to. Seems more like I just run out of strength right there.

 

Essentially I have been training long sirens almost exclusively, low to high, high to low, just working to smooth out the passagios etc.

 

for me to go higher, is it just a matter now of spending quality time building strength around the d5,d#5,e5 area in order to be able to push on higher up? I havent really worked those notes THAT much, although when i do my sirens from high to low I often onset strongly on those high notes and hold and vibrato them before coming down and when I do supported sirens up I sometimes stop and vibrato that top note (which gets really twangy/ducky)

 

What specific muscles are we talking about here?  I feel that I am a fairly strong twanger....if anything I seem to get a bit ducky up high. What about specific onsets....A&R and C&R maybe? What about whistle, should I work on that a bit to at least start getting some squeaks up high? lol

 

pretty sure David C topped out around this nice live A5. In my mind I have a goal of something like a nice Mark Boals C6.

 

 

Any ideas? thanks, JJ

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It is another passaggio. Start trying to get the D5-F5 with less weight, thin out etc. The higher you go the less vowel choices you have.

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6 minutes ago, MDEW said:

It is another passaggio. Start trying to get the D5-F5 with less weight, thin out etc. The higher you go the less vowel choices you have.

yeah, its interesting because I can get up there on any vowel and I can do sirens up there either supported or non supported but once I hit that spot thats it.

The strong notes that high seem very focused and piercing though, not airy. Seems at the very high end they are connected with whistle

btw, Maria Callas was a beast!

 

one of my fave songs, Mark Boals hitting some nice notes

 

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Just as when having to change to a falsetto around G4 before your training a similar thing happens there. go lighter more relaxed and let the voice shift to a new coordination. Sounds easy right?

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Jon, have you tried top-down sirens? It's possible that coming from the bottom-up you are bringing too much weight up. When I have trouble with certain high notes, I'll start from the top and blend my way down. You might be taking the weight that you have from the C5-D5 area and bringing it up to that F-F#5 and hitting a ceiling.

For me, starting around E5 is like another bridge, where more weight gets shed off. The sound ends up being a light but bright and twangy head tone. Don't put too much weight into it, the notes are not heavy, but the bright and twangy timbre makes them sound huge.

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12 minutes ago, Jabroni said:

Jon, have you tried top-down sirens? It's possible that coming from the bottom-up you are bringing too much weight up. When I have trouble with certain high notes, I'll start from the top and blend my way down. You might be taking the weight that you have from the C5-D5 area and bringing it up to that F-F#5 and hitting a ceiling.

For me, starting around E5 is like another bridge, where more weight gets shed off. The sound ends up being a light but bright and twangy head tone. Don't put too much weight into it, the notes are not heavy, but the bright and twangy timbre makes them sound huge.

yeah, I do sirens on 10 different vowels. I start off light mass/light or no support. first I do low to high. Then I go thru them all again high to low. Then I start over but this time supported. Up..then down

as of yet there simply isnt anything going on much about f#5 lol

 

One thing I havent really tried yet is sirens STARTING at like c5 or d5 and then going up. I have just been doing full range sirens from chest up as high as I can go and then also do them from that high note down

 

So far I havent REALLY focused on it much, as it has only really come to my attention in the last month or so. i am just trying to get some tech ideas before I start focusing on it

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I top out at a A#5 to B5. TFPOS MdV is what helped me be able to control my head voice in that range. I started where I had control, and then slowly worked my way up. It helped me so much that I started training students the same way to get better control over their head voice. Another thing that's helped my students greatly, apart from MdV, is first using the "oo" vowel, to help give them a solid feeling for head voice placement on difficult notes, before venturing into other vowels.

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Along with the others advice, including that of Jens, who used to play with a whistle voice range just because he liked it, is one more thing about the region above D5.

Now, a warning, this is science, so of course it will be unpopular and rejected. But it will not be incorrect. so, a warning to others, you can cry and beat your head against a brick wall and it is not going to change it, you can beat your chest like the overgrown chimps that we are and it will not change.

You can call me any name in the book, throw a bunch of goosenfrabe at me, you can even step on my blue suede shoes and it will not change these facts. Okay, so now that I have prepared everyone for the temper tantrum they will have:

As I cautiously look both ways; a note you sing is caused by sound vibration. Specifically, you apply air and the vocal folds vibrate back and forth at a certain number of times a second and this is known as the frequency. And a wave length is the peak to peak measurement.

Now, the sound from the folds is not very loud and it has no particular vowel sound, it is just tissue flapping near or one each other. As the wave moves, it will find places, now and then, where the fundamental can be "resonated." Resonance is purely the action of a sound wave, or any kind of wave, really, meeting objects and reflecting from them. If the sound wave is in a space that has dimensions that match the wavelength, then that wave, especially if the surfaces are hard enough, will reflect the same wavelength, in phase, which means the peaks are line up together, The height of the peak above zero, which is the rest point of the folds, is called amplitude. And amplitude equals volume and this has been standard and true for longer than anyone on this forum has been alive because it is a matter of physics, not popular vote or wishes.

Not all sounds generated from the folds will be resonated. There was a study to show the difference between Pavarotti and a recording of Caruso to show the number of partials present. One had 3 partials present, another had 5. How many partials are present in a sound really depends on how many you are creating at the fold and how many you can create with the resonating structure you were born with. these partials are also what give us vowel sounds. Now, for the actual reason I am spewing this into the wind knowing full well it will be ignored and debated against, not because I am wrong, but because we are simians and simians fight, it's what we do, better than anything, and we even make a career and entertainment out of fighting.

Around D5 and higher, and maybe a little lower, depending on your physical structure because of genetics and not any training, the spaces for resonating become increasing small. And they become smaller in a logarithmic fashion, not a linear fashion. That means that you have to make spaces drastically smaller the higher you, not smaller by measured increments of goosenfrabe. And these spaces match the size of the fundamental. And nothing else. That is, there is just room to resonate the fundamental and not enough room to resonate partials. So, you lose the distinct vowel sounds and it is not a sign of bad technique that you loose those distinct sounds, it is a matter of physics, regardless of which church you go to. So, go ahead and beat your head bloody on that.

So, most people have problems at this point because they think their faith counts more than physics and I cannot stop them. All I can do is have an easier time up there than others have. And when others ask me how do I do that, instead of reiterating this long-winded soliloquy, I tell them I have a deal with Satan, the Vocal Folds of Destiny (thanks, Jack Black.) That, and I was not born a baritone, but that also opens another can of worms.

The part that is truly evil and sacreligious about what I do with notes that high is that I do them however my voice does them, not trying to match the tone of another singer, per se. Just making the note. And that, of course, is the most grave sin of all.

"I'm on the highway to hell ..."

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    Gaining access to the resonant spaces is what Jens is showing how to do with the vowel modification. Pretty much the same thing that Felipe did in his video of "How to sing High notes" around the G4-A4 area.

     Once you learn how to access the space then you can learn or train ways to strengthen it.

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6 hours ago, ronws said:

Along with the others advice, including that of Jens, who used to play with a whistle voice range just because he liked it, is one more thing about the region above D5.

Now, a warning, this is science, so of course it will be unpopular and rejected. But it will not be incorrect. so, a warning to others, you can cry and beat your head against a brick wall and it is not going to change it, you can beat your chest like the overgrown chimps that we are and it will not change.

You can call me any name in the book, throw a bunch of goosenfrabe at me, you can even step on my blue suede shoes and it will not change these facts. Okay, so now that I have prepared everyone for the temper tantrum they will have:

As I cautiously look both ways; a note you sing is caused by sound vibration. Specifically, you apply air and the vocal folds vibrate back and forth at a certain number of times a second and this is known as the frequency. And a wave length is the peak to peak measurement.

Now, the sound from the folds is not very loud and it has no particular vowel sound, it is just tissue flapping near or one each other. As the wave moves, it will find places, now and then, where the fundamental can be "resonated." Resonance is purely the action of a sound wave, or any kind of wave, really, meeting objects and reflecting from them. If the sound wave is in a space that has dimensions that match the wavelength, then that wave, especially if the surfaces are hard enough, will reflect the same wavelength, in phase, which means the peaks are line up together, The height of the peak above zero, which is the rest point of the folds, is called amplitude. And amplitude equals volume and this has been standard and true for longer than anyone on this forum has been alive because it is a matter of physics, not popular vote or wishes.

Not all sounds generated from the folds will be resonated. There was a study to show the difference between Pavarotti and a recording of Caruso to show the number of partials present. One had 3 partials present, another had 5. How many partials are present in a sound really depends on how many you are creating at the fold and how many you can create with the resonating structure you were born with. these partials are also what give us vowel sounds. Now, for the actual reason I am spewing this into the wind knowing full well it will be ignored and debated against, not because I am wrong, but because we are simians and simians fight, it's what we do, better than anything, and we even make a career and entertainment out of fighting.

Around D5 and higher, and maybe a little lower, depending on your physical structure because of genetics and not any training, the spaces for resonating become increasing small. And they become smaller in a logarithmic fashion, not a linear fashion. That means that you have to make spaces drastically smaller the higher you, not smaller by measured increments of goosenfrabe. And these spaces match the size of the fundamental. And nothing else. That is, there is just room to resonate the fundamental and not enough room to resonate partials. So, you lose the distinct vowel sounds and it is not a sign of bad technique that you loose those distinct sounds, it is a matter of physics, regardless of which church you go to. So, go ahead and beat your head bloody on that.

So, most people have problems at this point because they think their faith counts more than physics and I cannot stop them. All I can do is have an easier time up there than others have. And when others ask me how do I do that, instead of reiterating this long-winded soliloquy, I tell them I have a deal with Satan, the Vocal Folds of Destiny (thanks, Jack Black.) That, and I was not born a baritone, but that also opens another can of worms.

The part that is truly evil and sacreligious about what I do with notes that high is that I do them however my voice does them, not trying to match the tone of another singer, per se. Just making the note. And that, of course, is the most grave sin of all.

"I'm on the highway to hell ..."

 

Im ex USAF and did radio electronics (circuit level)....so I am on board with everything you said there.

 

That being said (and I havent watched Jens vid yet but I will in a minute) I did have a small breakthrough while training at work today. Nothing major mind you, I didnt all of a sudden pop up to A5.

I was doing my sirens, same as always. Hitting that same brick wall. Effort level and/or concentration didnt matter much. All vowels, same same. Supported, unsupported, push hard, eased into...all about the same.

Now, referring to "feeling the note in the back of the head". yeah, I felt that a while back when trying to hit the Fleetwood Mac line from "Hold Me" where Lyndsay says "there nobody in the future". Of course we all know Rob has a vid or two on that subject "stop hitting HIGH notes" etc.

I have been feeling the notes in the back of my head, or trying to "place" them there etc. Its worked well enough to get me to F#5 on all vowels. The EXACT thing I have been doing though is trying to get the note to the back of my head but then trying to feel it go UP my head...or picturing it going waaayyy up thru the nasopharynx up into the brain lol

So today I tried something different. Instead of going "back and up" I just went "straight back" while staying low in the back of the head. I did feel a tiny itsy bitsy better feel there so I think thats a better spot to try to resonate. Funny enough, the vowel that sort of broke a little bit higher was "i" (tight). Note sure I ever touched G5 but I definitely felt a tiny improvement. That was also after doing about 3/4ths of my siren routine so I wasnt really fresh. Im assuming when I try it fresh that ill have even better results.

 

There is an interesting physical point about it. You know how us amateurs sort of try to "help" the note with our body language?? So to make a note go 'high' we might crane our neck or raise the eyebrows and make the eyes big?? lol

Well once I started trying to feel the note go back deep thru the back of my head, the body language changed to match lol. Next thing you know I am leaning back and maybe pulling the head back some. Maybe thats not 100% correct but I have seen MANY top singer do that exact thing. See Bobs avatar.

or the Coverdale clip I posted above

 

 

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12 hours ago, Jens said:

hope it helps 

 

 

thanks brother, good stuff.

One thing that rang a bell to me was when you said "forward"....because essentially I dont do much "forward" at this point. I'll work on that

 

And to clarify, that airy f#5 had nothing to do with this post lol. That one was "airy" on purpose because I was having trouble holding that note (which is the top of my range) for the length of time I wanted to hold it on that one breath. So I just did it very lightly and doubled it. That was also the highest note ive ever put into a song lol.

 

that airy note was NOT an attempt to go higher than F#5 lol. When I am doing my sirens i am using PLENTY of energy. I usually hit that top pretty twangy and vibrato it etc.  I dont think the energy itself is the problem, I think it is as you say, a placement thing and using that certain vowel to "find" the pocket etc

 

Thanks brother, C6 or bust

 

Peace, JJ

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12 hours ago, Jens said:

hope it helps 

 

 

 

btw, are you feeling that resonance or "pocket" in any particular place in your head? you mention 'forward' which I take to mean "very edgy". But WHERE do you feel the note?

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4 minutes ago, JonJon said:

 

thanks brother, good stuff.

One thing that rang a bell to me was when you said "forward"....because essentially I dont do much "forward" at this point. I'll work on that

 

And to clarify, that airy f#5 had nothing to do with this post lol. That one was "airy" on purpose because I was having trouble holding that note (which is the top of my range) for the length of time I wanted to hold it on that one breath. So I just did it very lightly and doubled it. That was also the highest note ive ever put into a song lol.

 

that airy note was NOT an attempt to go higher than F#5 lol. When I am doing my sirens i am using PLENTY of energy. I usually hit that top pretty twangy and vibrato it etc.  I dont think the energy itself is the problem, I think it is as you say, a placement thing and using that certain vowel to "find" the pocket etc

 

Thanks brother, C6 or bust

 

Peace, JJ

Yeah i know you can do that aswell, but i still had to point it out as you used that F5# as an audio example, the vowel is more important it can be done anywhere in your range. You do it take it higher and youll get above the F5#

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4 minutes ago, JonJon said:

 

 

btw, are you feeling that resonance or "pocket" in any particular place in your head? you mention 'forward' which I take to mean "very edgy". But WHERE do you feel the note?

Listen to the vowel, forward is not edgy, forward is forward listen to how the sound changes between the two examples :)

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Just now, Jens said:

Listen to the vowel, forward is not edgy, forward is forward listen to how the sound changes between the two examples :)

so u feel it up in the teeth? lol

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12 hours ago, Jens said:

hope it helps 

 

 

yeah, I listened again and I see what you are doing with the modification...its coming forward. Thats going to be a little bit new for me because I have always tried to go "backwards". I have generally not ever felt much up in the sort of front half of the mouth etc

 

Ill work on it. I'll break g5 within the week

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Forward would mean "edgy" in the TVS Method Jon... as you know. So don't get confused.  

If you are referring to these screams in the 5th octave that Jens is demonstrating, ( sounds great Jens...), it is not felt in the forward hard palate. Its too high for that Jon. 

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35 minutes ago, JonJon said:

so u feel it up in the teeth? lol

it doesnt matter the feeling that is, just do the vowel. how it feels like when you do it, remember that feeling probably doesnt feel the same to everyone. When i talk about forward or backwards placement here is not the same as the Tvs vowels wich Robert points out, this is more of a trick or onset you can use to get above that particular spot. This position sucks in the lowrange, but when you do it uphigh add some twang then we are talking

edit: Just listen to the sample and repeat its nothing more then that, the vowel im talking about sure aint edgy and if you go down that route youll lock up again

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13 minutes ago, Jens said:

it doesnt matter the feeling that is, just do the vowel. how it feels like when you do it, remember that feeling probably doesnt feel the same to everyone. When i talk about forward or backwards placement here is not the same as the Tvs vowels wich Robert points out, this is more of a trick or onset you can use to get above that particular spot. This position sucks in the lowrange, but when you do it uphigh add some twang then we are talking

edit: Just listen to the sample and repeat its nothing more then that, the vowel im talking about sure aint edgy and if you go down that route youll lock up again

good, cause my edging sux lol

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going to throw this into the thread for others who run across this thread in the future. Some more good examples of high range stuff etc

I gotta put this here so I dont have to keep looking it up lol.

Jens. Ridiculously inspirational

Jens said--->

0:00- 0:50 Vocalfry and M1 

0:50- 1:23 M2 tops out at around soprano C6#

1:23 to end is whistle it's very very obvious when your in whistle, you wont get the power guys like Ian have in the C5-C6 range using this coordination it would be really really thin and frail.

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2 hours ago, JonJon said:

 

Im ex USAF and did radio electronics (circuit level)....so I am on board with everything you said there.

 

 

And my step-grandfather was radio electronics in the Army, halfway between Korea and Viet Nam. And he started giving me books on the stuff when I was ten. By the time I was eleven, he had given me a high-school level primer on Einstein's theories of relativity. And was teaching me the short-cut version of single variable differential and integral calculus. I would study the multi-variable stuff later. I had several editions of the Radio Amateurs Handbook as published by the ARRL for several years.

So, for others who think it sounds like I know what I am talking about, I kinda do, including grade transcripts from Eastfield Comm College with 98.5 average in active devices and a 102.3 average in sinusoidal circuits. I broke the curve and the department records for those classes. And my original major at UT Arlington (University of Texas at Arlington) was EE.

And Einstein was wrong on some things and even he knew it and I read his notes for autobiography in the original german.

(okay, ron, shut up, we get it, you read too much ...)

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1 minute ago, ronws said:

And my step-grandfather was radio electronics in the Army, halfway between Korea and Viet Nam. And he started giving me books on the stuff when I was ten. By the time I was eleven, he had given me a high-school level primer on Einstein's theories of relativity. And was teaching me the short-cut version of single variable differential and integral calculus. I would the multi-variable stuff later. I had several editions of the Radio Amateurs Handbook as published by the ARRL for several years.

So, for others who think it sounds like I know what I am talking about, I kinda do, including grade transcripts from Eastfield Comm College with 98.5 average in active devices and a 102.3 average in sinusoidal circuits. I broke the curve and the department records for those classes.

And Einstein was wrong on some things and even he knew it and I read his notes for autobiography in the original german.

(okay, ron, shut up, we get it, you read too much ...)

I wasnt trying to brag lol. Just saying I understand resonance (and tuning). It doesnt have to be THAT complicated. A piccolo resonates much higher than an Oboe. A note above F#5 will obviously be resonating in a very small space...which I havent quite found yet.

Its a little harder to find that spot so far.  A 2.4Ghz antenna is easier to hide than a VLF array

 

And Jens demonstrates his approach to accessing those high notes by using a forward placement....makes sense because I havent looked there yet lol

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1 hour ago, JonJon said:

this is more of a trick or onset you can use to get above that particular spot.

Yes, Jens is referring to what we would all identify as an onset Jon. He has a special onset, thing he does that helps him to get into a position that helps him to do that. 

In The Four Pillars of Singing, there is a work out that is designed for this as well and it is not surprising to notice that it centers around a very light, open glottal, onset... its like a very light W&R onset. Its called "Extreme Scream Pitch Training (ESD)".  Review the video demonstration of it in your copy of  Pillars.  

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