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How low can you go? (+ other questions)

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muffinhead

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I can reliably phonate F2, my lowest ever was probably a C2. At that point it was not loud at all and not really effective when singing. Should the quality of lower notes be a better indicator of voice type than high notes? The other day my vocal teacher commented I was a tenor, based on my speaking voice (not quite sure I agree with using that method to classify voice type). Nevertheless, it got me thinking. When shifting pitches, sliding or stepping down below A2 is pretty difficult for me, in that I lose a lot of volume. So, would you say that, based on my lack of power in lower chest, I would classically be called a tenor?

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Yes, and I think it would be the way. Having your vocal teacher assess you, rather than yourself defining you or even us defining. Having a vocal teacher define you is a exactly what you should do and I don't know why others would say not to do.

And yes, you are are tenor, in my totally layman understanding, by where the power band of your voice is.

Where is the easiest and most expressive part of your voice and more important than the goshdarn, stinking range question, how does your voice sound in that area? And yes, tenors can croak a low note and it is out of control. Every singer has a dynamic range and an artistic range. They dynamic range is the total range of noise that can be emitted from your body without regard to volume or quality of note. I could pass gas, one of those green clouds that ensures that evil exists, the very angel of death and if it happens to make a noise, that is part of my dynamic range. If it is silent (we call those SBDs, Silent, But Deadly) that silence might be considered part of the dynamic range. But let us discount the SBD for total range of sound but definitely do not discount it in regards to how lethal a singer can be. Flatulence is like a gun. Never assume it is not loaded.

Inside that dynamic range is the artistic range. This is the area where you have greatest control over volume, articulation, tone.

According to Dave, one of the first experts to join this forum a long time ago and major contributor of the expert articles, A tenor can have a large dynamic range. A tenor, even a light tenor, can croak down to an E2 and still be a light tenor. So, the sound of the singer reaching that low note in the dynamic range and anything between that and C3 is not of baritone quality nor has the singer magically become a baritone just because he is making noise in this region. He is still a tenor, but singing outside of the artistic range, nominally C3 to C5, maybe a little higher if he is leggiero.

I managed an E2 once. I did a cover of "Silent Lucidity." The bottom note on the word "life" in the phrase "someone close to you leaving the game of life ..." that is an E2. I did it. And, like John Lennon said, I "put some ketchup on it." Just that part of the lyric has a volume boost and a bass-heavy EQ on it and I was literally lips to pop filter, nearly kissing the mic. Total stinking cheat and I can get away with it because it is a recording and recording is not live singing.

Another time, I did a Johnny Cash inspired version of "Hurt" by NIN and I started a wave here, as it were, with others joining and mostly doing the Trent Reznor (original) version. People just like some of the tones in my voice in it's lowest end.

My low end is not strong. It sound wooly or dusty to me, and maybe that is what people like. Some of the laser-like focus I can get high might give others a headache.

But you, you are a tenor.

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The ability to produce a specific low frequency provides no use in discerning the nature of your voice.  However, what does help discern the nature of your voice is how you produce said low frequencies.  Are they truly resonant?  Easy?  Are you reaching at all?  

I don't know many middle placed voices or higher (high baritones/tenors if you want to use those terms) who can croon out a steady and resonant E2 but I know a lot of higher and middle voiced people (myself included) that can croak those notes out O.K.-ly...  But really, record your E2 and compare it to something as profoundly resonant and bassy like this and you can see the true discrepancy that separates a higher placed male vs a lower placed one:

Fun fact: Paul McCartney himself has a very solid A1 in "The Girl Is Mine" despite being known for his light and high, effortless tenor voice.  Timestamp here:

Does this make Paul a bass or baritone?  Nahhh.. probably just comes from being near his fourties and smoking a pack of cigarettes a day for 20 years. :P 

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I do think that it is often easier to classify voices based on their low notes as opposed to the passaggio location. Just because the passaggio can be shifted around and can change with volume.

Here is a really nice comparison: tenor vs. baritone. Listen to the G2 (2:48 in the video) and how resonant it sounds on the baritone compared to the tenor who even struggles a little to keep the note stable. That resonance the baritone gets down there (that "ringing", powerful tone) is just impossible for a higher voice to produce.

Pretty similar for bass vs. baritone. A bass can produce such a powerful tone on an E2 usually.

 

 

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Timbre is indeed much more reliable than using range. Its all about timbre.

Without training and knowing how to stay relaxed you could use emission tension and sing lower than your tessitura.

Without full projection and imposition you will have varying positions of the voice. For example on bennys video where the first singer uses a very high placement and barely opens the mouth while the second is using a heavier position  for chest (which is how it should be).

 

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I don't know. My voice is breathy, so when I hit A2 it's already very weak. It's the same for high notes, they have breathiness so won't sound good. I have 1 octave of bad sounding voice. hahaha Though it seems I'm a kind of low tenor, with passaggio between C-F. However when my chords are touching I can sing strong A2 and G2 maybe.

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30 minutes ago, lucianob said:

I don't know. My voice is breathy, so when I hit A2 it's already very weak. It's the same for high notes, they have breathiness so won't sound good. I have 1 octave of bad sounding voice. hahaha Though it seems I'm a kind of low tenor, with passaggio between C-F. However when my chords are touching I can sing strong A2 and G2 maybe.

The point in training is to make your vocal cords(controlling muscles) stronger to keep that compression(vocal cords touching) when singing higher and lower. To remove the Breathiness..............Twang helps keep the vocal folds together........Support helps keep the vocal folds together.

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3 hours ago, lucianob said:

I don't know. My voice is breathy, so when I hit A2 it's already very weak. It's the same for high notes, they have breathiness so won't sound good. I have 1 octave of bad sounding voice. hahaha Though it seems I'm a kind of low tenor, with passaggio between C-F. However when my chords are touching I can sing strong A2 and G2 maybe.

pretty much every living human male has a passaggio between C(4?) and F(4?) lol 

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I can barely sing below A2 and I am not sure if I am a tenor or a baritone (probably somewhere in the middle)... I think lowest I have ever hit is E2-F2 in the morning. C2 is rather extreme for a tenor, but it's not like it hasn't been done. PelleK seems to pull those notes off regularly and his tenor tone is unmistakable.

Anyway, as with almost anything, there is quite a bit of difference on what can be done and what actually sounds good.

The tenor/baritone classification also depends on the "heaviness" of your voice among all else. Tenor sounds thinner than Baritone... I believe the passaggio may be a better indicator (although even that is individual according to many) than the lowest note you can sing.

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About weight, that guy from Manowar, they say he is a bariton. Anyway, my voice is heavier* than his, and I am sure I a tenor. 

* and I try to take this weight away. I started mimicking Bruce Dickinson's voice and got a bad habit of making my voice heavy, so...

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   I usually speak around G2. This is at the bottom of my normal singing range. However I have "reached" A1 by matching the frequency of a closed phase of a fry sound A2 to the point of A1 becoming the dominant sound. once that frequency has been matched the folds will lock onto the new vibration and the lower frequency will be the fundamental tone.

    I have not tried to develop this in any way, it is just a thing I do every now and then to see if I still can. Other than that I can sing E2 but it is quiet.

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It is not about what your lowest note is, it is about the lowest note you can produce with a certain tone. That tone needs to be strong and balanced, it should not be breathy and should have a "ring" and "shimmer" to it. Should also sound free and floating. In the video I posted you can easily hear the tenor having some trouble on the G2 and being on the edge of getting airy and losing compression. I would guess his tessitura actually starts a bit higher, like on A2 or B2.

PelleK uses a different approach. He "forces" his low notes, kind of like Felipe mentioned, to go lower than his tessitura. It is easily audible on this song in the beginning that he pushes his voice down there (using medial compression). He does not have a ringing and floating sound down there. He has great medial compression and if used correctly with good support you can get away forcing the low notes using it.

Being a bass, the lowest note on which I can produce that "certain sound" personally is an E2. In the high range of course my passaggio is also lower than that of a baritone. It is in the C4/D4 area.

Using the technique MDEW mentioned I go down to something like C1. But it is not really something I would use in singing, although I sometimes sing in the G1-B1 area using a similar technique as PelleK.

Excessive medial compression is also the technique you can use in the high range to stretch your full voice further beyond the point where you "normally" would register into M2.

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Quote

he point in training is to make your vocal cords(controlling muscles) stronger to keep that compression(vocal cords touching) when singing higher and lower. To remove the Breathiness..............Twang helps keep the vocal folds together........Support helps keep the vocal folds together.

Is there any actual evidence that the vocal muscles (TA, CT, etc...) are getting stronger with training? Or is it (as I like to think) more a matter of coordination/efficiency and muscle memory? Has there been any studies on the subject?

 

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3 hours ago, Sexy Beast said:

Is there any actual evidence that the vocal muscles (TA, CT, etc...) are getting stronger with training? Or is it (as I like to think) more a matter of coordination/efficiency and muscle memory? Has there been any studies on the subject?

 


I would say, most definitely they do, or Ken tamplin school of singing would not exist...

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  • 1 month later...

My lowest comfortable/resonant notes are around C2-D2, although I have already dipped down to a melodic G1 in one song. When singing up, my voice lightens a lot beginning at C#4 (I guess that's my passaggio).

2 and a half years ago my choir conductor said I was a baritone tending to bass. I left the choir and my voice still keeps getting lower year after year due to heavy smoking.

My voice is pretty similar to the vocalist's in the below video (strong lows but a lighter mid/top).


 

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  • 7 years later...

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