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leithinkjesusiscool

Informal way of learning...

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Hi!

Can you tell me how people like Muddy Waters or Johnny Cash could learn how to sing without formal lessons? What kind of special informal thing helped them? When I watch documentaries it's like they just did it and it was extremely easy for then but I don't think that's really the truth.

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no social media. They were allowed to have off nights! lol.
Also, remember, they wrote their own songs well within their range, they could feel where their voice naturally wanted to go... they wrote their songs around that. As for pitch... who knows. I think pitch is natural to a certain degree. Some people are just way more in tune than others... no matter how awful their technique. I think Roy Orbison was one of the guys that Elvis looked up to... i wouldn't be suprised if that was the case for Cash as well... i was going somewhere with that rant. something about writing outside what most would consider a crooners range.

Sometimes, I think cover artists/tribute bands/showband singers are the true virtuosos of voice. Having to sing 3 hour shows from Journey to Ac/dc to elvis for a few nights in a row. Artistry, not so much but it would take a hell of a command of the vocal instrument to pull that off. whatever... I'm ranting. Apologies.

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1 hour ago, kirkovin84 said:

no social media. They were allowed to have off nights! lol.
Also, remember, they wrote their own songs well within their range, they could feel where their voice naturally wanted to go... they wrote their songs around that. As for pitch... who knows. I think pitch is natural to a certain degree. Some people are just way more in tune than others... no matter how awful their technique. I think Roy Orbison was one of the guys that Elvis looked up to... i wouldn't be suprised if that was the case for Cash as well... i was going somewhere with that rant. something about writing outside what most would consider a crooners range.

Sometimes, I think cover artists/tribute bands/showband singers are the true virtuosos of voice. Having to sing 3 hour shows from Journey to Ac/dc to elvis for a few nights in a row. Artistry, not so much but it would take a hell of a command of the vocal instrument to pull that off. whatever... I'm ranting. Apologies.

I totaly disagree. Copy something that already supergood like journey or acdc is much much easyer then comming up with something of your own and be original. Specially if we talk about stuff in the class of journey and acdc. 

Everyone keeps say its easy to just be yourself and that there is only you and your unique. bah sure on a biological level, but aside from that it's just fairytails. 

Its very similar to extremesports, some tricks are impossible. Then all off a sudden someone does it, and then everyone starts doing them

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13 hours ago, leithinkjesusiscool said:

Can you tell me how people like Muddy Waters or Johnny Cash could learn how to sing without formal lessons?

With all due respect to Muddy Waters and Johnny Cash... I think Johnny Cash is super cool. Love the songs... but,... you don't need formal lessons to sing like that. It is comparatively easy. In fact it is EXCEEDINGLY easy. I never had to take a lesson to sing a Johnny Cash song.

11 hours ago, Jens said:

Copy something that already supergood like journey or acdc is much much easyer then comming up with something of your own and be original. Specially if we talk about stuff in the class o

Of course. It is arguably a completely different art form, because you have to write lyrics and come up with melody. Who here has tried that? It's a different ball game.

 

As a general rule. Singing in the chest voice is intuitive and easy for most people. Bridging the vocal break and singing in the head voice with connectivity is comparatively NOT easy. If your a chest voice singer, no problem. If you want to have range and get above your break, plan on becoming a student of how the voice works, getting a teacher and training content. PERIOD. There definitely is no shortcut to singing in the head voice.

 

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There are famous singers who learned intuitively how to sing in a connected voice anobe their bridge. Freddy Mercury is often brought up to make this point. However, Freddy also would lose his voice half way through each concert, which meant he only got so far with self-learning and still had some major issues affecting his voice. Sia is another example. she also loses her voice half way through a concert. 

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20 hours ago, Jens said:

I totaly disagree. Copy something that already supergood like journey or acdc is much much easyer then comming up with something of your own and be original. Specially if we talk about stuff in the class of journey and acdc. 

Everyone keeps say its easy to just be yourself and that there is only you and your unique. bah sure on a biological level, but aside from that it's just fairytails. 

Its very similar to extremesports, some tricks are impossible. Then all off a sudden someone does it, and then everyone starts doing them

Guys like Steve Perry are a mystery to me. Same with Brian Johnston... I'm always impressed with guys being able to pull that off. Say more than a songwriter than Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen. Virtuosic and gifted song writing for sure, singing... not so much. Like Robert said. completely different art form. Both are amazing. some singers though... like Lou Gramm, sing the (imo) some of lamest lyrics but my god... that voice just sells it... he really wants to know what love is... and he wants you to show him!. or Bruce Dickenson singing about dragons/fighter jets/cowboys and indians, magic. They just carry the song. I believe there's certainly a level of virtuosity and command involved in singing those songs in cover bands... Then again, i don't know the tricks. maybe it's easy and they're all singing in some type of falsetto.

Again, Just my opinion.

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11 hours ago, Draven Grey said:

There are famous singers who learned intuitively how to sing in a connected voice anobe their bridge. Freddy Mercury is often brought up to make this point. However, Freddy also would lose his voice half way through each concert, which meant he only got so far with self-learning and still had some major issues affecting his voice. Sia is another example. she also loses her voice half way through a concert. 

You just can't mention Sia without thinking of ice cream. 

Anyway, Freddie Mercury lost his voice mostly during his later years when performing live. I guess  the voice can get hurt later in life even if you don't feel it now.  I'm not sure this is due to not taking formal lessons as many don't kill their voices like Freddie. 

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11 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

With all due respect to Muddy Waters and Johnny Cash... I think Johnny Cash is super cool. Love the songs... but,... you don't need formal lessons to sing like that. It is comparatively easy. In fact it is EXCEEDINGLY easy. I never had to take a lesson to sing a Johnny Cash song.

Of course. It is arguably a completely different art form, because you have to write lyrics and come up with melody. Who here has tried that? It's a different ball game.

 

As a general rule. Singing in the chest voice is intuitive and easy for most people. Bridging the vocal break and singing in the head voice with connectivity is comparatively NOT easy. If your a chest voice singer, no problem. If you want to have range and get above your break, plan on becoming a student of how the voice works, getting a teacher and training content. PERIOD. There definitely is no shortcut to singing in the head voice.

 

So you can sing that low octave Johnny Cash used for I walk the line. One octave lower than most guys can sing. Is this really easy?

Why not upload a sobg and give us an example of your Johnny Cash voice? I don't trust you untill you prove it 

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Special informal thing... lol

They sang and, for them, it was enough.

If its enough for you, great. If not, the special things that are known are what people call "technique".

I hope it helps

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2 hours ago, leithinkjesusiscool said:

So you can sing that low octave Johnny Cash used for I walk the line. One octave lower than most guys can sing. Is this really easy?

Why not upload a sobg and give us an example of your Johnny Cash voice? I don't trust you untill you prove it 

I'm on the baritone spectrum, cash is easy for me. Here's something similar and it makes the point. I didn't train to sing this or do multiple takes. It was one take and super easy for me. I suspect it would be for most capable singers. The point isn't to show off , but to point out, low singing is easy and intuitive, comparatively speaking for everyone.

As for trust and proving anything to you. Trust that our patience for disrespect in here, will prove to be unsuccessful for you.

Be cool. 

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4 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

I'm on the baritone spectrum, cash is easy for me. Here's something similar and it makes the point. I didn't train to sing this or do multiple takes. It was one take and super easy for me. I suspect it would be for most capable singers. The point isn't to show off , but to point out, low singing is easy and intuitive, comparatively speaking for everyone.

As for trust and proving anything to you. Trust that our patience for disrespect in here, will prove to be unsuccessful for you.

Be cool. 

Very Nice.

Do you have anything with just sitting around with an acoustic guitar? You're voice sounds like it would suit it nicely, especially with a piece like this.

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Thanks Kirk.

good questions. In regards to pitch, singing low. I did nothing extra. It's as easy as breathing.

However, In regards to character, tone and getting a "country cowboy flavor" to it, there is some yarling. Yarling is one of six vocal effects taught in my training program. It is heard a lot in singers like Eddie Vedder, Layne Staley, stapp, Chris Cornell and many, many other singers. Appropriate for that Seattle 90s sound and country. You can use it in any style. It creates a bluesy, soulful vibe.

The yarl is produced by a retraction of the tongue so as to lower the amplification of partials in the third formant. The result is a mutated /r/ ishness. It's super easy.

back to the point. When I yarled in this performance I was not concious of the technical aspects , nor did I say to myself, " ok, yarl now". It was all impromptu, and only a random expression in the moment. I was just singing and having fun...

.... in part because , it is super easy for me, because it is below the bridge and in the chest voice. Ask me or anyone to sing a journey song , and your no longer walking in the park. You have to be on point and keep your eyes on the road.

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i was going to ask about the 'R'ishness. whether it was part of your speaking pattern or whether its just the way you like to sing. Thankyou for your answer

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Good performance, Robert. I can't bring myself to do Country, alhtough I'm sure most of my family would love it if I did. haha! One of my cousins is making a solid name for himself in Country. If you can do it well, it's not hard to make a living on it being from Texas. But like I said, I simply can't bringmyself to do it, not even for a one-off video.

That range is completely effortless for me as well. No thought at all put into making it happen. What I've seen with students who struggled in that range was either they needed pitch training, or, more often than not, simply needed better resonant placement - often "fixing" their voice during a lesson (at least in that range) in less than 10 minutes.

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1 hour ago, Robert Lunte said:

I'm on the baritone spectrum, cash is easy for me. Here's something similar and it makes the point. I didn't train to sing this or do multiple takes. It was one take and super easy for me. I suspect it would be for most capable singers. The point isn't to show off , but to point out, low singing is easy and intuitive, comparatively speaking for everyone.

As for trust and proving anything to you. Trust that our patience for disrespect in here, will prove to be unsuccessful for you.

Be cool. 

Somehow I got the feeling that you are a rock singer who likes the Highwaymen. I am no authority on the subject but that's what I heard. But yes you can sing. 

Yarl you say...then what about twang? 

Let's be practical here: how can a vo al coach help me sing songs like this one? You say one must simply just sing them and vocal exercices are unecassary when learning this kinda  (or maybe I missunderstood you).

 

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21 minutes ago, leithinkjesusiscool said:

Somehow I got the feeling that you are a rock singer who likes the Highwaymen.

Not sure what that means, but yes, I like to sing Rock. But I like to all kinds of good songs. Does this video not demonstrate that point? Regardless, it is my training that enables me and others with training, to sing just about any style decently. We may be inclined to sing certain styles better then others, but with training, it opens doors.

Yarling is a vocal effect as described. Twang is a physical mode, or an identified/studied physiology position of the larynx and surrounding musculature. When I am yarling in this song, I am ALSO twanging lightly at the same time. They are two different things. I have a video on YouTube that describes vocal twang and what it is.

 

27 minutes ago, leithinkjesusiscool said:

Let's be practical here: how can a vo al coach help me sing songs like this one? You say one must simply just sing them and vocal exercices are unecassary when learning this kinda  (or maybe I missunderstood you).

? But listening to you try to sing it and coaching you through the pitch, melody, interpretation, effects and all elements of musicianship and artistry. That is what vocal coaches do. If you ever get one, you'll understand. 

I did not say, "... one must simply just sing them". I also did not say, "vocal exercises are unnecessary when learning this kinda...". Did I say that? I don't see that... Any vocal training you engage in is going to help you with ANY kind of singing. So yes, my training probably helped me sing this song better. But compared to something above the bridge, its night and day.

So you got me... yes, training will help with anything. Like, walking will burn calories, so will running. Which burns more and is more work? Your splitting hairs.

Just get a program and train. BTW, my program is available for $29/mth to try out if you're on a budget.

https://thevocaliststudio.com/checkout/?product_id=140580

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1 hour ago, Draven Grey said:

Good performance, Robert. I can't bring myself to do Country, alhtough I'm sure most of my family would love it if I did. haha! One of my cousins is making a solid name for himself in Country. If you can do it well, it's not hard to make a living on it being from Texas. But like I said, I simply can't bringmyself to do it, not even for a one-off video.

That range is completely effortless for me as well. No thought at all put into making it happen. What I've seen with students who struggled in that range was either they needed pitch training, or, more often than not, simply needed better resonant placement - often "fixing" their voice during a lesson (at least in that range) in less than 10 minutes.

Thanks.

How can you not like this song? I'm not the "country singer" guy either as you know, but this song is just dope! I can identify with it. I ride a Harley, ( my horse ) and feel like an urban cowboy often times. The song doesn't have to be about a redneck cowboy. It can be any kind of cowboy. Although I did grow up in Idaho.

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Well, if got it right certain kinda singing is more natural. I can't imagine Hank Williams having learned his yodel feeling from  formal teacher. But he did have a mentor. But he might have sung solfege in hi church.

One vocal style which I find weird is the style used by guys like Jussi Björling. When he sings O helga natt it sounds  bit too much. Country music would have sounded more natural, ie if Waylon Jennings would have sung it.

I guess classical singing can be unatural sounding to me and many others. 

Are people here saying that country is more natural and nearer how we normally speak? 

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*Unnatural* all singing and even speech is.

Spoken language is technology. Even making simple sounds is an adaptation of vital systems, other functions take priority over sound on the larynx. The main role of the folds is protection of the lower airway, one of the things keeping you alive daily.

But its true that classical singing, specially on the Bel Canto era, was about twisting the knife on the wound and going against physiology as much as possible. Chiaro-Scuro, focus, appoggio, legato, there is really nothing natural about it, although the singer is expected to make it look so.

You train it to the point of becoming comfortable, as if it was a natural state, and reduce effort as much as possible but its far from that.

Country is less technical in this sense. Its still messed up because there are quite high notes way above what would be wise from the physiological perspective. But its closer to speech.

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1 hour ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Language is technology. Even making simple sounds is an adaptation of vital systems, other functions take priority over sound on the larynx.

Just for the sake of debate... I would tend to disagree on this because language is something that evolved through millions of years of biological evolution. It is a biological thing, not really an "invention" such as singing.

1 hour ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Chiaro-Scuro, focus, appoggio, legato, there is really nothing natural about it, although the singer is expected to make it look so.

Agreed. And neither is screaming at the top of your lungs in a Fates Warning song. Singing, in general, is not natural for the sake of this philosophical discussion in my view.

1 hour ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Country is less technical in this sense. Its still messed up because there are quite high notes way above what would be wise from the physiological perspective. But its closer to speech.

Yep.

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4 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Just for the sake of debate... I would tend to disagree on this because language is something that evolved through millions of years of biological evolution. It is a biological thing, not really an "invention" such as singing.

Indeed! I should have specified the modern languages as we use, in special spoken language. Thank you!

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