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Danielformica

Strengthening Registers or Avoiding Weak Registers

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Hey guys I haven't made video's in a while I have had some major back issues (20 years) that really has made it tough to gig the last few months and sing and work. But I had Emergency back surgery Friday and I'm looking forward to a very quick recovery. So my teaching is on hold for a couple weeks. So while I was hopped up on pain pills I decided to make a vid lol. Hope you like it.. see ya soon

peace

 

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Happy Anniversary Daniel to you and your lovely wife!  nice vid, good perspective on Perry's changing voice. 

Take your time healing! Get off those pain pills asap!!

peace,

k

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Dan, honestly... I did not get your point?

Steve Perry sang the lyric "you" slightly more modified to "yao" in later years, or at least in these two moments... and because of that it means or proves what?  Was that an example of what you are advocating or not advocating? What is the lesson?

Either way, to my ears, both "you"s sounded just fine. The earlier one that was more true to the language vowel and the later one that was slightly more modified ( something you seem to not be an advocate of BTW ), both sounded great. So what is the point?

BTW, to "edge" or "curb" your vowels has nothing to do with how Steve Perry comparatively sang an "oo" in two separate videos and neither does dampening or lowering your larynx. These are techniques that address entirely different discussions and issues for singers and teachers.

For the record, I am a big advocate of training and singing toward language sound colors/vowels when singing. Not only is it great to have that option, but it also works motor skills and articulations that can otherwise be missed causing a weak voice. 

I agree with your sentiments about Adele. The perfect opportunity for Monday morning quarterbacks to get in there and judge her and make comment about things they don't know what they are talking about... But that is what the internet has become. 

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12 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

.. I did not get your point?

I won't put words in Dan's mouth but I was focused on the change of the timbre of his voice over the years. I think I noticed the most change through the 80's.

a raspier, slightly more husky sound quality.  Quite obvious if you listen to any track of the first few Journey albums. Also, live performances were being sung tuned down from the album key.

I'm not hearing a vowel issue but not sure how keen i am on that issue anyway.

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Kevin,

I'm not hearing any vowel issue whatsoever. I hear two different sound colors / vowels that are ever so slightly different but again, what is the point? Is the point, ... Steve Perry grew more tired as years went on? Yes, he did. I have heard inside stories about the touring schedule and the relentless slave driving attitude from Neal Schon that never let the man rest contributing to his departure. Steve Perry got tired. Is that the point? 

What does that have to do with "edging", "curbing" and anchoring the larynx? That's what I want to know because there was clearly a sort of smug belittling tone toward these ideas.

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Just to clarify, I think I understand what Dan means here.

Its more of an example in practice of how to handle issues, which sooner or later will happen when dealing with this kind of song. So its the importance of having options, how the same passage can be done in different manners and the importance of having your registration down instead of being restricted to a single way of performing. The reason why you need to know what is your head voice, chest, mix, etc.

Being restricted to a single approach, and finding it is not working on a given day during a performance is quite scary if you don't have options!

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30 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Dan, honestly... I did not get your point?

Steve Perry sang the lyric "you" slightly more modified to "yao" in later years and because of that it means or proves what?  Was that an example of what you are advocating or not advocating? Either way, to my ears, both "you"s sounded just fine. The earlier one that was more true to the language vowel and the later one that was slightly more modified ( something you seem to not be an advocate of over and over again), both sounded great. Again, what is the point?

BTW, to "edge" or "curb" your vowels has nothing to do with how Steve Perry sings an "oo" and neither does dampening or lowering your larynx. These are techniques that address entirely different discussions and issues for singers.

For the record, I am a big advocate of training and singing toward language sound colors/vowels when singing. Not only is it great to have that option, but it also works motor skills and articulations that can otherwise be missed causing a weak voice. 

I totally agree with your sentiments about Adele. The perfect opportunity for Monday morning quarterbacks to get in there and judge her and make comment about things they don't know what they are talking about... But that is what the internet has become. 

I believe it all has to do with the 'changing of the gears' analogy Daniel mentioned. 'YAHOUoo' forces the voice into the wrong acoustical register... sure, you can drive in second but tis going to grind your car into the ground after only a few miles. 'YAHOU', on that particular note sounds shouty, whereas, paired down into Y(ew) it, it would be in the correct gear, easier on the throat and easier to support. 

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27 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

 

Dan, honestly... I did not get your point?

 

its fairly simple the pitch and vowel you sing equals the register in which you are singing. thinking of it like a car second gear is lower than third  however if you keep driving in 2nd and don't go to third when its in the high rpm it gets tired and your pushing it.  here sing an uh vowel loud on a D4 now sing a pure oo not ouh or ow but oo like pool go back and fourth and you will feel the register and you will see how because its the beginning of mixed voice you don't need a lot of breath pressure you can use less than the uh which is in second gear so it needs more rpm.lol

 

anyone please Skype me I'm bored in bed haha I would love to discuss

 

now we know that if you stay in one register in the beginning of the register the vowels are closed as you ascend in pitch the vowels broaden if you are staying in the register you began in. However if you constantly do this you can only go so broad and wide , the register above say 3rd gear doesn't get exercised or used and so it weakens . this is why there are holes in certain peoples singing. You have heard people say "I can sing high c but my e4 to a4 sucks" there lies the hole.there is the weakened register. Now most students and pros I come across when I ask them to sing an oo vowel or ee on f#4 g4 e4  A4 have a hard time because they are told to make that vowel instead of oo make it ow as in owl or ee they do eh as in fed. this weakens the register that is there to work on.  I took with the same coach Steve studied with, after a year of serious study he had me doing the same things, at this point I was 40 and he avoided the mixed voice the real mixed voice which would allow me to sing ee or oo on e4-to almost c5 needles to say I almost gave up singing because it was getting worse not better. . luckily through common sense and Alex kariotis I strengthened these weak registers over time (still am) not easy

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11 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

I'm not hearing any vowel issue whatsoever.

if I said to you in my regular speaking voice "hey weh shaaud meht aahp sometime" you would think I had some strange vowels no? you might not even understand me . well good technical singing should be understandable not wonky and weird. style like not understanding mick Jagger is another story. Steve went to those vowels because learning and practicing the way he instinctively knew before was gonna take time this was an easier way for him at the time to reach the notes. however over time those RPM pay a toll on the voice . I felt it within a couple years....

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3 minutes ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

the importance of having your registration down instead of being restricted to a single way of performing.

Ok.

4 minutes ago, kirkovin84 said:

'YAHOU', on that particular note sounds shouty, whereas, paired down into Y(ew) it, it would be in the correct gear, easier on the throat and easier to support. 

I follow the logic, but the fact is, the the more open vowel color is easier to sing, not more difficult. The two would have different resonance however. 

 

Dan are you advocating more pull on the narrowed positions or to relax the pull and open up?

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18 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

What does that have to do with "edging", "curbing" and anchoring the larynx? That's what I want to know because there was clearly a sort of smug belittling tone toward these ideas.

To me, it sounded more like frustration. It's like that little kid running around calling it claw and point... just call the vowel, the vowel.

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3 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

if I said to you in my regular speaking voice "hey weh shaaud meht aahp sometime" you would think I had some strange vowels no? you might not even understand me . well good technical singing should be understandable not wonky and weird. style like not understanding mick Jagger is another story. Steve went to those vowels because learning and practicing the way he instinctively knew before was gonna take time this was an easier way for him at the time to reach the notes. however over time those RPM pay a toll on the voice . I felt it within a couple years....

Dan that is all good, but could stand to be explained a bit more clearly. What I gather is that you are advocating more narrowed, language vowels and colors when singing high, as a general rule and if you don't train it, your voice will weaken and have wonky holes in it. I couldn't agree more.

... But why did you mention "edging", "curbing" and larynx dampening in your video? It seemed to be out of context and unrelated. It also seemed to be a bit smug in tone. 

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16 minutes ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Just to clarify, I think I understand what Dan means here.

Its more of an example in practice of how to handle issues, which sooner or later will happen when dealing with this kind of song. So its the importance of having options, how the same passage can be done in different manners and the importance of having your registration down instead of being restricted to a single way of performing. The reason why you need to know what is your head voice, chest, mix, etc.

Being restricted to a single approach, and finding it is not working on a given day during a performance is quite scary if you don't have options!

bingo

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3 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Ok.

I follow the logic, but the fact is, the the more open vowel color is easier to sing, not more difficult. The two would have different resonance however. 

 

Dan are you advocating more pull on the narrowed positions or to relax the pull and open up?

but maybe it's only easier to sing because that's your experience with the registers. Daniel mentions Sam Cooke in that video as well. He pretty much exclusively hung his voice out between E4-A4. That Bb4 in 'Change is Gonna Come' sounds like the easiest note in the world when he sings 'Toooooooo hard livin'

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4 minutes ago, kirkovin84 said:

To me, it sounded more like frustration. It's like that little kid running around calling it claw and point... just call the vowel, the vowel.

I have no idea what curbing or edging is my guess its lawn work near your driveway so the weeds don't over grow

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3 minutes ago, kirkovin84 said:

To me, it sounded more like frustration. It's like that little kid running around calling it claw and point... just call the vowel, the vowel.

Again, if you really don't know what the purpose is for the terms "edging" and "curbing", then hold up. "edging" and "curbing" do not mean, "vowel". And neither does larynx dampening. Just stick with what you really know and understand. Refrain from haphazardly dissing ideas that you don't really fully understand. 

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4 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

But why did you mention "edging", "curbing" and larynx dampening in your video? It seemed to be out of context and unrelated. It also seemed to be a bit smug in tone. 

I was high on pain meds and those terms always come up in conversation. Im strictly dealing with registration through vowels.

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5 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Just stick with what you really know and understand. Refrain from haphazardly dissing ideas that you don't really fully understand. 

I read the cvt book years ago and have 4 students that studied it and graduated I understand I was just saying thats not how I'm looking at it. I'm looking at it like I said strengthening the weakened register 

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5 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Again, if you really don't know what the purpose is for the terms "edging" and "curbing", then hold up. "edging" and "curbing" do not mean, "vowel". And neither does larynx dampening. Just stick with what you really know and understand. Refrain from haphazardly dissing ideas that you don't really fully understand. 

I didn't 'diss' the ideas... i've read CVT... I still cant sing. lol.

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3 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

I have no idea what curbing or edging is my guess its lawn work near your driveway so the weeds don't over grow

BINGO. Then don't belittle it when you don't know what it means or its application. That is my point. 

Your main point about keeping true to the language vowels and doing the work that needs to be done to maintain that "best practice" approach is great. But jabbing totally unrelated concepts that you admit that you don't know anything about is careless.

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3 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

BINGO. Then don't belittle it when you don't know what it means or its application. That is my point. 

Your main point about keeping true to the language vowels and doing the work that needs to be done to maintain that "best practice" approach is great. But jabbing totally unrelated concepts that you admit that you don't know anything about is careless.

I was kidding haha its a joke. 

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3 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

Im strictly dealing with registration through vowels.

Which is an awesome point and an important conversation I am glad your bringing up. But blindly leading people that trust your opinion, into thinking that "edging", "curbing" and larynx dampening are somehow not important or worthy of being dismissed, when you admit that you don't understand their full meaning or application is a mistake. 

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Just now, Robert Lunte said:

Which is an awesome point and an important conversation I am glad your bringing up. But blindly leading people that trust your opinion, into thinking that "edging", "curbing" and larynx dampening are somehow not important or worthy of being dismissed, when you admit that you don't understand their full meaning or application is a mistake. 

ok let me clear that it was a joke. I fully understand the meanings(I said I have 4 students now that study CVT and besides buying the book 5-6 years ago and being involved in vocal pedagogy for a long time) but I did not want discussions on this going there as many students don't know the meaning . so I wanted to use words like vowels which we all universally understand. is that more clear

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