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So many Programs, so much confusion...

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Billy Budapest
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Hi,

First post, though I've lurked over the years. cool forum.

So I'm 48 and have had lessons off and on since I was a kid, and am in lessons now. Even with all of those lessons, I still struggle with endurance and some "money notes".

I've done lessons with David Kyle as a kid and quite frankly, that technique wasn't for me and it actually gave me bad vocal problems so I didn't stick with him. I was with him about 6 months. I was better before I went and the way "his" singers sound to me has always been unnatural, but I thought "he was the guy", so I tried it.

I then went to another local guy in Seattle and his approach was that "Singing was extended speech"-George Peckham. He fixed me up and undid a lot of the damage that Kyle's program gave me. The damages was that on notes I'd have to push on, my voice would just break up and I couldn't get a pure tone. It was terrible. My range went away too. George helped me get rid of those problems. That took about a year and a half to unlearn some of the bad habits that I'd picked up. I kept up with that stuff and got my voice back.

That was in the 80s. I quit singing live for a few years and came back to it in about 95 and have been singing ever since. I STILL struggle with endurance. I tried many vocal programs: Singing Success, Seth Riggs, Find your Voice, etc. These would be okay for exercise, but not much help for vocal stamina. It could get quite confusing without some proper guidance as well. I also found, the more I worked with the programs, the more problems I'd have singing live.

So, after years of trying to find my way to higher range and stamina, I finally got myself into a teacher again in Seattle, Susan Carr (she did the Art of Screaming DVD-though I'm not a screamer). She's all about Bel Canto and has really helped me with a lot of things. I've always had good range, when I could depend on my voice, but there are still times where I struggle. I can get pretty low and I have a 5-octave range, but there are those spots in the "middle" where I struggle. I can hit Bs and Cs, but not over and over and over. For example, Journey's "Don't Stop Believing" that B money note in there is really difficult to do over and over within that song, so it's not one I'd add to my night of tunes.

I'm pretty whimpy in the spot between chest and head voice and I'm looking for a way to get power out of that area of my voice consistently. I seem to have a very Fragile voice too. I can sing 4 hour shows 2 nights in a row and even 3, but after that, I need a few days off or my high notes are are back to being difficult and broken up.

After trying different teachers and different programs, I'm finding that there doesn't seem to be a "sure fire" way of singing every single night without problems. I've heard forever "oh, if you use the right technique, you can singe every night"- MAYBE if you're singing low songs, but I'm singing Queen, McCartney, Styx, Bon Jovi and other stuff that's pretty high. Journey is not something that I can do very well (most of them) these days, but it'd be nice.

I find that I get completely frustrated trying to find "the magic formula" for longevity, stamina, and range. The more I work on a program, the more difficult things seem to get. Sometimes it's better if I just 'let everything go' and just sing rather than thinking about what "method" I need to use. I also find that stress can make even my low notes break up.

I'm still taking lessons and hopefully, that'll help, I'm on my 2nd year. I also have reflux and take Prevacid every day for it. Whatta hassle...

I've rambled here, but man, I get so tired of "chasing it"

However, now I find myself thinking about the Ken Tamplin program, so apparently, I'm still ready to try anything...

Do you guys ever get so frustrated with your voice (not to mention band members, agents, club owners, etc.) where you just want to give up??

Gracias, BB

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BB: Welcome to the Forum, and thanks for the interesting post.

Looking back at the history you recount, what you wrote about the lit you sing, and the vocal challenges you perceive with your current schedule, I certainly can relate!

Approaches that work, i.e., which build range, tone quality, consistency, endurance, etc., are based, deliberately or unknowingly, on the principles of bodily physiology and acoustics of the voice. You have experienced this kind of progress personally, and also had experiences that did not work for you. I don't think there is a person on this forum that has not had both of these in their own singing, however accomplished they may be.

IMO, you will not know what your endurance ultimately can become until you've ironed out the technique issues you mention in the place 'between the chest and head voice'... what has been historically called 'the passaggio'. Hopefully, you and your teacher are building a stronger technique in this area.

Its important to address this, as singing uses laryngeal muscles energetically, and when the vocal production is sometimes not quite right, it is more wearing on the singer, and takes longer to recover from. I think that may be part of your situation now, even as accomplished as you are. Your current vocal rest schedule is not quite able to keep up with your performance schedule with your current technique and vocal-maintenance routine.

So, how to approach this? Go through the usual list of things that you've heard singers and teachers recommend for body and vocal maintenance when not singing, and when doing a gig. Make a list of what you know to do, and then self-assess. Are you getting enough sleep, hydration, warmup-warmdown, regular exercise, etc. Onstage, are you planning your sets with instrumental sections that let you have a small break? Even something as simple as 1/2 hour extra sleep every day, or a nap, can make the difference in 'maintaining'.

Then, when you've strengthened the passaggio, then take your endurance inventory again, and make adjustments as you need to. The challenges will never go away, in fact, it will get more challenging... as endurance and stamina decline slowly during life. Be real with that, but also know that you can make a lot of music along the way.

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Thanks for replying Steven- I think I may be at the "... in fact it will get more challenging" part of things.

I guess that I've heard over the years "oh, if you do X you can sing every night and every day without problems". I've heard that forever. I no longer believe in that, especially during the winter months where things seem to get twice as hard for me (no sinus issues or anything).

It's definitely a thing that weighs heavily on me. I'm sure that stress is part of it. Just some times, you cannot find that 'sweet spot' of your voice and you work twice as hard because you're having all these inner mind issues, as well as environmental things..., etc.

I HAVE had nights where I went up and down and around my range with little or no effort and little or no sensation even. That is what I'd love to get to each night, but I've only had it a few times in my over 30 years of performing.

Like I said, it really weighs on you after awhile - "Why isn't it consistent??", etc.

It's like being on an Easter Egg Hunt sometimes.

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Thanks for replying Steven- I think I may be at the "... in fact it will get more challenging" part of things.

I guess that I've heard over the years "oh, if you do X you can sing every night and every day without problems". I've heard that forever. I no longer believe in that, especially during the winter months where things seem to get twice as hard for me (no sinus issues or anything).

It's definitely a thing that weighs heavily on me. I'm sure that stress is part of it. Just some times, you cannot find that 'sweet spot' of your voice and you work twice as hard because you're having all these inner mind issues, as well as environmental things..., etc.

I HAVE had nights where I went up and down and around my range with little or no effort and little or no sensation even. That is what I'd love to get to each night, but I've only had it a few times in my over 30 years of performing.

Like I said, it really weighs on you after awhile - "Why isn't it consistent??", etc.

It's like being on an Easter Egg Hunt sometimes.

hey bill, buddy, welcome to the club!!

please, let me be another guy to tell you you are not alone... the whole thing can leave you frustrated as a m.f., because you're probably a perfectionist, and there's just no such thing as perfection in singing. just when i think i'm getting something, the next day, or even the next few hours later i'm full of phegm, out of nowhere, or i hit a note with such ease one day, and the next i'm praying to god i can do it again.

i drink water, take reflux meds, eat well, all that stuff and still inconsistencies abound. so the way i get through it is i look at it like from now till the end i just want to be the best i can be and at 57 i started with vocal technique late because i was too naive and thought it only applied to opera singers.

i wish i could go for one-on-one lessons but can't afford it. i also wish i could ask a guy like lou gramm, "how the hell did you do this or that" was it this or that? but as we all know, that isn't likely to happen.

so strap yourself in and try to enjoy the ride...lol!!!

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Thanks VIDEOHERE. "Perfectionist" - yup, most definitely. Just seems like it shouldn't be as difficult as it is. THEN you get these Freaks of Nature that're 5 years old singing on America's Got Talent or whatever and you're going "Something is missing here....".

Bummer about starting late in technique. I think I started early enough, but maybe ... tried to hard or something. Some of it sunk in, other stuff didn't- AND maybe my vocal apparatus is not the norm. It just seems like the voice is CONSTANTLY delicate.

As for Lou Graham- is he singing back the way he was? I saw him with Journey about 10 years ago and he'd had some kind of medical problem (brain tumor or something) and he'd lost all of his range. The new guy they have is good too.

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Thanks VIDEOHERE. "Perfectionist" - yup, most definitely. Just seems like it shouldn't be as difficult as it is. THEN you get these Freaks of Nature that're 5 years old singing on America's Got Talent or whatever and you're going "Something is missing here....".

Bummer about starting late in technique. I think I started early enough, but maybe ... tried to hard or something. Some of it sunk in, other stuff didn't- AND maybe my vocal apparatus is not the norm. It just seems like the voice is CONSTANTLY delicate.

As for Lou Graham- is he singing back the way he was? I saw him with Journey about 10 years ago and he'd had some kind of medical problem (brain tumor or something) and he'd lost all of his range. The new guy they have is good too.

i guess it depends on what you mean by difficult..i think it can definitely be strenuous (not to mean straining) but i think it's physically demanding at times....all depends on the song or the genre.

lou is bouncing back slowly but surely, but still has several medical issues... he talked of retiring, but seems to have changed his mind. he's lower now, but is more controlled and powerful as of late.

kelly hansen was a good choice to replace him....but the posts i see now have the band sounding too popish and less punchy. he's doing most songs 1/2 step lower and is a more restrained vocalist than lou.

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After seeing Foreigner's concert at the Ryman in Nashville on HDNet, I'm completely sold on Kelly Hansen. It's extremely rare that I embrace a legendary singer's replacement, but he's a great fit.

I remember him from a band called Hurricane back in the 80's. I thought he had a huge voice, but Hurricane never really took off, so he never received any recognition.

His tone is a bit less gritty than Lou's, but I don't think Mick Jones could have made a better pick to fill such big shoes.

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I likes me some irony. It's funny that you should come here and detail what you didn't like about Kyle's program. Our benefactor, Robert Lunte, was a student of his at one time and is heir-apparent to the style of training, much of which I find value in. And I am a fan of Kyle's more famous students, such as Layne Staley (RIP) (Alice in Chains) and Geoff Tate (Queensryche.) No problem with it, I just thought it was ironic.

Just as others stand by the speech-level singing and I see speach and singing as two different activities, starting from the two basics, breathing and resonance. In fact, every single singing program out there, from bel canto schools to screamo have to start out by training you how to breathe for singing. If it were truly an extension of speach, there would be no need to change breathing. However, in a debate in another realm entirely, talking evolution and the sounds of animals (including humans) before we developed speech, humans sang. Not songs like we have to day, but they breathed, phonated, and resonated to make noise to ward off predators or warn each other. The articluation and lower volume of speech required chopping up the breath to accomodate labial and dental stops. Not to mention that "regular" breathing for activities like work (hunting, gathering) is also different than singing. Speach came after singing. So, I find fundamental flaws in the logic of speach level singing. I once got laughed at because I saw singing and dog barking as somewhat similar. A dog barks with his entire body. Throat relaxed, support from below the ribs, fold adduction, and resonance in the cavities of it's canid skull. And howls, too, watch how a dog holds his head to howl. It is to create the proper resonance for that kind of note.

But I digress. It is refreshing to hear different opinions. It helps us appreciate and sometimes amend our own views. Welcome to the forum. You will find many viewpoints here to draw from.

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Yeah, I know that Robert Lunte was a student of Kyle's and that's why I haven't posted here before, though I've lurked a lot. I actually didn't detail what I didn't like, I said his program didn't work for me and left my voice very torn up. That could've been the way I absorbed it, but I was there with him and he never said I was doing anything wrong, so... Robert does not sound like the typical Kyle student. He doesn't have that very nasally sound that a lot of his students had. Terry from Rail has it (and his once clear voice is now pretty rough, though his range is still there) and Geoff Tate while a good singer also has that Kyle nasal thing that just doesn't appeal to me. So I meant no offense about David Kyle, just that his approach didn't work for me.:)

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Good enough.

I, too, messed myself up trying to do distortion that seemed so effortless to others. And lost most of my range for about two weeks. I think I truly strained some muscles in my throat and couldn't affect the coordination. And that scared me off of it for a while. Not that I always want distortion. I have, I think, a fairly clean and ringing voice, which is fine with me. Just recently though, I learned some valuable details in how to do distortion properly and realized before that I had been going at it from the wrong direction, so to speak.

So, we all continue to learn.

My first introduction to learning how to use the voice effectively was a book entitled "How to Sing" by Graham Hewitt. And it was my mainstay for decades until finding this forum. Then, a friend here gave me the pdf version of Vendera's latest version of "Raise Your Voice." Some of the technical stuff was so subtle that I didn't get it all until a second reading. But what was more important was the nuggets of wisdom that don't have anything to do with technique.

Such as, don't try to mimick another singer, even if it is your favorite singer. Every person is different genetically. My inspiration, believe it or not, was Axl Rose but I have an easier time approaching Tate's or Dio's tone than Axl's. Not that I sound like any one of them. I like singing GnR songs though I don't sound like Axl and I refuse to try and sound like him. I just want to hit that range in my own sound and I can do that. And others can like it, or not. If they don't like it, sorry about their luck.

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same here. I don't want to sound like somebody else, but I DO want to be able to hit those notes. Yeah, Jaime's book is good and he's a good guy as well.

see, i have to disagree here...i like to sound like a lot of somebody elses (plural) lol!!!

i think it helps diversify you....jon bon jovi is great to work on your twang or singer's formant. the black artists r&b and blues artists teach you passion and sexiness (and vocal control) , chris isaak is great to play with that hollow moody, broding sound, foreigner helps me immensely with breath control and range. journey stuff while out of my range is great for bridging and moving between head and chest as is cornell's stuff. even barry white is great to delve down into the lower end of your range which i sometimes forget to do.

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I think you misunderstood me- I'd LOVE to be able to do what these singers do. But I don't want to sound just like them... well, okay, unless I can get paid huge dollars!

It's funny, I actually used to like Bon Jovi quite a bit, but man, he is THE tightest singer that I know of that's at his level of fame. If you listen to Jon's older albums, his voice was a lot more open. Somewhere along the line, he's really closed himself off and it's a sound I just don't dig at all. (Love Ritchie Sambora's playing though!)

Journey, yeah, you can't argue with Perry (or Arnel for that matter).

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I think you misunderstood me- I'd LOVE to be able to do what these singers do. But I don't want to sound just like them... well, okay, unless I can get paid huge dollars!

It's funny, I actually used to like Bon Jovi quite a bit, but man, he is THE tightest singer that I know of that's at his level of fame. If you listen to Jon's older albums, his voice was a lot more open. Somewhere along the line, he's really closed himself off and it's a sound I just don't dig at all. (Love Ritchie Sambora's playing though!)

Journey, yeah, you can't argue with Perry (or Arnel for that matter).

oh, sorry bill, do you have an example of what you mean by tight? i've read books where the authors mention his good vocal technique.

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Hi VH- Just his most recent stuff, well, since at least Crush, his vowels are super tight and nasally sounding to me (speaking of Bon Jovi, right?). I notice that he does tend to do this even more live then on the studio stuff. As an example- "It's My Life". Dig the song, but it sounds really nasally to me.

"This ain't a song for the broken hearted..." The approach he uses for the first part is just too tight sounding. When he says "...open highway" the way he says "open" is funky too, to my ears. This is all my opinion and taste, btw. I like Bon Jovi and have most of their stuff, it's just that I've noticed a different approach that he's been using in later years. Also, on one of their newer songs, "When We Were Beautiful" (which I actually like), I think the sound would be better if the vowels weren't so tight. Listen to "beautiful" in the chorus and "it" at the end of the chorus. It sounds more like "eet". "Beautiful" should sound like "Bee-ooh-t-ih-ful" not "b-EEE-ut-EEE-ful". That's just my preference. It sounds too harsh and too far away from how the word is spoken.

Jagger changes his vowels too. A lot of time, instead of saying "you" he says "Yow" and I don't dig that at all. Bon Jovi is kind of the opposite of Mick.

In "Superman Tonight", he does the same thing on the verse with "heee-ro" and "y-eeee-ooo". He relies on his "eee" spot a lot.

There are others that do it too, but it's not so "eeeeeeeeeee!" to me.

probably just my own preference.

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Wow, this is facinating... hmm? Sorry I haven't been posting more lately guys, just been very busy.

George Peckham, Susan Carr all Seattle voice teachers, as am I. Seattle actually has a legacy of great contemporary voice training and singers. Dont know why exactly, must be the weather.

While it may be true that Maestro Kyle's approach wasnt the right approach for you, in my opinion, it was not Maestro Kyle or his teachings that gave you "bad vocal problems". If you follow the routine that Maestro Kyle prescribed and practiced, you would have built a very strong resonant track, good bridging skills and unique strong and high extreme scream pitch phonations. The vocal problems came from not doing the techniques properly most likely, I cant be sure, as I cant hear what you were doing.

As a Kyle student, you would of had some recordings of your lesson, do you happen to have any of those we could listen to , so that we might know exactly what kind of phonation you were making at that time?

Im familiar with the resonation of Terry Young that you are referring to (Terry Young from "RAIL", Classic Seattle band and Kyle student that is amazing) and I agree, Terry can get some nasal like placements from time to time and I see that as unique to Terry Young. I do not hear that quality what so ever in Geoff Tate, Layne Staley, Chris Cornell, Ann Wilson, Ronnie Monroe or myself, all Maestro Kyle students.

This is Geoff Tate from Queensryche, not nasally at all... just flat out brilliant and amazing. If you come train at The Vocalist Studio with me, Ill teach you how to make phonations similar to this.

Signatures of Maestro Kyle students:

Top down phonations (masky)

Good , Round vowels and low draw dropping

Good strong twang contractions

Excellent resonant tracking between the registers

Powefull sustain

The Best ESP (extreme scream pitch) in the business... ! 8 ^ )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6a9WmfFKs8

Here is Terry Young, from "RAIL" another Kyle Student:

Terry Young has a beautiful resonance, range and vowels... very Kyle, I agree, but any nasally nuance is Terry, not Maestro Kyle. I think this sounds cool!

Here is Ann Wilson from Heart, Kyle Student:

Here is Layne Staley, HUGE Kyle student, studied for years with the Maestro:

Chris Cornell, Maestro Kyle Student:

Here is me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL2gM4WivB0

And... here is me demonstrating some upcoming TVS vocal workouts that you definately were not doing at Maestro Kyle's studio. Im performing a new workout that is coincidentally titled, "The Staley" in tribute to Layne Staley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHdBmRkAfPM

In the last three years at TVS, I have seriously incorporated vowel modification and laryngeal configuration (twang & covering) to my pedagogy. There are things that I do that are legacy Maestro Kyle such as establishing resonant track, focus on head voice development and training with amplification. But indeed, I have taken Maestro's teachings to the next evolutionary level. The techniques Im developing these days have some foundation on Maestro Kyle and but more inspiration. Mostly, its uniquely TVS. At TVS we take Maestro Kyle's resonant tracking, register bridging and head voice connectivity ideas and add, vocal mode study, laryngeal dumping, vowel modification, light mass vs medium mass phonations and new distortion techniques.

AT TVS we also train on 22 completely new and advanced vocal workouts that I developed for aggressive strengthening and coordination you'll not find anywhere else and yet we retain 11 of Maestro Kyle's workouts in our TVS program and they are all great. One of the Maestro Kyle workouts we have will help you how to learn how to scream E & G5s! If you want super high notes and range, anything Maestro Kyle is going to have you very pleased with your training. I would also like to point out that students have a responsibility to practice and to practice properly. Just because someone had problems with their vocal training experience, it most certainly does not always mean it was the teacher's fault?

Susan Carr, is a local voice teacher whom I respect a lot. One thing I like about Susan is that she leads by example and performs and gigs in Seattle. She has a jazz band and i went out to see her one night, it was good. We are friendly colleagues. Ive never seen Susan teach, but I know she is qualified. Bel Canto is a term in singing that is way over used. The true definition of what Bel Canto is, is actually controversial and often times people say they are "bel canto" to mean, they are traditional or classical teachers, but thats not really the right context of "bel canto". "Bel Canto" is NOT synonymous with "classical singing". "

Wikipedia reads as follows:

Bel canto (Bel-Canto) (Italian, "beautiful singing"), along with a number of similar constructions ("bellezze del canto"/"bell’arte del canto"), is an Italian opera term. It has several different meanings and is subject to a wide array of interpretations.[1]

The earliest use of the term "bel canto" occurred in late 17th-century Italy, when it was applied to a sophisticated model of singing that was evolving there among practitioners of operatic and sacred music. The term did not become fairly widely used, however, until the middle of the next century, which was the heyday of opera seria, the static but technically challenging da capo aria, and the now-extinct castrato voice.

In the mid-19th century, bel canto was employed to distinguish the traditional Italian vocal model from more forceful, less ingratiating styles of singing. These newer styles of singing had arisen as a result of 19th-century operas growing increasingly dramatic, pitting performers against louder and denser orchestral accompaniments in bigger theatres. Nonetheless, "neither musical nor general dictionaries saw fit to attempt [a] definition [of bel canto] until after 1900". The term remains vague and ambiguous in the 21st century and is often used nostalgically to evoke a lost singing tradition.[2]

You can clearly see, that the definition of "Bel Canto" has specific historical roots to it and for hundreds of years it has shape shifted to mean different things to different people.

George Peckham is actually considered to be a Maestro Kyle influenced teacher in Seattle. George Peckham is well known to be very Kyle-esque in his teachings so its interesting that your lessons with him seemed to help.

Billy, Im willing to bet you a $60 lesson, that if you train with me for 1 hour, Ill show you how to sing and make sounds with your voice that you will be very pleased with... send me an email robert@thevocaliststudio.com and lets schedule that session. Come do a sesh with me Bill and I can help you to get just about any sound you want with your voice.

The conclusion is... Maestro Kyle was a legendary voice teacher, but learning to sing is a team effort. Both the teacher and the student share in the responsibility of the students progress. Also, everyone has a unique sound and there can also be some similarities that come from training with the same method, lets hope all those similarities are the good things that we here here, such as; great range, great registration bridging, good vowels, distortion, big open formants, strong respiration & support, head voice connectivity and performance.

Well, I wanted to make up for lost time... there you go... everything you ever wanted to know about the history and current status of the contemporary vocal scene in the vocal famous city of Seattle, wA.

:cool:

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Thanks Robert. I had thought of coming to you a few years ago when I wanted to hook up with a teacher, but when I saw the heavy Kyle influence of your method, I chose a different path and ended up with Sue Carr, who is helping me quite a bit, though there are still some things we have to work on (without going into it too much-she's definitely helping me).

I respectfully disagree with the statement that "George Peckham was a Kyle-influenced teacher". He was the complete opposite approach in that he was more what is today an SLS guy. ("Singing is extended speech" was his big deal.) David was a helluva guy (great guy), but his technique was anything but "singing as extended speech". :)

Not sure how to respond to the other comments without sounding like I'm dissing the local Seattle talent. I'm not, they're just not the style I want to have. Regarding Terry- I like Terry a lot and he was the local hero for so long. These days he's got a lot of rasp to him that he didn't have before. That may be by design too- but it's not for me. That guy was the guy all the locals looked up to for a long time in the 80s. He was the reason I went to Kyle in the first place. Terry's still doing his thing, which is cool. It's just not where I want to go with my voice. Love Rail, all great guys and players.

Maestro Kyle was a legendary voice teacher. No doubt about it, so if it seemed like I was slamming him, I meant no disrespect. I just meant that his approach wasn't for me. I worked on his stuff day and night. And I went with everything the guy handed down to me for sure. I certainly got some things out of it. But it wasn't the final word in my vocal wanderings and as hard as it is to believe, the approach did give me problems. George put me back together.

As far as the newer Seattle sound in voices, I don't really dig them much. Lane Staley has never been my thing, possibly because I'm an older guy. Some of it sounds really contrived to me and not that unique.

I'd much prefer to sound like Sam Cooke or Steve Perry or McCartney than Lane Staley. Those are voices that can sing incredibly high, incredibly quiet, and have many palettes. The Seattle guys just seem to all be the same to me (other than Cornell who was a lot different). If you listen to Staley, Tate, and Young- they've all got that kind of super heavy vibrato and they're Metal voices (even Staley). I can't imagine those voices doing anything but what they do. It fits what they do for sure. It's not where I'd want to go though. I can't imagine any of those voices singing a ballad without it sounding like a Metal tune. It doesn't sound natural to me and to me, a singing voice should (my opinion). Many of the Kyle students that are cited seem to me to be all about power and nothing else. Ann Wilson is a notable exception. A vocal Goddess for sure. However- Maestro Kyle was not her only teacher. She was also a George Peckham student, though I'm not sure if it was before or after David Kyle. Ann could sing anything. Now, she's having some issues with rasp, but I saw her a few years ago and she was still amazing. By the way- what the heck do ya gotta do to get Heart into the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame...?!

Look at a guy like Boston's Brad Delp. ENDLESS range but without that whole "Metal" sound. The guy also doesn't push much at all. To me, that's a better, more natural sound. I can't see a voice like that coming from David Kyle's studio. Is it just a style thing Robert? Meaning, do Terry, Geoff, and Lane sound the way they do by choice, or is that part of the method? From what I remember, it seemed part of the method. Could they sing like Brad Delp? I don't mean sound like him, but just have a more natural, speech-like approach.

It's hard to disagree on the internet without sounding disrespectful. Apologies if that's how it comes across.

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I dont feel you were being disrespectful at all. I get that your saying that your not into what you perceive to be a "metal" sound.... I understand that. The important point Im trying to play for here, its far less to do with the the coach then it seems your attributing it to. It has more to do with the individual and the genre' they choose to sing in.

I have a lot of jazz and R&B and theater students as well as rock students. Im not, and neither was Maestro Kyle... and neither is Susan Carr for that matter... a "genre' / style coach". People always confuse this... they listen to the genre' nuances and erroneously conclude that this teacher or that teacher is a style coach... For me, people think that if they come to TVS , they will get "rock singing style coaching"... and sure, I will coach my students on their songs and we will work on appropriate interpretations and ideas for the genre'... we (good voice teachers) are all doing some "coaching"... but TVS, like these other teachers as well are teaching voice technique. Technique is what you apply to the art... any art from. Coaching is specific to interpreting that genre'. So I am a coach and a technique teacher... but the context of this discussion is about technique. Conclusion is, I believe with my techniques you can sing any way you want to Bill... how you apply the techniques is up to you.

So when you first considered coming to TVS, it seems you may have thought to yourself, "he is a rock style coach... I dont want to sing those styles" and missed out on an opportunity. No fault of your own, confusing the difference between coaching and technique is VERY common with students of singing.

Sing like Brad Delp & Steve Perry... ? I most certainly can show you how to do that. In fact, this year, we developed a line of vocal teachings we call "light mass" phonations that are entirely about getting that lighter, sound reminicent of of a "Perry-esque" sound. A Geoff Tate sound would be what we refer to as a "medium mass" phonation and I can teach people how to do that as well. So here again, its all about what you want to do and if you have a great voice coach that has the techniques and tools, you should be able to get what you want... certainly from me, you would. I regret that we never got a chance to hook up, but my studio is available to you anytime if you would like to move beyond the assumptive and really experience what it is that TVS is doing.

In the meantime, here is a sample from my upcoming release for my training system, "The Four Pillars of Singing" that demonstrates that "light mass".... (Brad Delp, Steve Perry) kind of phonation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V2YelRVsQQ

My studio is at the Market Theater underneath Pike Place Market, come visit sometime.

click here: www.thevocaliststudio.com/train-on-a-stage

Hope to train with you one day and really show you what TVS is about... not necessarily what the "maestro david kyle of the 80s" was about...

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...

So when you first considered coming to TVS, it seems you may have thought to yourself, "he is a rock style coach... I dont want to sing those styles" and missed out on an opportunity.

No, actually, it was the Kyle thing that turned me off. I think I read a lot of that here first cause I was doing the research and that turned me off. I'd already been there, had results I didn't care for and didn't want to go there again. I LIKE rock. I SING rock of all kinds - except, I'm not a Metal guy.

...

Sing like Brad Delp & Steve Perry... ? I most certainly can show you how to do that. In fact, this year, we developed a line of vocal teachings we call "light mass" phonations that are entirely about getting that lighter, sound reminicent of of a "Perry-esque" sound. A Geoff Tate sound would be what we refer to as a "medium mass" phonation and I can teach people how to do that as well. So here again, its all about what you want to do and if you have a great voice coach that has the techniques and tools, you should be able to get what you want... certainly from me, you would. I regret that we never got a chance to hook up, but my studio is available to you anytime if you would like to move beyond the assumptive and really experience what it is that TVS is doing.

Touche'- I had that coming. ;) I agree that I've assumed some things here, but it's not completely without experience. I had DK experience. I know the singers of who you speak of, etc.

In the meantime, here is a sample from my upcoming release for my training system, "The Four Pillars of Singing" that demonstrates that "light mass".... (Brad Delp, Steve Perry) kind of phonation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V2YelRVsQQ

Interesting. One thing I notice is that the release of each note has that kind of 'grunt' to it at the end (Ehhhh-uhhh....- hard to type what I hear). Is that just a stylistic thing or part of the approach? But yeah, this is a more desirable sound for sure.

Hope to train with you one day and really show you what TVS is about... not necessarily what the "maestro david kyle of the 80s" was about...

It's possible though I'm petrified of going through what I did before. I still have all of those Kyle exercises (breathout out, hold it till 34, etc.) and I just don't do them for fear of falling into old habits. I'm 48 now, sing higher and smoother than I ever have, yet I always crave more.

Thanks for not taking this as an offensive post.

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Why would I be offended? Maestro Kyle and TVS clients are doing quite well and confident without your approval.

Click Here:

www.thevocaliststudio.com/endorsements

BTW,,, I also have trained with Dr. David Alt, Peter Egan and have even done some work with Steve Fraser whom has influenced my pedagogy and therefore my sound quite a bit in the last couple years. Their influences have nothing to do with Maestro Kyle? My story is not just about Maestro Kyle and the singing styles of the 80s, so, respectfully, ... get over it already?

In Seattle, so many people are "Hung up" on "singers from the 80s are not cool"... Attitude. In the 90s, great vocal technique became "uncool" ... sadly, it was the era of "anti-technique" and chest pulling that took over Seattle with the grunge movement. Leaving us with the flat and ugly phonations of Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder.

Thankfully, people are realizing that bad singing is just... bad singing. Technique is starting to be "cool" again..

Come to my studio and dont work with Maestro David Kyle... come work with Robert Lunte and see for yourself what Im talking about.

I have provided examples of me and other great singers for you to enjoy and to fortify my points, I would like you to now do the same. I would really appreciate hearing it... what is the vocal sound that you find dear to your ear. Thanks ahead of time, I look forward to hearing it.

Kind Regards,

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I do have to disagree with you on one thing, Billy. I could totally imagine Tate singing opera. Pick any song but "Silent Lucidity" immediately comes to mind. Granted, it has "rock" timbre and some light phonation here and there but that is meant to convey emotion, something any singer, metal, r& b, or opera or whatever, has to do.

And I have seen Lunte sing opera. Rock opera, that is, but the sound is just as operatic as Pavarotti, in it's own way.

But I get it, Kyle didn't take you where YOU want to be. Nothing against the Kyle/Lunte method, it just wasn't for you and what you want to sing, at least as you thought.

Just as I don't get much from SLS. Perhaps I should go to a SLS-heavy forum and register my misgivings there. That should accomplish something.

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Ya Ron, thats a great idea. :rolleyes:

Bill, Im totally happy for you that Susan Carr is working for you, I know she is a decent teacher... next time you see her, why dont you ask her why she keeps ignoring my invites for the last two years to join TMV, a community I created for the benefit of everyone and all teachers and methods. Another great thing that is part of Maestro Kyle's legacy on the singing world.

As I said, come by my studio anytime, Id love to help you to become a better singer.

Wishing you the best.

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I do have to disagree with you on one thing, Billy. I could totally imagine Tate singing opera. Pick any song but "Silent Lucidity" immediately comes to mind. Granted, it has "rock" timbre and some light phonation here and there but that is meant to convey emotion, something any singer, metal, r& b, or opera or whatever, has to do.

And I have seen Lunte sing opera. Rock opera, that is, but the sound is just as operatic as Pavarotti, in it's own way.

But I get it, Kyle didn't take you where YOU want to be. Nothing against the Kyle/Lunte method, it just wasn't for you and what you want to sing, at least as you thought.

Just as I don't get much from SLS. Perhaps I should go to a SLS-heavy forum and register my misgivings there. Thathould accomplish something.

Yeah, Tate could do opera. This methodology is much more geared to Metal and an Operatic approach. For sure. I don't disagree with you at all.

It's not where I want to go. Not sure why that's such a big deal. Regarding the comments early about Cobain and Vedder- I agree they suck.

I didn't come here to register my misgivings about anything. I told of my experience with certain methods while trying to find out about other methods.

I didn't realize this was a "one method fits all" forum. I thought it was a forum that talked about singing in all it's forms and was open to many different methods.

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This forum is for all methods and discussions Bill... Including Susan, Im just frustrated that my own home town girl wont bother to join the community after repeated efforts... but its no big deal. Do you have any files that we could hear of you singing, that would be great... Thanks!

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