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I look at it a bit differently. You get one short lifetime then its gone. You leave behind recordings. I'll probably never see Robert Plant or Paul McCartney sing live but I have their recordings. I dont care if it took them 3 million takes lol. The Beatles stuff after about 66' was a patchwork of various takes and overdubs...never played live at all

 

As far as being a pure singer....yeah, singing live shows a lot. On the other hand a band like Steely Dan laid down some of the best albums ever...yet they rarely played live and when they did it wasnt going to be nearly as good as the meticulous albums

 

maybe its the difference between a "performer" and an "artist". Both have their place

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6 hours ago, JonJon said:

when he kicks it in on the chorus he sounds a little like Jon Anderson from Yes

that thought never hit me before JonJon. now that you mention it,     i agree!   Arnold Lanni however can scratch it up pretty tough.

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I think some singers have an edge that no amount of training will get the average or even good singer to.  You see this threw out life in other disciplines.  There are always a few people that are exceptional in their chosen field.   I am not opposed to training.  You need to train to see what your particular voice can deliver. I believe in training and practice.   However, thinking you are going to be a Russell Allen, Dio, Ken Tamplin, etc. Is not realistic.  I heard Bruce a few months back at a concert.  The band Ghost performed the opening act.  Their lead singer had a very pleasant voice but small and not very strong but projected well.  I enjoyed his singing very much.  I think it suits the band's style.  However, when Bruce started singing it was other worldly.  Bruce's voice filled the entire arena like a nuclear explosion (in a good way).  It was large, well supported and full of color and expression.  That concert  helped me hear the difference in a good singer and  an outstanding singer.  Bruce was absolutely amazing from start to finish.

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14 hours ago, Rufus Rufus said:

I think some singers have an edge that no amount of training will get the average or even good singer to.  You see this threw out life in other disciplines.  There are always a few people that are exceptional in their chosen field.   I am not opposed to training.  You need to train to see what your particular voice can deliver. I believe in training and practice.   However, thinking you are going to be a Russell Allen, Dio, Ken Tamplin, etc. Is not realistic.  I heard Bruce a few months back at a concert.  The band Ghost performed the opening act.  Their lead singer had a very pleasant voice but small and not very strong but projected well.  I enjoyed his singing very much.  I think it suits the band's style.  However, when Bruce started singing it was other worldly.  Bruce's voice filled the entire arena like a nuclear explosion (in a good way).  It was large, well supported and full of color and expression.  That concert  helped me hear the difference in a good singer and  an outstanding singer.  Bruce was absolutely amazing from start to finish.

It can be learned. Different things definitely come easier or more naturally for some than others, but it can be trained. Some in weeks, some in months, and other may take years. The only thing I've ever seen limited, beyond medical issues getting in the way, is the lower range. That too can be trained to extend a couple of notes downward, but not much more. The exception to this would be learning throat singing or very controlled pulse, so I suppose even that limitation is subjective.

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17 hours ago, Rufus Rufus said:

 I heard Bruce a few months back at a concert.  The band Ghost performed the opening act.  Their lead singer had a very pleasant voice but small and not very strong but projected well.  I enjoyed his singing very much.  I think it suits the band's style.  However, when Bruce started singing it was other worldly.  Bruce's voice filled the entire arena like a nuclear explosion (in a good way).  It was large, well supported and full of color and expression.  That concert  helped me hear the difference in a good singer and  an outstanding singer.  Bruce was absolutely amazing from start to finish.

I've been to a concert from this tour (July in Toronto). Never heard off Ghost before but I was impressed. Then Bruce started singing and, well, the guy is a legend for a reason. 

The big comparison I did was actually between Maiden's guitarists (to avoid the long story altogether - Dave's approach to live tone worked better to my ears than Adrian's...)

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10 minutes ago, JonJon said:

whistle?

Yep. That's a very fine-tuned coordination of glottal closure and balance of gottal and sub-glottal pressure. I got up to a C6 pretty much by accident (training the right muscles groups for different things). Since I can almost sing/whistle a C6 consistently, I've decided to go ahead and start training it more directly in order to sing up to an E6. That way, I can sing all of Phantom of the Opera by myself. Haha! I've heard up to a G8, which is beyond ridiculous, at least in my opinion.

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28 minutes ago, Draven Grey said:

Yep. That's a very fine-tuned coordination of glottal closure and balance of gottal and sub-glottal pressure. I got up to a C6 pretty much by accident (training the right muscles groups for different things). Since I can almost sing/whistle a C6 consistently, I've decided to go ahead and start training it more directly in order to sing up to an E6. That way, I can sing all of Phantom of the Opera by myself. Haha! I've heard up to a G8, which is beyond ridiculous, at least in my opinion.

I have worked on it sporadically and also aiming at the DavidLeeRoth scream whistle thingy. If I attempt whistle and record into something like VoceVista (I actually use Tartini), I can SEE it registering sound up into the "7"s. I forget what note it gets too, maybe f7? who knows. But this is just the lightest high harmonics you can imagine. There is nothing like whistle coming out of my mouth yet.

So far my actual notes are still topping out around G5 first thing in the morning lol. I think I have registered nearly an A5 at my absolute peak but its just a very light note. Up to F#5 is pretty solid

I do find it interesting but also irritating that Im pretty strong and consistent to about f5/f#5 any day, any vowel etc, but generally thats it. G5 is only going to be light if it comes at all. Weird how it is solid then just hits that solid brick wall

 

So I am trying to logically put it together. Im thinking maybe I need to continue to try to extend the regular headvoice on up to A5ish before even expecting to register some whistle. or do u think that would matter at all? Pretty sure I have seen people doing whistle on youtube whom I doubt could sing an A5 lol

The DLR scream/whistle thing I have looked into some and one semi pro singer guy said it took him about a year to get it but he for sure has it down solid now.

Im pretty careful playing with that stuff because Im not trying to build any permarasp lol

 

this impresses the heck out of me. Dude just calmly demonstrates up to e6 or f6 or whatever.

even though I started singing very late and am 50 now, I will feel somewhat shortchanged if I am not able to eventually get a c6 and a nice strong a5

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Sorry to hijack teh trhead, everyone!

I find that I switch to more of a whistle voice around the A5. I can still add some weight to the TA muscles there, but it starts to sound too shrill for my taste if I do. And I start to squeeze on the C6 unintentionally. When I can relax, it's easy to sing that note. But the tendency is to squeeze. Adding more sob helps, but more raising the soft palate, and then controlling the dampening of the larynx to feel more like a gentle pull on the /uh/-like sound of  the TA muscles.It's very difficult to describe in text. Essenatially, the squeeze works against you. Although, my greatest help in that balance and closure has beeen a very relaxed straw exercise with a cocktail straw.

I haven't gotten into high-pitch/whistle screams yet, exhaled or inhaled. I can do fry, false, cord, etc, just not the super high pitches. I plan to conquer that next, before creating a course of study specifically for vocal distortion.

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9 hours ago, Draven Grey said:

Sorry to hijack teh trhead, everyone!

Its ok for me to hijack my own thread lol

 

yeah, im pretty sure right now I am squeezing quite a bit up in that f5ish area, whereas for example Alex in the vid is ultra relaxed. Obviously there has to be some sort of mechanical limit on how much a mechanism can squeeze therefore there must be different mechanisms in play as we try to go higher. I notice that MANY famous and great singers (most of my faves) top out right at g5-a5

Jorn Lande, Chris Cornell, Coverdale, Dio, Daniel MacMaster (Bonham Band), Michael Kiske, Geoff Tate, Ray Gillen. They all top out around g5-a5 except maybe for a live scream or two where it catches some higher harmonic

So it seems obvious there is some mechanism shift or strong resonance shift at that point??  Some of the newer guys go higher such as Myles Kennedy, Mike Patton

 

Then you get a guy like Vitas who is supposed to be mainly a low tenor but he has learned to seamlessly go on up to about e6 lol

 

 

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From what I've felt, it pulls high enough into head voice resonance (pulling into the soft palate) that the glottis takes over, not as a squeeze, but simply closure. Vitas ads a lot of vocal twang  when he does it, or rather tilts towards the hard palate. Quack & Release onsets can help you develop better cord closure coordination, but for the super high pitches, I've found it feels more like a really light Attack & Release. I can go well into the 6th octave when I do it right but it's pretty quiet right now, and not comfortably controlled. Out of everything I've done to develop range without strain, I feel like the straw exercise (see below) has helped the most, followed closely by learning to slowly turn on my TA muscles on any note. But you're right about whistle, it shifts pretty dramatically. While I think the latter exercises help tremendously, the former two I mentioned seem to give me much more control over the actual closure.

 

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you mention hard/soft palate. Generally when I go higher its ALL back towards the hard palate. (oops, meant to say back towards SOFT palate) There is no feeling or feel of resonance anywhere near the front half of my head etc. Also for instance, generally if I pinch my nose nothing changes because nothing is going thru there anyway lol

In my training I havent done a ton of witch cackle, or baby "waaaaah" type stuff. Only recently started doing them.

Do you think there could be any hindrance to going higher if the pharyngeal aspect is underdeveloped? I tend to naturally go way back more towards the sort of hooty "ooo" sound when going higher. For instance Jens is demonstrated the vocal function that lots of metal singers use to go higher and it sounds pretty pharyngeal and its a sound I NEVER have. Not yet anyway

 

Im thinking that part of my longer term progress will have to be building up way more pharyngeal strength.

I guess its common sense then that I should be training lots of "ee" and "ih" type stuff?

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I assume you meant the soft palate. The back of the soft palate is definitely more pharyngeal, but /oo/ is too far back, imo. I try to get my students to stay on more open and relaxed vowels, where /ee/ is shaded a bit more to /ih/, and /oo/ more of an /ou/, otherwise there's a bit too much presssure and pulling on the glottis. I focus on the pharynx a little more for distortion, but for higher notes, it's more about going straight up into teh soft palate, or rather raising the soft palate higher - not a hard pull, but mostly a mental thing. To keep the voice from hitting the throat hard, pretend there's a wall at the back of your soft palate. When the resonance and pressure hits that wall, it can only go either straight up, or hook back around towards the mask.

Edging towards the hard palate on high notes, or adding a bit of twang, can help with cord closure, but it also gets a lot harsher. That is where you find reinforced falsetto, especially if you can flex the TA muscles a bit at the same time. I added a slow ramp up of the TA muscles to the Contract & Release onset, from very light to as heavy as I could get while still stable and not straining. Once I started training that way, it opened up a very relaxed soprano range to me. 

One thing that has really helped a lot of my students is thinking that everything above the bridge is in head voice. Everything. Flexing the TA, adding twang, dampening, sob, and everything else is for sound color. Once you start separating all the different muscle groups into their different functions, it gets easier to add and take away what you like. Since everything above the bridge in in head voice, if you can sing it in head voice, then you can learn to sound like your belting on those same notes. Also, you can sing a note in head voice to feel where the resonance and pressure naturally want to sit. Then use that as your foundation to begin adding other sound colors to.

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just for the sake of anyone who might search the forum for Dio info etc.

just saw this posted today.

 

 

again, Rob Lundgren is an absolute beast and a master of live covers. That being said I dont hear this sounding super close to Dio.

 

But if u listen to his recent cover of Skid Row its VERY close to Sebastian Bach!

 

 

 

So what do we learn from that? Whatever coordination or placement that gives a Sebastian Bach sound isnt the same as to get a Dio sound. To my ears the Seb sound is something like configuring the vocal tract to an "ee" whereas for Dio im pretty sure it got to be a bit more neutral like an "uh" or "er". In any case I dont think the really forward "ee" type placement will do it. Robs natural sound is probably pretty edgy or forward

 

If you think of Jorn Lande and maybe even Joe Lynn Turner, they have more of the full bodied, rounder tone like Dio

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On 10/31/2017 at 6:35 AM, JonJon said:

 

again, Rob Lundgren is an absolute beast and a master of live covers. That being said I dont hear this sounding super close to Dio. 

It is genetics.  Rob is an amazing singer, but he simply does not have the big voice of Dio or Bruce.. Everything including the size of the body impacts the size and darkness of the voice.  Big guys have larger voices simply because of the larger vibratory chamber 

Somehow amazingly in this very song DIO is able to get his chesty tone all the way consistently through the song.  That is why he is so exceptional. With Rob, you can make out that he is bridging.  There is a definite change in the vocal quality.  DIO, it is ONE VOICE all the way through. .Genius at work!! 

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2 hours ago, aravindmadis said:

It is genetics.  Rob is an amazing singer, but he simply does not have the big voice of Dio or Bruce.. Everything including the size of the body impacts the size and darkness of the voice.  Big guys have larger voices simply because of the larger vibratory chamber 

Somehow amazingly in this very song DIO is able to get his chesty tone all the way consistently through the song.  That is why he is so exceptional. With Rob, you can make out that he is bridging.  There is a definite change in the vocal quality.  DIO, it is ONE VOICE all the way through. .Genius at work!! 

and the weird thing is Dio was sort of a runt. Maybe he had a big noggin or big pharynx spaces.

 

I laid down a demo yesterday (layng in bed with cheap headset mic lol) that had a verse similar to an old Rainbow era Dio song and I wasnt specifically going for a Dio vibe but on the 2nd verse I got vaguely in that territory. Mainly it was just REALLY compressed for me. But as you say, as I go higher I got way thinner. But at least I sort of know what direction to go in if I want more of that sound

just the first part lol. Then the chorus gets to sounding more like Mark Boals

check it out if u like http://indierecordingdepot.com/t/bash-demo-2-youre-not-real-nov-demo-challenge/2142

 

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34 minutes ago, JonJon said:

and the weird thing is Dio was sort of a runt. Maybe he had a big noggin or big pharynx spaces.

 

I laid down a demo yesterday (layng in bed with cheap headset mic lol) that had a verse similar to an old Rainbow era Dio song and I wasnt specifically going for a Dio vibe but on the 2nd verse I got vaguely in that territory. Mainly it was just REALLY compressed for me. But as you say, as I go higher I got way thinner. But at least I sort of know what direction to go in if I want more of that sound

just the first part lol. Then the chorus gets to sounding more like Mark Boals

check it out if u like http://indierecordingdepot.com/t/bash-demo-2-youre-not-real-nov-demo-challenge/2142

 

Listening to your voice.  Nice range and impressive bridging.  But there are two challenges in what you have in getting a Dio sound!  One is that in the lower part of the voice, there are places where it sounds dopey and not like your natural voice.  Typical issue when we try a large sound than what our voices can do at the current level.  The trick is to sing like you are speaking.. it is very much possible at the lower range.. By using a conversational tone, you can get rid of the dopey sound.. 

Secondly, DIO would use heavy distortion in the chorus and sing just the right vowels!(the see you, feel you part).  The chorus you sound more like Miljenko Matijevic in "She's gone". Even there he has more weight in the chorus.. 

I think there is some genetic quirk that helps people like DIO sing like they do. Or it is just years and years of singing to build the strength(more likely).. 

This is my voice.. I have the same problem when I sing high.. You can hear the change in tonal color.. 

 

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14 hours ago, aravindmadis said:

Listening to your voice.  Nice range and impressive bridging.  But there are two challenges in what you have in getting a Dio sound!  One is that in the lower part of the voice, there are places where it sounds dopey and not like your natural voice.  Typical issue when we try a large sound than what our voices can do at the current level.  The trick is to sing like you are speaking.. it is very much possible at the lower range.. By using a conversational tone, you can get rid of the dopey sound.. 

Secondly, DIO would use heavy distortion in the chorus and sing just the right vowels!(the see you, feel you part).  The chorus you sound more like Miljenko Matijevic in "She's gone". Even there he has more weight in the chorus.. 

I think there is some genetic quirk that helps people like DIO sing like they do. Or it is just years and years of singing to build the strength(more likely).. 

This is my voice.. I have the same problem when I sing high.. You can hear the change in tonal color.. 

 

 

 

yeah, I wasnt saying I sound like Dio lol. The only comparison was in that brief 2nd verse where I did get into some nice compression. Otherwise im sort of the polar opposite of Dio on this song

and yeah, the whole first verse is a bit dopey. I was definitely trying to get a larger sound. One issue I tend to have is that sort of grab onto the chest voice and I dont get any higher resonance and it gets a bit dull sounding. Can get to sounding like a pinched nose almost

 

I did learn a lot doing that demo though. It was a scratch demo all the way. Im trying to do about 5 demos in November...keeping them casual to avoid my usual perfectionism/procrastination cycle.

I definitely want to get some David Lee Roth chesty belty stuff happening and obviously in this song I was dead opposite. Like I said, that real squealy e5 was more like a closed down Mark Boals type of thing. Definitely the first time ive ever hit that type of note. So I learned that i sort of have that closed aspect down to a degree and now I have to work more on my open throat belty sounds.

 

mark hits a g#5 here (I think)...but its that really closed squealy type. With my note only being an E5 it didnt have to be that tight but thats how it came out lol, I just went with it.

 

I tend to really squeeze the cords but I need to work on keeping more of an open throat and start using more above the folds compression etc. but like I said, doing this demo helped clarify some of that stuff

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14 hours ago, aravindmadis said:

Listening to your voice.  Nice range and impressive bridging.  But there are two challenges in what you have in getting a Dio sound!  One is that in the lower part of the voice, there are places where it sounds dopey and not like your natural voice.  Typical issue when we try a large sound than what our voices can do at the current level.  The trick is to sing like you are speaking.. it is very much possible at the lower range.. By using a conversational tone, you can get rid of the dopey sound..

 

 

another part of the equation is that im singing thru a headset. (cheap koss SB40). The whole point of getting the headset was so that I could more casually write vocal melodies. So basically I am trying to get to where I can sing while sitting up in bed, chilling with the laptop. otherwise its setting up a mic stand in my bedroom and standing on these tired feet and you can guess how motivating THAT is.

SOOOOO, the singing on this demo was done while sitting in bed. ive gotten used to singing in the car but sitting in bed is a bit different. For one thing its pretty hard to get the chest elevated and its just harder to really get strong support happening.

All that being said, this was still a decent step in the right direction for me since ive hardly ever tried to get a compressed sound in the first place. ive purposefully kept it pretty clean so far because I  didnt want to do anything stupid and get perma rasp lol. But now I feel im strong enough to start cranking up the rock vibe a bit more

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15 hours ago, aravindmadis said:

This is my voice.. I have the same problem when I sing high.. You can hear the change in tonal color.. 

 

 

1) Im a ways from trying to cover Bruce Dickinson. There would simply be no point lol. For one thing his stuff is so "wordy" it makes it 10x as hard

 

2) yeah you sound a bit muffled overall on the higher stuff. Same thing I struggle with sometimes (but I do 5 more takes lol). its real easy to move up into a higher range but its almost like we forget to pick up any ping or bright resonance on the way. I struggle with it but im getting a little better. I call it "getting stuck"

 

I havent checked out Milo M that much, or Michael Kiske for that matter. My super faves are pretty much DLR, Coverdale, Ray Gillan, Goran Edman. Of course the trio of Halford, Dio, Dickinson are all time greats

DLR is really chesty/belty and Coverdale is pretty round sounding but Ray Gillen and Goran Edman are thinner. So I do like both types of voices. Something does appeal to me as far as the thinner voices like Mark Slaughter, Daniel McMaster (Bonham band back in the day), Goran Edman, Mark Boals. I like the agility in those types of voices. Sometimes the thicker guys like Jorn Lande and even Joe Lynn Turner sound a bit "blocky" to me. Even Dio, great as he is, sometimes is a bit too much on the overdramatic opera vibe. Id like to be ABLE to sing like that but not HAVE to lol. In a sense I identify with a Rob Halford voice type a bit more than a Dio type

I forgot one of my ALL TIME faves, Lenny Wolf on the first 2 Kingdom Come albums. omg. I think he eventually had surgery or some other issues so he doesnt really sound like this anymore. I think he sort of renounced his former voice anyway, saying he sounded too girly and squealy but I dig it lol

 

its funny though because I started this thread discussing Dio from a purely theoretical "student of the game" angle. Saying that I figured his voice was one of the hardest to mimic. Then I did my demo song and I found out I was more correct than I realized! My natural vibe so far has developed on the opposite end of the spectrum from Dio!  Thats good though because it lets me know which direction I can go for a lot of improvement

 

u ever listen to Goran Edman? he is a really soulful RnB type when u really listen to him. he has decent warmth down low but he gets nice and then when he goes up higher. One of my heroes for sure. My voice could end up similar to his (with a million more hours of work lol)

 

listen to him thin out

 

 

Dude is such a boss with that soul and nice agility. This is where I prefer the lighter voices as opposed to the blockier ones

 

 

 

BUT CHECK THIS OUT! Dude actually got a Dio vibe in a few spots! lol.  of course this is 25 years after the previous 2 songs so his voice has changed etc. Still pretty surprising to me

 

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On 10/30/2017 at 6:05 PM, JonJon said:

just for the sake of anyone who might search the forum for Dio info etc.

just saw this posted today.

 

 

again, Rob Lundgren is an absolute beast and a master of live covers. That being said I dont hear this sounding super close to Dio.

 

But if u listen to his recent cover of Skid Row its VERY close to Sebastian Bach!

 

 

 

So what do we learn from that? Whatever coordination or placement that gives a Sebastian Bach sound isnt the same as to get a Dio sound. To my ears the Seb sound is something like configuring the vocal tract to an "ee" whereas for Dio im pretty sure it got to be a bit more neutral like an "uh" or "er". In any case I dont think the really forward "ee" type placement will do it. Robs natural sound is probably pretty edgy or forward

 

If you think of Jorn Lande and maybe even Joe Lynn Turner, they have more of the full bodied, rounder tone like Dio

Off topic here, but .... Regarding Rob Lundgren.... He left about 1 or 2 mean spirited insult comments on my performance videos. He revealed himself to not be a fellow supportive musician. :thumbsdown:   It is sad to see that someone that sings so well, and you would assume could be a cool guy, ... is actually an ass-troll.

Not-Cool (1).jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

Off topic here, but .... Regarding Rob Lundgren.... He left about 1 or 2 mean spirited insult comments on my performance videos. He revealed himself to not be a fellow supportive musician. :thumbsdown:   It is sad to see that someone that sings so well, and you would assume could be a cool guy, ... is actually an ass-troll.

Not-Cool (1).jpg

 

yeah thats odd because he seems more like the mellow type that stays stoned all the time lol

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24 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Draven could post volumes on this I’m sure, from his consulting days.

 

I definitely could! That's one of the main reasons I got out of coaching music business stuff. The amount of entitlement, self-centeredness, narcisism, and lack of consideration, is staggering. I'm not saying Lundgren is that way. Who knows, maybe he had a bad day, or maybe he's critical of everyone including himself. But I don't know him. His actions speak the loudest. Granted, I also know quite a few very big names that many of my friends idolized until they met them in person and saw thei narcisism and general ass-hole attitude. Over time, that attitude builds a reputation. Those with a lot of success can get away with it to a point. I can't even count how many bands and artists in a local or regional status ignorantly ruined their reputation and career with that attitude. Industry Gatekeepers talk to each other about you.

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