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let's discuss the concept of "spot training"

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http://voicecouncil.com/vocal-versatility/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MVM+83b+06+Feb+2011&utm_content=MVM+83b+06+Feb+2011+CID_2742b69b0671fbf62b51af6c6bca1c24&utm_source=Email+marketing+software&utm_term=Vocal+Versatility

i liked this video. having viewed this, i thought it might be fun to explore whether vocal teachers might expand their "product" by offering "spot training."

target audience: those singers that have developed a core skillset and are looking to achieve or master a specific "skill."

instead of a one-size fits all approach, a new breed of vocal instructor.....specialists perhaps?

what do you folks think? is it possible to spot train?

i thought this might be an interesting discussion.

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http://voicecouncil.com/vocal-versatility/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MVM+83b+06+Feb+2011&utm_content=MVM+83b+06+Feb+2011+CID_2742b69b0671fbf62b51af6c6bca1c24&utm_source=Email+marketing+software&utm_term=Vocal+Versatility

i liked this video. having viewed this, i thought it might be fun to explore whether vocal teachers might expand their "product" by offering "spot training."

target audience: those singers that have developed a core skillset and are looking to achieve or master a specific "skill."

instead of a one-size fits all approach, a new breed of vocal instructor.....specialists perhaps?

what do you folks think? is it possible to spot train?

i thought this might be an interesting discussion.

Bob: Most vocal students are Leopards... many spots to work on. The face-to-face voice teacher does not take a 1-size-fits-all approach. Its quite tailored. This is not new, but a return to the way it has been done for a very long time.

The last lesson I gave face-to-face was a spot-lesson, with 3 spots: posture, twang and vowel formation. One 90 minute lesson.

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Bob: Most vocal students are Leopards... many spots to work on. The face-to-face voice teacher does not take a 1-size-fits-all approach. Its quite tailored. This is not new, but a return to the way it has been done for a very long time.

The last lesson I gave face-to-face was a spot-lesson, with 3 spots: posture, twang and vowel formation. One 90 minute lesson.

wish i could have been a fly on the wall steve.

steve, quick one, can twang be muscular at times, meaning can it take a lot of a singer to maintain it? sometimes it just falls into place, other times i'm trying to hold on to it.

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Every lesson I've had has been a "spot" lesson. I've only had one teacher though. Sometimes I feel like training curbing, other times edge, and other time I wish to learn the basics of growl and so on. I pretty much always decide what I want the lesson I take to be about and I like this concept.

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steve, quick one, can twang be muscular at times, meaning can it take a lot of a singer to maintain it? sometimes it just falls into place, other times i'm trying to hold on to it.

Bob: No. Not the twang. It takes very little strength to do, but does require consistency of concept. IMO, if there is an issue with keeping twang going, its that the habit is not ingrained enough.

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Such a concept that Steven elucidated reminds me of Geoff Tate's formal training. Six lessons with David Kyle. Not years and years or some kind of certificate or what-have-you. One lesson a week for six weeks. Added on to the burning desire beneath it all and, voila, an astounding voice that has lasted for decades. I think the best lessons are "spot" lessons where it's not so much the repetition of scales, though those can help build proper habits as it the "a-ha" moments (I don't tones reminiscent Harkett, though a-ha means the same thing in english and norwegian) where the student suddenly fits a piece into place and the rest, to quote Tom Hulce as he played Mozart, is "just scribbling and bibbling. Bibbling and scribbling."

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Such a concept that Steven elucidated reminds me of Geoff Tate's formal training. Six lessons with David Kyle. Not years and years or some kind of certificate or what-have-you. One lesson a week for six weeks. Added on to the burning desire beneath it all and, voila, an astounding voice that has lasted for decades. I think the best lessons are "spot" lessons where it's not so much the repetition of scales, though those can help build proper habits as it the "a-ha" moments (I don't tones reminiscent Harkett, though a-ha means the same thing in english and norwegian) where the student suddenly fits a piece into place and the rest, to quote Tom Hulce as he played Mozart, is "just scribbling and bibbling. Bibbling and scribbling."

I'll say this again at the risk of Robert Lunte coming in and getting in an argument with me...

For Tate, it was not

day 1: I can't sing a note

day 2: I have 6 lessons with David Kyle

end of 6 lessons: I am a vocal God.

Tate had things going on before Kyle. Kyle honed what he had and improved it, but there already was some natural talent there, at least I saw that when he was in local bands in my area, prior to DK. The reason I state this is because I don't think it was a "voila!" moment. Might've been, but I have my doubts and would with any teacher, program, etc. Vocal technique takes years to assimilate. Not challenging you Ron, I just think there was more to it.

Also, it is my understanding (because I did it, and because I've connected with his other students in the past) that those first 6 lessons with DK were relatively the same for each student. If I recall, and this is years ago (1980?), he wouldn't take you on unless you signed up for a 6 week program. So, he wouldn't just do you one lesson and that's it (at least when he started with you). David Kyle had a list of exercises for his students that were breath intensive (some of them really intense) and then he would focus a great deal on singing in the mask, etc. Each lesson, the first 1/2 of it was to go through those breathing exercises, and then you'd get to the actual voice stuff. That was how my 6 lessons went and other friends around the area that I knew at the time. For Tate, he obviously took what DK gave out and ran with it.

* Please note: I am not saying Kyle didn't do anything for Geoff Tate.

** Please note: I am not saying that Kyle's training was worthless to Geoff Tate.

*** Please note: I am not saying anything about others who have studied with David Kyle or use his methods.

**** Please note: These are my actual experiences. Yours may vary.

This post may not be recorded, rebroadcast, or redistributed without the express written consent of the NFL.

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Every lesson I've had has been a "spot" lesson. I've only had one teacher though. Sometimes I feel like training curbing, other times edge, and other time I wish to learn the basics of growl and so on. I pretty much always decide what I want the lesson I take to be about and I like this concept.

Snorth- that's cool of your teacher to tailor the lessons for you. Sometimes, I think some teachers can get into ruts or by-the-numbers kinds of things. When I notice that happening, I try to steer the lesson to another point that I'm actually having difficulties with. Lessons aren't cheap and if we don't get what we need out of them, what's the point? Many students have specific needs or want to go in a certain direction. I think teachers need to realize that- though, if a student comes to a lesson with absolutely no idea, then that'd require a different approach of course.

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this is what i'm trying to get at...f.y.i., my very first lesson (i was pitifully naive) hadn't hooked up on the forum, hell i didn't know there were forums like this, was with sally morgan..now sally is a teacher with credentials but i was 100 bucks for 45 mins., a strick 45 mins. and she had me learning things i already knew...i really wasn't helped.

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Man, I hear that. I like my weekly lesson guy, but when you're paying a buck a minute to hear an endless anecdote about the time so-and-so met what's-her-face, you really wish you could just buy a 15 minute spot training session and call it a day.

hahaha, wow, you too? I've had this in the past:

Teacher: "I've got big news!"

Student: "Awesome what is it?"(thinking that maybe there'll be some new methodology for a breakthrough in my training or something)

Teacher: "I'm going to be doing some shows locally this month and..."

oh, wait... we're on my dime now!

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Snorth- that's cool of your teacher to tailor the lessons for you. Sometimes, I think some teachers can get into ruts or by-the-numbers kinds of things. When I notice that happening, I try to steer the lesson to another point that I'm actually having difficulties with. Lessons aren't cheap and if we don't get what we need out of them, what's the point? Many students have specific needs or want to go in a certain direction. I think teachers need to realize that- though, if a student comes to a lesson with absolutely no idea, then that'd require a different approach of course.

Billy Budapest: Rule 1 in business... you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. Too often, the newbie student has no clue that they can interview the teacher to find out the approach, an then can ask for how open the teacher is to work targeted issues. Some teachers will, some won't. Gotta ask to find out. Matching student goals to a plan to achieve those goals needs a creative, flexible teacher.

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if i were a vocal teacher, i'd use my marketing background to go about it a little differently.

i might make it less of a "you're lucky to be here" or "you will achieve this and that" to more of an empowerment approach.

you are spending your hard earned money and i will teach you commensurate with your interest level. if i don't see you really applying yourself wholheartedly to this, i will encourage you to stop. if you are really trying hard, i'll reduce your rate or extend your session.

a while back, i had three skype lessons with jaime vendera. after the third, he said to me.."i want you to know some guys can fly on their own after a few lessons. you are one of those guys.

i can teach you more, but you've got enough to work on for now. we can always reconvene after a while.

i thought that was pretty considerate.

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yeah, Jaime's a good guy. I can't remember how, but he and I connected via email. I THINK the first time he was just putting out his book and I found some errors in it and sent him a list of the issues. Just some grammar types of things. And then that kind of opened the door. I might've offered to proofread it for him or something, I can't remember. Years ago, I had a gig (the second night in a little town out here) and I could barely talk let alone sing. Not sure what the deal was (probably smoke from the night before as it was a very smokey casino) and I tried to reach out to him for help, and I got someone from his office and it was kind of "he doesn't have time to talk to you" or "you need to schedule time with him" or something like that. He called me back shortly after that and he gave me some tips to kind of work my voice back into shape for the gig. Funny thing was, it felt froggy all the way up to the gig. However, from the first downbeat, I sang my a$$ off the rest of the night. I've talked to him a bit since then, mostly about the Steve Augeri situation, but now Jaime's a lot more big time, so I don't bug him. Raise Your Voice and Vocal RX are great books. I need to pull those out again. His neck and jaw exercises are really great for loosening up and if I remember correctly, that was what I needed to do for that gig and it totally helped me out (it's been years). Yeah, he's a good guy.

Steven- yeah, I seem to remember that I've kind of had to steer teachers back on course over the years. Some of them (as Ken Tamplin says) "dole things out over years, instead of getting you what you need now" (paraphrasing).

VH- sorry to hijack your thread there guy, just wanted to plug Jaime.

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Billy, that was not the point I was making. From before, I know you've said that you knew Tate and that he was already gettting into it before hand. And I get it, you don't like Kyle's approach and you think Tate was "nasally." Great, wonderful. I was quoting Tate from an interview where he, not me, credited the six lessons he had with Kyle, as being very influential. In his own words, not yours or mine, he had breath support problems and wore out easily. In his own words, not yours or mine, Kyle taught him how to find resonance and have breath support. In his own words, not yours or mine, he learned more from Kyle than he did when he was singing choir in school.

I get it, you don't like Kyle. Cool, whatever.

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