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    Years ago this WAS the best forum for singers and teachers. Those wishing to learn and those willing to help and those who just want to discuss their thoughts on singing and training.. There is still a need for this forum and a community to belong to and interact with.

    I was here when the community was thriving and when things declined. There are two main issues that singers have to deal with. Egos and rejection. The thoughts of "Am I good enough?" and "Who has the right to tell me I am not good enough". 

    No one has the right to tell you that you are not good enough. But, everyone does have a right to their opinion, and opinions differ. Some people will have a more pleasant starting sound than other people(according to "Popular" opinion) and people have different issues vocally to deal with. Not to mention the different purposes for wanting to improve and the different applications.  So, when you ask "Am I good enough?" You will get opinions that you may not like and you may get opinions that would make you believe there is no improvement needed. The FACT is that your voice is constantly changing and keeping up with the changes and making improvements takes work and practice. Any state that your voice is in right now can and will change with time and the way you choose to develope.

    The problem arose with people arguing opinions as facts. Just because you like or dislike something or believe something does not make it a fact or correct. Letting other people express their opinion without challenging it will give yourself different ways to deal with issues that you may have with your own development. To that extent and also, Giving advice and expressing your own opinion will give you insights on how you yourself feel about your development and other ways and things you can do to improve your own vocal skills.

     Back to the topic of this post: Do you want to continue with this forum and give and receive advice and engage in conversations about vocal improvement, heath and how things work for vocalists and why they work or do not?

   YOU, who or whom ever you are, need to take part for this forum to continue and grow and be great again.

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2 hours ago, MDEW said:

The problem arose with people arguing opinions as facts. Just because you like or dislike something or believe something does not make it a fact or correct. Letting other people express their opinion without challenging it will give yourself different ways to deal with issues that you may have with your own development. To that extent and also, Giving advice and expressing your own opinion will give you insights on how you yourself feel about your development and other ways and things you can do to improve your own vocal skills.

I could see it coming. The forum was becoming cliquey, and a pecking order was established. If you disagreed with certain established members, other established members ganged up on you. I had posts removed by a moderator because my opinions differed from his. That moderator started to take down some of my posts. I left the forum, and I am sure other members did, too. By time I checked back, a year later, the forum was just moderators talking among themselves.

It's a shame. The very thing that gave the forum its vibrancy, the mix of opinion, got trashed by "maestroism".

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2 hours ago, kickingtone said:

It's a shame. The very thing that gave the forum its vibrancy, the mix of opinion, got trashed by "maestroism".

    I agree. There are facts on how things work physically and sonically concerning the voice, but what sounds best and what works better for training is opinion. Voices differ and different styles of music calls for different approaches to singing.

   Things concerning the voice started to make more sense when those with opposing opinions or styles  would discuss their approach. Many times the individuals would be saying the same thing using different terms or expressions and not realizing they were saying the same things because they were so stuck on their own point of view.

    Things become easier to see and understand when approached from a different point of view.

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12 hours ago, MDEW said:

Things concerning the voice started to make more sense when those with opposing opinions or styles  would discuss their approach.

Things become easier to see and understand when approached from a different point of view.

I'd say that this used to be the unique selling point of the forum. It was its strength.

I do not think it got in the way of promoting The Four Pillars of Singing, either. On the contrary, it actually brought out the identity of the program, as well as driving discussion and web traffic.

That essential traffic got silenced for various reasons. It was undervalued. Even the one time posters who asked for a review and then disappeared for a couple of months should have been tolerated, I think. A critique is not only beneficial to the individual poster. It is content anybody can learn from.

Also, I think that unpaid reviews should have remained alongside paid reviews by Four Pillar specialists Posters would have gradually migrated to the paid reviews as they observed the success of newbies and beginners. Beginners should have been treated like gold dust. They are the ones who have the most power to show The Four Pillars of Singing do its thing, and even inspire intermediate and advanced singers to sign up.

But that all takes traffic, which requires tolerant debate (as you said), and time, which requires loyalty, so people hang around long enough to see the success of other members -- especially the progress of newbies and beginners. Cliques and maestroism quashes all of that.

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41 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

But that all takes traffic, which requires tolerant debate (as you said), and time, which requires loyalty, so people hang around long enough to see the success of other members -- especially the progress of newbies and beginners.

     The success of any forum is discussion. This includes new members with questions and comments and other members responding to the questions.  And yes, it does get a little frustrating when the same question is asked by several new members when all they would have had to do is look at the other posts from that day and a few days before to get a relevant answer(this was when we had more active members). At the same time it is also frustrating to new members to see  answers like  "Training and Time" or "Get a teacher" to most of these similar questions.

      One point to remember is that new members do not have the general knowledge expected by those who have been researching the voice for a while. Their general knowledge would be from youtube or books that are outdated or specific to a certain school of singing. Those wishing to help need to also use terms that may be contrary to accepted,or their own  pedagogy(fancy word used by vocal researchers to make them seem more intelligent and knowledgeable which just means "the words that they use between each other in a classroom environment). 

      Sometimes it is necessary to restate the same idea several different ways before that idea sticks in the mind of those who are learning and wanting to improve.    

      As I mentioned before, there were times when different members were arguing the same idea when they were merely using their  own individual definition of words, or using their own point of view and refusing to really read and try to understand what the other person wrote. One example for those who have been researching and are familiar with different teaching methods. There is a concept known as Twang. I will not go into the mechanics of it here, but the main idea is a way to keep the vocal cords together and there is a distinct sound to it. One particular teacher refuses to acknowledge the term and the benefits of it but will use the same technique and call it something else while condemning those who use or teach using the term. 

    The reason for even starting this post is to get others motivated to interact with each other. As of one hour ago 15 people have read this thread which was started yesterday. So there are viewers out there. People interested in the subject. Only one has gotten involved with the conversation.

    Even if you think I am full of crap....leave a comment, give a thought, tell me to mind my own business or express your desire to learn more about the voice and start asking and answering questions. Get involved. 

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2 hours ago, MDEW said:

And yes, it does get a little frustrating when the same question is asked by several new members when all they would have had to do is look at the other posts from that day and a few days before to get a relevant answer(this was when we had more active members). At the same time it is also frustrating to new members to see  answers like  "Training and Time" or "Get a teacher" to most of these similar questions.

It's the same on most discussion forums. Best solution I have seen is to let the post run for a couple of days then append it to a main post. If newbies keep asking the same question, then it is important and current for newbies. It'll stay current and attract more members.  I honestly don't see much of a problem.

2 hours ago, MDEW said:

One point to remember is that new members do not have the general knowledge expected by those who have been researching the voice for a while. Their general knowledge would be from youtube or books that are outdated or specific to a certain school of singing. Those wishing to help need to also use terms that may be contrary to accepted,or their own  pedagogy(fancy word used by vocal researchers to make them seem more intelligent and knowledgeable which just means "the words that they use between each other in a classroom environment). 

I would have actually separated out strict forums from freer forums. Anyone looking for standards can go to the strict forums. People who just want to float ideas would also have one or two freer forums to post in. If you don't allow that freedom, people start to lurk. Then discussions close down and even the lurkers disappear.

I can appreciate why standards are important, but a lot of people don't get involved or comment AT ALL because they are given the impression that they mustn't or are not up to it. Personally, I think that anybody with ears and musical taste is qualified to comment. I think that the forums can be organized in such a way to allow it, while maintaining standards. You just segregate the freewheeling stuff from the rest. There will be cross-fertilization.

2 hours ago, MDEW said:

As I mentioned before, there were times when different members were arguing the same idea when they were merely using their  own individual definition of words, or using their own point of view and refusing to really read and try to understand what the other person wrote. One example for those who have been researching and are familiar with different teaching methods. There is a concept known as Twang. I will not go into the mechanics of it here, but the main idea is a way to keep the vocal cords together and there is a distinct sound to it. One particular teacher refuses to acknowledge the term and the benefits of it but will use the same technique and call it something else while condemning those who use or teach using the term. 

There are ways to disagree that don't involve condemnation. I am sure that you know by now that I think that anyone, teacher or student, should be free to disagree with an idea, whoever the exponent is. Obviously, a beginner can't speak for a pedagogy in the way an actual maestro could, for example, but they should still be free to voice their subjective taste/opinion or disagree.

At some level, once I know what you mean by a word, the terminology becomes secondary. I used to be confused by the way some people used the words "ring" and "brightness" to describe certain sounds. Eventually I found out what they were referring to -- not what I would personally call ringing or brightness in the everyday sense. Without any discussion about the terminology, it is unlikely that I would have found out what they meant.

Another situation happened on another website: I am not very accurate singing back a single note played on, say, a guitar. Two notes, and I am a lot better. With a whole tune, I can be very accurate. I have an idea why this is the case, and I know others like me. When I made a post about it, and how it affected my approach to learning songs, a moderator PMed me, threatening to delete my post. He decided that it was not possible, and that I didn't know what was going on in my head (but he did), and nobody must know about the topic. That forum has gone quiet, too. 

There is simply not enough space for discussion or new ideas.

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1 hour ago, kickingtone said:

I would have actually separated out strict forums from freer forums. Anyone looking for standards can go to the strict forums. People who just want to float ideas would also have one or two freer forums to post in. If you don't allow that freedom, people start to lurk. Then discussions close down and even the lurkers disappear.

   This was a freer forum compared to many others and there was a separate section for TVS students. Problems started when it was made to be a stricter forum.

    No disrespect intended to the owner who has every right to have things the way he wants. And, other forums associated with specific vocal techniques would not put up with members discussing methods associated with the competing teachers with their own products....That aside.....People new to vocal techniques in general will use terms they are familiar with which, given the fact that each teacher and method uses their own words, may not be the accepted terminology of a random forum while searching for answers and a new teacher or group of people to relate to.  Discussions about training would naturally end up using words that are strictly related to individual training methods and courses that may be in competition with each other. To insist on using any set of terms will alienate new members and those new to training and trying to improve or develop their voice before they can even get an idea of what technique and training is all about.

    

 

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On 5/29/2019 at 12:21 PM, kickingtone said:

I could see it coming. The forum was becoming cliquey, and a pecking order was established. If you disagreed with certain established members, other established members ganged up on you. I had posts removed by a moderator because my opinions differed from his. That moderator started to take down some of my posts. I left the forum, and I am sure other members did, too. By time I checked back, a year later, the forum was just moderators talking among themselves.

 

More likely someone posting complete and utter rubbish about vocal techniques, that being so untrue got the backs up of people who have spent over 20 years of training study and practice to someone who is just pratting at it. Such untrue techniques would make the forum look such a decrease that post would need to be removed

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32 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

More likely someone posting complete and utter rubbish about vocal techniques, that being so untrue got the backs up of people who have spent over 20 years of training study and practice to someone who is just pratting at it. Such untrue techniques would make the forum look such a decrease that post would need to be removed

      It does not matter as long as the posts were respectful. You still have respected vocal coaches from all genres whose approach and views are widely different. Going back even to the beginning of the teaching of vocal technique you were provided with vague terms that were meant to give a direction to new students. Many of these ideas and vague terms are now considered as rubbish to some coaches and brilliant ideas to others and still used.   

     On the other hand if someone is calling another persons ideas or point of view "Utter rubbish" instead of considering a different way of thinking about things or pointing out where the individual may be getting off track, then That person is the one who is being disrespectful to the community and the art. Not the one who is trying to provide a new or different view of vocal improvement.

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32 minutes ago, MDEW said:

      It does not matter as long as the posts were respectful. You still have respected vocal coaches from all genres whose approach and views are widely different. Going back even to the beginning of the teaching of vocal technique you were provided with vague terms that were meant to give a direction to new students. Many of these ideas and vague terms are now considered as rubbish to some coaches and brilliant ideas to others and still used.   

     On the other hand if someone is calling another persons ideas or point of view "Utter rubbish" instead of considering a different way of thinking about things or pointing out where the individual may be getting off track, then That person is the one who is being disrespectful to the community and the art. Not the one who is trying to provide a new or different view of vocal improvement.

You are indeed entitled to your own opinions, But rubbish or not! I will go off of the terminology of words and techniques and practice that have been done for the last several thousand years and not what has come about over the last decade

This is what so many real singer and teachers find frustrating, the level of nonsense out there

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40 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

You are indeed entitled to your own opinions, But rubbish or not! I will go off of the terminology of words and techniques and practice that have been done for the last several thousand years and not what has come about over the last decade

This is what so many real singer and teachers find frustrating, the level of nonsense out there

       Read what was written. Think about it. Maybe read a few times to understand. The ideas are the same and has been for thousands of years. The way to express those ideas are what has changed. Why? Because the language has changed and the culture, because people have changed and the way people accept and retain information has changed. Knowledge has also changed and different progressive thoughts on singing have come into favor such as resonance and  formant tuning over sympathetic vibrations or physical mechanics to guide the singer in training

      Whether you call a configuration Twang or Bright and forward or express it as "singing In the MASK" or feel a  Vibration on the lips or call it vocal cord compression  or call it Witches Cackle it is all the same thing using the same vocal mechanics.  The nonsense is that we are now engaged in a sort of dispute over an imaginary scenario which no one knows which side was spouting rubbish. Pretty much the same reason this forum degenerated.

      

     

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      On second thought......Lets go with your idea.

Enlighten us on vocal pedagogy. Give some examples of what you would call rubbish and what is sound scientific research. After all most of us are here to learn. I am no teacher. I freely admit that. Just another person who sings and tries to improve and is willing to help others. I could be wrong about my whole approach to singing(and helping others).

    I reply to posts because there are few others who will, whether they be teachers or not.

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19 hours ago, MDEW said:

  The ideas are the same and has been for thousands of years. The way to express those ideas are what has changed.

 

19 hours ago, MDEW said:

      On second thought......Lets go with your idea.

Enlighten us on vocal pedagogy. Give some examples of what you would call rubbish and what is sound scientific research. After all most of us are here to learn. I am no teacher. I freely admit that. Just another person who sings and tries to improve and is willing to help others. I could be wrong about my whole approach to singing(and helping others).

    I reply to posts because there are few others who will, whether they be teachers or not.

That like saying there not called files that run on programs anymore they are just called them bough apps. Well what the hells an app! not very pacific is it

Like when I was in the choir, Simon said to sing high notes I use falestto and to sing low note I use the diaphragm, drag you feet Pete was pulling facing and growling in the mirror, when I asked him what he was doing is he said the conductor or my other choir says to use vocal fry as a warm up. Another member on this forum says he can not sing like Bruno mars because Bruno mars is a tenor and he he's a Baritone and when he tries to sing high notes he well always end up with a dark tone from the chest

All of which utter rubbish!

Vocal petogogy

Well wikipida says Vocal pedagogy covers a broad range of aspects of singing, ranging from the physiological process of vocal production to the artistic aspects of interpretation of songs from different genres or historical eras.

Off the top of my head things like chest, head, falestto sound color twang resonance placement, Basically anything that would change the sound with out changing the notes or valves and consistent

 

Anyway back to the topic title

On 5/29/2019 at 12:21 PM, kickingtone said:

Another situation happened on another website: I am not very accurate singing back a single note played on, say, a guitar. Two notes, and I am a lot better. With a whole tune, I can be very accurate. I have an idea why this is the case, and I know others like me. When I made a post about it, and how it affected my approach to learning songs, a moderator PMed me, threatening to delete my post. He decided that it was not possible, and that I didn't know what was going on in my head (but he did), and nobody must know about the topic. That forum has gone quiet, too. 

Surlly not the voices inside was it:24:

This forum was it?:bouncy: https://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/VocalsLiveSound/acapella-119/32496570-more-vocal-placement-transition-practice

And remember to tap the spade well against the blades of the mixer to make sure all the sand and cerment is off of it, then run like buggery

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1 hour ago, Silly Little Man! said:

That like saying there not called files that run on programs anymore they are just called them bough apps. Well what the hells an app! not very pacific is it

Like when I was in the choir, Simon said to sing high notes I use falestto and to sing low note I use the diaphragm, drag you feet Pete was pulling facing and growling in the mirror, when I asked him what he was doing is he said the conductor or my other choir says to use vocal fry as a warm up. Another member on this forum says he can not sing like Bruno mars because Bruno mars is a tenor and he he's a Baritone and when he tries to sing high notes he well always end up with a dark tone from the chest

All of which utter rubbish!

Vocal petogogy

Well wikipida says Vocal pedagogy covers a broad range of aspects of singing, ranging from the physiological process of vocal production to the artistic aspects of interpretation of songs from different genres or historical eras.

Off the top of my head things like chest, head, falestto sound color twang resonance placement, Basically anything that would change the sound with out changing the notes or valves and consistent

 

Anyway back to the topic title

       

Pedagogy (/ˈpɛdəɡɒi, -ɡi, -ɡɒɡi/) (most commonly understood as the approach to teaching) refers more broadly to the theory and practice of education, and how this influences the growth of learners. Pedagogy, taken as an academic discipline, is the study of how knowledge and skills are imparted in an educational context, and it considers the interactions that take place during learning. Pedagogies vary greatly, as they reflect the different social, political, cultural contexts from which they emerge.[1] Pedagogy is the act of teaching. [2]Theories of pedagogy increasingly identify the student as an agent, and the teacher as a facilitator. Conventional western pedagogies, however, view the teacher as knowledge holder and student as the recipient of knowledge (described by Paulo Freire as "banking methods"[3]).

"Pedagogies vary greatly, as they reflect the different social, political, cultural contexts from which they emerge.[1] Pedagogy is the act of teaching. [2]Theories of pedagogy increasingly identify the student as an agent, and the teacher as a facilitator. "

Pedagogy (/ˈpɛdəɡɒi, -ɡi, -ɡɒɡi/) (most commonly understood as "the approach to teaching")

     In other words......One school will use one set of Terms(Words) and another will use another set of Terms(words) that apply strictly to their own definition within THAT schools pedagogy. 

 " Instructive strategies are governed by the pupil's background knowledge and experience, situation, and environment, as well as learning goals set by the student and teacher. One example would be the Socratic method.[6]  "

 

Part of being able to TEACH new students is to interpret within your own PEDAGOGY the TERMS that the STUDENT uses and understands within HIS vocabulary so he/she can understand YOU.

1 hour ago, Silly Little Man! said:

Another member on this forum says he can not sing like Bruno mars because Bruno mars is a tenor and he he's a Baritone and when he tries to sing high notes he well always end up with a dark tone from the chest

       This is a person New to singing and training the voice. If you were a coach you would understand why he says this and not condemn him for using what you believe is incorrect terms. This is an example of a STUDENT. He should not be expected to use any vocal terms correctly at a beginning point. He is someone looking to be Taught....Not the one expected to do the teaching.

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43 minutes ago, MDEW said:

 This is a person New to singing and training the voice. If you were a coach you would understand why he says this and not condemn him for using what you believe is incorrect terms. This is an example of a STUDENT. He should not be expected to use any vocal terms correctly at a beginning point. He is someone looking to be Taught....Not the one expected to do the teaching.

The point I am making is that he has more then likely picked it up from some rubbish off youtube as he was more then likely searching for free tips online

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25 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

The point I am making is that he has more then likely picked it up from some rubbish off youtube as he was more then likely searching for free tips online

 Of course he did. Just like most other people do now. Then  he looked for better information from a FORUM for singers. Hoping someone HERE would point him in a better direction. THAT is the whole point of a forum.

   What he finds is someone who will not help him because he does not already know about a subject he is wanting to learn.

   Isn't that what you came here for? To learn something you do not already know?

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3 hours ago, MDEW said:

   Isn't that what you came here for? To learn something you do not already know?

Sure. But another thing that makes these forums a waste of time is these 5 minute wonerbee wonder boys come on these forums ask for advice and are given sound advice and simply dont take it, they ever carry on with the same pointless endever like uploading another song they have sang or vanish from the forum all together

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12 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

Sure. But another thing that makes these forums a waste of time is these 5 minute wonerbee wonder boys come on these forums ask for advice and are given sound advice and simply dont take it, they ever carry on with the same pointless endever like uploading another song they have sang or vanish from the forum all together

     The reason I started this thread is to try and stop this forum from being a waste of time. So far only 2 people have responded to this thread. And neither of them are teachers. Kickingtone does want to help and has given advice and comments. That is a step in the right direction.

     Giving reasons why it is a waste of time....is just that.....another waste of time.

So I guess no one wants to help and actually give good advice to struggling singers or discuss how you train and why, what works and what does not.

 

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17 hours ago, MDEW said:

     The reason I started this thread is to try and stop this forum from being a waste of time. So far only 2 people have responded to this thread. And neither of them are teachers. Kickingtone does want to help and has given advice and comments. That is a step in the right direction.

     Giving reasons why it is a waste of time....is just that.....another waste of time.

So I guess no one wants to help and actually give good advice to struggling singers or discuss how you train and why, what works and what does not.

 

But this forum is dieing or has died for a reason.

I remember a while ago the big chief Robin B@@terd talking it all down, saying it not worth doing can't compete with the muppits on youtube doing it for $30/ $40hr (that's teachers giving out crap advice we discussed above from teachers that have had no form of training them self). I remember him saying it will be a case of where these proper teachers says that's its lights out I'm out of hear. And that's just what I see him doing sooner or latter just coming along with out any notice and pressing the close forum button. AND FORUM GONE THERE WILL BE NO MORE MODERN VOCALIST WORLD!!!

I mean the whole idea was set up as a business plan and not just a free forum for the likes of us to exchange ideas. This worked in the way that someone new to singing would come along hear and ask how do I improve then RB and verius other moderators would say you need training and then recommend the 4 pillars and then on after take lessons with them though out the course. That was the whole idea of this forum was it not! A businesses plan for the 4 pillars and not just a free site to exchange ideas, because with the big chief R&B gone and the other teachers trying to make a quick buck out of him on the side, them gone as well, I really feel there plans have been put into motion and I remember the words "that's it light out I'm out of hear". Because that's it if he can just remove an entire 30 days worth of posting with out notice or with out giving a dam to though premium member who paid for thing like having there singing reviewed, and he can just pulls the plug like that simply because he did not like the way the topic of conversations was going then I see this forum coming to an end sharpish. And that was another thing that turned away a lot of members after RB removed all the data

I know MD, how about you volunteer to take over and run the forum, and then you can moderate it and bring the topic of conversations back into the way they should be.

Nar seconds though forget it! Knowing him he will probably want something daft like $10 million for it or something

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      In the beginning this forum was free and meant to be a place for SINGERS to discuss SINGING. There was already a forum for teachers to discuss their singing methods and other forums where you had to already buy the product to be a member. One of the unspoken rules was to not endorse your own or another's product. Another unspoken rule was to be respectful to each other. This included the owner himself. A free discussion between coaches students and singers in every stage of development.

     Sure, there were discussions and debates about different approaches to singing and training and debates about terminology, but it was mostly friendly and members had respect for each other. Most of the members who were already teachers kept that information to themselves and would give advice and offer help to those who seemed truly interested in progressing as a singer. They would not actively seek new "Students" but would offer private skype discussions. A one on one situation to help a member with certain problems or to further explain an idea that was beyond that members understanding. This was a friend to friend talk, not a Teacher to Student lesson with a fee.

   The forum grew. A few members started mentioning in posts that they were teachers. THEN, moderators would remind them of the unspoken rule. This was not to be a place to advertise or promote themselves or products but to discuss singing and training techniques and ideas to improve themselves and others. The forum grew more. 

   More of the teachers started revealing themselves as teachers. Mostly, at that point to help give credentials to the ideas or techniques or exercises they were giving to help other members or in discussions about how the voice works. Still they were being respectful to each other and NOT promoting any product or belittling any other coaches or methods. Still no promoting of the Owners product either. At least NOT on this forum. The forum grew. The teachers were again reminded that this is not a place to promote products but to help themselves and others to progress and discuss things.

    This was an on-going process years in the making. I am trying to make a long story short....It can not be done to get the whole story and the plot to it. Sorry.....

    A few members started blatantly comparing programs and teachers. Again, members were warned to NOT do this. NOW the line of respect between different methods was being crossed....The second unspoken rule. Of course teachers and students of these methods would defend their method or attack or belittle the other method.

    Other members started mentioning their own course or their own websites.....These members were warned again..... after repeated advertising, Yes, some were banned. 

   Still the owner did not advertise his own product on THIS forum.

  In the mean time other products and methods were growing in popularity. This forum was to be universal.... The modern vocalist WORLD forum.

   The debates about different methods continued. The advertising and repeated mentioning of different products and methods continued......Only AFTER other people promoted different schools, methods,websites and products did the OWNER of this forum start to advertise on THIS forum.

    And why not? after all, these other schools, methods and products were being advertised on a forum HE was paying for.  

   Then people started bashing him because he was advertising on his own forum....The nerve of this guy to advertise on his own forum.....can you believe that?

   Maybe now I can jump ahead a little......Teachers and students from different schools,methods and products were using terms that were exclusive(in the vocal teaching field) to individual products and methods. The debates were usually because they each were saying the same thing and refused to acknowledge or learn the other terminology.

    The other products were KNOWN by the certain words and phrases that they used. They were markedly different One word would mean a configuration of several different muscle groups in the vocal tract or a certain distinct sound. The same word in another "School, or Method" would mean a different configuration or sound. In order to try to stop this confusion the owner tried to get people to use the WORDS,TERMS, or PHRASES used in his own program. 

    Again.....Why not? He is paying for this forum.....The other methods use words and phrases with definitions that are exclusive to their product.....Phrases used were advertising a competing product.

   Members would be cautioned at first to NOT use phrases that were used exclusively by certain other methods. Some refused and some could not grasp an idea without using these terms or phrases. AFTER several warnings or cautions some of the members started lashing out at the owner of this forum.

   It was AFTER all of this that the forum became a PAID forum.

     This was even BEFORE the real trouble started here.

     Yes, some members were banned because they continued to advertise and promote themselves AS teachers. And some members were banned NOT because they used the phrases of competing products but because of the bitter and sometimes demeaning comments to the OWNER and about the owner because they were warned about using the exclusive phrases of a competing method or product.     This was still BEFORE the real trouble.

    Some of those members were banned............and allowed back after some time.

  This forum was started in 2008.   I joined in 2012  The paid reviews did not start until I had been on this forum for a few years, so at the very least 2014. The real trouble did not start until a few years ago.  So for 8 years this guy  put up with all this BS and kept a forum that allowed coaches and students to interact with each other, learn from each other for FREE and tried to keep it separated from prejudice of one method over another or one style over another and free of advertising one method over another .   You call this man a Robin B@@terd? 

    After the forum became a paid forum a lot of the members turned on him.....How dare he want some input back from what he has given for free and paid for out of his pocket for 8 years......So what? How dare he advertise a product that was developed and refined through the interactions within this forum on this forum. 

   Yes other things happened that lead to trouble. One is that people lost respect for vocal methods in general. Lost respect for each other through the refusal to see that they were saying the same thing only using different ways to say it, or just generally being categorized as being FOR one person and AGAINST another just because you think breath control is better than cord closure when they govern each other if they are not the same thing.

    Anyway.... this idea of one person being against another lead to verbal attacks, some were against the owner. 

    The FIRST deletion of posts were because of these verbal attacks ......Of course other members were outraged that a post would be deleted(some not knowing what the post was about).....and other verbal attacks were again directed at the owner for deleting that post. It progressed from there. Actually it declined from there.

If you have stayed with me ...... Yes, there ended up being and idea of being part of a clique. Unfortunately just like we have all over the world to day....if you believe a thing people think you are part of one group or another just because of one opinion you have on one subject.  Or one opinion or stance on one subject means you are FOR a particular person.

     This is not the case..... and I do not change my opinion on a subject because I like or dislike a person who has his own opinion. I lost a friend because of this type of BS on this forum.

      Because I believe in the validity of a product does not mean I agree or disagree on any other subject.

     About advertising the FOUR PILLARS of SINGING.......... it is not rubbish. 

    I Believe in the PRODUCT. ......   No matter what I believe about the author does not influence my opinion.    He also believes in the product and he should. It was refined here on this very forum. This forum is not rubbish either, At least it does not have to be.

    

     

   

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MDEW

(I did read you post from beginning to end).

I recall it a bit differently. I'll give examples...

Forum was very active. Do you remember that moderator who claimed that he was a vocal teacher and would unlock your ENTIRE vocal range in 6 months? Do you remember that I gave my very unpopular OPINION that I would expect it to take much longer that 6 months to unlock one's vocal range? For that, site admin deleted my posts and threatened to ban me. He told me to respect the "maestros" on this site. That was the word he used, "maestro". Moderators (including yourself, MDEW) were all on his side. Who did this kickingtone think he was?

Honestly, wasn't this more about a clique trying to protect the livelihood of a clique member, than facing facts?

Fast forward. Forum has slumped. Owner is complaining about QUACKS setting up on YouTube, offering cheap courses, and exploiting people's unrealistic expectations. Also, people were not sticking with their courses, expecting amazing results at short notice. Meanwhile, the unlock-your-entire-range-in-six-months coach (whose top note seemed to be a croaky Bb4, while pointing desperately at the heavens) had left after one of those spats you mentioned, and repaid the previous loyalty he had received by turning against the forum. 

Another example involved some science.

During a debate about voice production, a moderator used "the linear model" as evidence to back his position. I pointed out that I didn't think that the model could be accurate because it could not explain how you could sing the fundamental for lower than C4. (Basically, the lower the tessitura of a wind instrument, the longer the tube, and it turns out that even a quarter wave of the C4 fundamental is too long to fit in a male vocal cavity. But a wave spectrum clearly shows the fundamental for C4).

Instead of trying to find more evidence to support his position, down came my posts, with a threat to ban me for "confusing everyone". Let's face it, once again, it had nothing to do with facts, but with injuring the feelings of people who think they are infallible. When such people get into a clique, the worse the effect.

First these people managed to turn everyone else off. Then, with nobody to patronize, they started in earnest on themselves. Then they, too, couldn't stand one another, and gradually left.

 

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   I joined in in 2012.  This was after the first group of "Teachers" had been warned about advertising, continued and had been banned. Some came back around the time I joined. The other major "Methods" had just started to gain popularity. At this point also, the other forums that I mentioned for "Teachers" to discuss things among themselves without needing to explain things to beginners was thriving and included the major players in the upcoming "Methodology" split and individual programs were being developed. The major players were friends and colleges at this point.

   Former moderators were mentioned in posts after I joined so I do not know if one of these is the one who deleted your posts or if it was a current moderator when I joined. And concerning the teacher who was advertising a gain in 6 months, I do not know if he was here and left/banned before or after I joined.... but when I joined advertising was not to be done on the forum and cautions and reminders were stated about this.

 EDIT:     "Do you remember that moderator who claimed that he was a vocal teacher and would unlock your ENTIRE vocal range in 6 months? Do you remember that I gave my very unpopular OPINION that I would expect it to take much longer that 6 months to unlock one's vocal range?"

 

(a piece of information) To someone new to the idea of training the voice, a gain of usable singing notes can be achieved by 1. realizing that the use of Falsetto is allowed and "Part" of your range. This takes a few seconds if you never tried to "Sing" in falsetto. or if you refused to sing in falsetto because it sounded too odd to you or you do not like the sound of it and were then given permission to use it while singing. This can add 1 whole octave in a few minutes. 2 If you did use falsetto, realizing that there is a way to "Switch" from a normal sounding voice to Falsetto without an apparent "Break" you can add that octave to your singing voice in a few minutes of one on one with a coach. 3 Finding out that there are TWO basic muscle groups  in your voice box.One responsible for engaging more muscle tissue in the vocal cords and ONE that stretches the vocal cords. There is another group of muscles that moves the cords together and holds them in place. Realizing that one group is favored over another when producing  the "Falsetto" sound and the "Chest" sound and learning that you can  engage BOTH groups at the same time will add "Chest" range to your  singing voice.  This can also take only a few minutes if you get the proper instruction on how to do that. The "Training and exercises" helps you gain control of these groups and adjust for specific pitches, sounds and durations of notes while singing.

 If you regarding giving information as UNLOCKING then a few minutes will UNLOCK range.   But no I do not agree that it will be usable and SOUND great in less than 6 months.

.

 

recap: After the first group of teachers left/banned etc....for advertising and disagreements, different "Methods" were being introduced to the public. And new research was being done in "the scientific" community. Outside of the forum there were already groups of people who drifted to one method or another and groups who insisted on new scientific research vs. those who stuck to "Traditional" training methods which may have nothing to do with "Physical realities" but was more of intuition and abstract ideas as guidance to controlling the sounds produced by singers. And still others who believed that the "Science" was BS, The Traditional instruction and training was BS and any "Method" was BS and was just out to make money. And there were those who were out to "Bust wide open" all this BS concerning vocal science, methods, and moneymaking schemes about singing and give the new found "Secret" away for free. AND there were some who just wanted to gain enough insight to help themselves and others gain a few singing notes so they could sing songs from whatever genre they preferred.

    There were members from all of these groups found here when I joined and at least on this forum the interaction was for the most part respectful and members were helping each other to understand how the singing voice works and how to train and why.

   Yes, there were "Cliques"...... even if you were new to all of this when you opened your mouth or gave an opinion or tried to cut through the confusion you would be labeled, but still regarded with some sort of respect. at least on the surface and discussions were discussions and not debates.

    The forum itself was free to the public and different members from all genres, schools of thought and different points in their development were giving and receiving reviews of their singing and feedback on how to improve and where they may still be having problems and points to consider to resolve them.

    With the different groups and "methods" came different definitions and different ideas.

    It is a LOOOONG story and why I tried to cut out some things....along with NOT trying to lay blame but give an accounting without further seeming to take "Sides".

     The debates over these definitions and people wanting to "Prove" their point by using accepted research while others were calling the Research BS was just another needle in the haystack. Not to mention other coaches that were again advertising themselves and attacking other methods...... Still the forum was free to all and the Owner kept himself away from the forum at that point. It was not until mud sling started that he decided that IF others were going to use this forum as advertisement to themselves that He started to advertise and promote His product.

   People were not only attacking other methodology but personal attacks started showing up.

   Yes moderators were overstepping their bounds. Yes people were defending themselves and Yes others were using verbal attacks aimed at specific individuals. AND this is when the forum became a paid for forum. Maybe if you had to PAY to have the right to make posts, Just MAYBE you would have a little more respect and really want to take part in making the forum better.

     That just made the people more bitter towards each other and the forum and the owner. 

     And there was still more crap going on behind the scenes.....But there were also others who started manifesting their bitterness with just pure attacks and intent to cause trouble. People were seen as taking sides and making trouble when they just wanted to get a better understanding of what research and information was correct and what was BS.

      And still the major deletion of  posts that gave this forum the bad reputation was after the loss of control and the effort of the owner to regain it. People are still using this to discredit the owner. Until then Moderators were used and relied on to "Keep Peace".

   

   Edit and statement:   I do not agree with the way things were handle in the past. But, I do believe there were people who intentionally started threads to bate a debate and insisted on research  to dispute it while not understanding what the research said. And who would target terms/words that were specific to individual methodologies just to debate definitions outside those methodologies to discredit other members and vocal research in general.

 Edit again. I was also one who was labeled as "Taking sides" for things that I wanted no part of .  Just because I defend my opinion about singing does not mean I sided with someone else about deleting posts.

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Well people have different ideas about what is and isn't acceptable on a forum.

Myself, I like rigorous debate.

Say your opinion. Say what you disagree with. Provide supporting evidence. Provide any credentials, by all means. Sing. Produce examples. Let your posts and contributions speak for themselves. A thread does not have to end in agreement or consensus. A good thread can have points on either side of the argument, and readers should be credited with the intelligence to make their own choices, and base them on whatever they like.

That's my recipe for good content.

In my opinion, the line has been crossed when somebody says, "you MUST believe my OPINION" because it is FACT...I've been in this business for X amount of years....you MUST accept the examples I have posted and SHUT UP...I am a MAESTRO,...what I say is FACT...you are stubborn and disruptive to  disagree with my OPINION...BELIEVE MY FRIEND...he is a MAESTRO....what he says is FACT...you are stubborn and disruptive to  disagree with his OPINION...SO I WILL DELETE YOUR POSTS AND BAN YOU IF YOU CONTINUE TO DISAGREE. Only someone with a very weak position acts like that. If you have a compelling position, you can post it and walk away....no tantrums...no name calling...only your relevant points, speaking for themselves.

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51 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

Well people have different ideas about what is and isn't acceptable on a forum.

Myself, I like rigorous debate.

Say your opinion. Say what you disagree with. Provide supporting evidence. Provide any credentials, by all means. Sing. Produce examples. Let your posts and contributions speak for themselves. A thread does not have to end in agreement or consensus. A good thread can have points on either side of the argument, and readers should be credited with the intelligence to make their own choices, and base them on whatever they like.

That's my recipe for good content.

In my opinion, the line has been crossed when somebody says, "you MUST believe my OPINION" because it is FACT...I've been in this business for X amount of years....you MUST accept the examples I have posted and SHUT UP...I am a MAESTRO,...what I say is FACT...you are stubborn and disruptive to  disagree with my OPINION...BELIEVE MY FRIEND...he is a MAESTRO....what he says is FACT...you are stubborn and disruptive to  disagree with his OPINION...SO I WILL DELETE YOUR POSTS AND BAN YOU IF YOU CONTINUE TO DISAGREE. Only someone with a very weak position acts like that. If you have a compelling position, you can post it and walk away....no tantrums...no name calling...only your relevant points, speaking for themselves.

"Say your opinion. Say what you disagree with. Provide supporting evidence. Provide any credentials, by all means. Sing. Produce examples. Let your posts and contributions speak for themselves. A thread does not have to end in agreement or consensus. A good thread can have points on either side of the argument, and readers should be credited with the intelligence to make their own choices, and base them on whatever they like."

 

Exactly. This is my opinion also and what I would like to see happening. 

Aside from occasional instances(of moderators overstepping bounds) There were times that sound research and fact was twisted intentionally because of  varying definitions outside "Vocal" pedagogy. Not to mention that which  was deemed as facts in the professional world of voice research was being questioned even by those doing the research. Most of the deletions and bannings were do to disrespectful and uncalled for personal attacks and this was after different individuals expressed "Breaking the world of vocal pedagogy". In other words, they had it out for the "scientific" vocal community and established teachers and programs. Even if you could back up a fact by research and "published Papers" your fact was not a fact.

 Several people got caught in the crossfire by just defending their opinion while others were literally "At war".

 Depending on when you came onto the scene you could been targeted as an enemy by thinking outside the box, so to speak. And there were several who thought outside the box, including myself. If I agreed with a moderators statement on singing it had nothing to do with siding with him against any other member or some false loyalty or being in any "Clique".

   And I would not change my opinion because I was friends with someone who had a different opinion on vocal technique or because someone was currently having a disagreement with another member who held the same opinion.  But I was accused of "Taking sides" against someone who I respected as a person and siding with someone about an incident that had nothing to do with vocal pedagogy.

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I think that science and scientists can be quite militant.

The scientific community has its accreditation system, so all that it has to do is post its findings in its various journals, together with the names of reviewers and their qualifications. They should have the right to use the system to say whether a point of view IS OR IS NOT SCIENTIFIC, but I do not agree with attempts to silence non-scientists who hold different opinions, or force science down everyone's throat.

I also disagree with pseudo-science --- non-scientists claiming that their non-scientific opinions are SCIENCE without the approval of scientists.

Ideas should be labelled correctly as scientific or non-scientific, but scientists do not have the right to silence the other side. People should be allowed to choose, not forced to accept science. Unfortunately, science has taken on a god-like status, even (or perhaps, especially) in the minds of people who are not scientists. Then it becomes dogma, and debate is pointless.

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