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4 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

I also disagree with pseudo-science --- non-scientists claiming that their non-scientific opinions are SCIENCE without the approval of scientists.

 I also agree with this.

 I also do not agree with someone calling another's opinion or idea rubbish without even trying to understand why the other person would have their opinion.

 Science, psuedo-science , intuition or sensation/placement in vocal training or improvement does not matter. What does matter is that you have a way to progress and a direction to go in and a way to check your progress.

 

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59 minutes ago, MDEW said:

I also do not agree with someone calling another's opinion or idea rubbish without even trying to understand why the other person would have their opinion.

Some people think that it adds to the strength of their conviction and argument if they rant, swear and try to cut people off. Maybe they also are impressed by people who do that. That is their prerogative.

I think it only shows limitation in perspective (and, although it is frowned upon to say so, limitation in intelligence). I mean it as a fact, though, not as a put down. I'd rather listen to someone who can at least follow ideas they don't necessarily agree with. It shows they have considered more angles in forming their own opinions, and are more likely to come to intelligent conclusions.

59 minutes ago, MDEW said:

 Science, psuedo-science , intuition or sensation/placement in vocal training or improvement does not matter. What does matter is that you have a way to progress and a direction to go in and a way to check your progress.

Yup. I agree that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Once the pudding is made, it should be judged on its content, consistency and taste, not on who made it and by what method.

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2 hours ago, kickingtone said:

Yup. I agree that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Once the pudding is made, it should be judged on its content, consistency and taste, not on who made it and by what method.

    Interesting that you would put it like that. I always thought of producing different sounds vocally as using different ingredients. example: drop the larynx, add twang or vocal compression more air pressure. for one sound. Raise larynx, open your throat, less air pressure for another sound etc.

    I guess the point is moot though.....I got the answer I was looking for in this thread. It seem that it is me and you only who are left that even cares about discussing the voice on this forum. 

   If any one else cared they would have commented. 

   If you want to actually discuss things privately you are welcome to click on my profile pick and contact me that way. No one else will be subjected to my rubbish.

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8 hours ago, MDEW said:

   I joined in in 2012.  This was after the first group of "Teachers" had been warned about advertising, continued and had been banned. Some came back around the time I joined. The other major "Methods" had just started to gain popularity. At this point also, the other forums that I mentioned for "Teachers" to discuss things among themselves without needing to explain things to beginners was thriving and included the major players in the upcoming "Methodology" split and individual programs were being developed. The major players were friends and colleges at this point.

What where the names of the forums?

 

5 hours ago, MDEW said:

You call this man a Robin B@@terd? 

This went into detail on hear a lot at the time, you remember or not?

 

Another thing was...............................I mentioned taking out Bret manning cource, not because it was better then the big chiefs or not because it was better value for money or anything but because I could download it when I had free internet access and save the data on my hard drive as opposed to streaming all of the four pillars and loosing all my data allowance for the mounth. Even though the bret manning forum shut down because (like this one) they did not like the critisum they where getting. the mention of BM on hear, I was told to do one!

 

Why dont you start you own forum MD and see how far you get with it?

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13 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

What where the names of the forums?

At that point in time...I believe it was The voice council. there may be another by that name now that has nothing to do with the other.

19 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

Why dont you start you own forum MD and see how far you get with it?

 People would get pissed off quick. Even things like Bluddy B@@tard would get you banned.  Sorry I do not tolerate disrespect at all. And that is just my opinion, but it would be MY forum and my rules.  Robert was a saint to put up with what he did put up with. There was still more going on in the forum to cause Robert to insist on using his terminology and examples from his program  over other Methods.

 

 I can take constructive criticism. I can take someone telling me that I suck rocks as far as singing goes. But just to call someone a b@@tard because you came into a conflict years in the making when everyone was bringing up the past and expressing hurt feelings does not give enough information to make that kind of a judgement against someone.

 

I do realize that some people do use that type of language just like I would call someone else buddy or pal but I always felt that it was a form of disrespect.

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5 hours ago, MDEW said:

But just to call someone a b@@tard because you came into a conflict years in the making when everyone was bringing up the past and expressing hurt feelings does not give enough information to make that kind of a judgement against someone.

I dont think you know who I am do you!

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8 hours ago, MDEW said:

    Interesting that you would put it like that. I always thought of producing different sounds vocally as using different ingredients. example: drop the larynx, add twang or vocal compression more air pressure. for one sound. Raise larynx, open your throat, less air pressure for another sound etc.

    I guess the point is moot though.....I got the answer I was looking for in this thread. It seem that it is me and you only who are left that even cares about discussing the voice on this forum. 

   If any one else cared they would have commented. 

   If you want to actually discuss things privately you are welcome to click on my profile pick and contact me that way. No one else will be subjected to my rubbish.

I think that these forums could revive. I did a google search and found that folk were asking for reviews even on reddit. So the interest is still there.

But these forums went through a phase where any review request was immediately carted off to the paid section. That model doesn't seem to have worked, but, if it has changed, nobody has really been told -- it has not been publicized. There may be a lot of potential users out there who got turned away.

This is what I was talking about earlier, when I suggested that ordinary free reviews be allowed, as well as the paid ones. The free reviews would bring in the traffic and volumes,  and some proportion of posters would go on to ask for paid reviews. Would you pay for a review from a slow moving or almost empty forum? You have to get the place back buzzing again.

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5 hours ago, Silly Little Man! said:

I dont think you know who I am do you!

That is OK. I don't think you know who I am either. And it should not matter.

But I do know some of the other names you have used on this forum and I remember how long ago you started to learn about vocal technique and it is not long enough to know whether or not a coach is teaching rubbish or if he knows what he is talking about.

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3 hours ago, kickingtone said:

This is what I was talking about earlier, when I suggested that ordinary free reviews be allowed, as well as the paid ones. The free reviews would bring in the traffic and volumes,  and some proportion of posters would go on to ask for paid reviews. Would you pay for a review from a slow moving or almost empty forum? You have to get the place back buzzing again.

     Any member is allowed to give a review. I agree that if you are paying for a professional review you should get one from a qualified coach/voice teacher.

     Getting a review from a random member is just as helpful if they are being honest and respectful. There are a lot of people out there and on this forum who are qualified to give an honest assessment of a singer who wishes to improve. I know of a few members on this forum who would not give a review because they thought they may be hurting someone by giving bad advice .

    More members need to take part in this forum.

    I had hoped that a few of the others would have responded by just stopping in and saying..."Yeah, I'm still here." but it looks like it is just me, you and 2 cats in a dust bin.

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7 minutes ago, The Future Vocalist said:

I'm still here but I haven't posted in over a year because the forum seemed dead.

 Glad to see you. I lost my internet for 6 months or so and could not take time to use other sources to post anything. I would lurk whenever I got the chance but did not see too much traffic.

Thanks for responding. 

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33 minutes ago, The Future Vocalist said:

I'm still here but I haven't posted in over a year because the forum seemed dead.

I think it can revive with enough effort and the right attitude.

The big lesson, I think, is to leave it to members to decide what advice they want to take and what they want to leave.

In the past, people tried to force the issue by running one another down.

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9 hours ago, MDEW said:

 and I remember how long ago you started to learn about vocal technique and it is not long enough to know whether or not a coach is teaching rubbish or if he knows what he is talking about.

Considering you don't know where I am at now (or do you?)
And how much training and studding I have done in that time
You are wrong!

But the criticism was not about the teacher teaching rubbish on this occasion was it!

 

But I can understand your doubting
Because this is a jells little didums job (ive got more talent then you LOL coz your suck ta rock rocks)
Born out of bigotry and arrogance people refuse to believe that I have overtaken them, nothing to do with spending all day talking BS on forums has to do with it LOL

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7 hours ago, kickingtone said:

In the past, people tried to force the issue by running one another down.

More likly correcting the errors of other (and that too would include your self walter mitty)

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5 hours ago, Silly Little Man! said:

Considering you don't know where I am at now (or do you?)
And how much training and studding I have done in that time
You are wrong!

But the criticism was not about the teacher teaching rubbish on this occasion was it!

 

But I can understand your doubting
Because this is a jells little didums job (ive got more talent then you LOL coz your suck ta rock rocks)
Born out of bigotry and arrogance people refuse to believe that I have overtaken them, nothing to do with spending all day talking BS on forums has to do with it LOL

Fine Silly Little Man.....you are the best singer in the world.....How do you do it?

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I don't, I mean I don't in reality fool myself like silly little man or the rest of the muppit musicians that find it easier to criticism and condemn and ridicule the hard work and progress of other in the words of you suck you are a losses you will never ever become any better no matter how much you try now pack it all in silly little man before you make a fool out of your self (go hang your self!); yup met those ass holes toooo!!!!!! the jimmys@@tforbrains forum is a classic example of where out friend Walter mitty (formally know as the traditional silly little man managed to relies what bastards they where and no longer posts his great 10 second little clips of video fooled the radio star and other stuff that he has done nothing in the time to improve  https://homerecording.com/bbs/ (but my IP address is banned there, what a shame!), infact come to think of it MD there is a sticky thread hear that has had recent replies of a similar situation, a father and a brother that resented there son/ brother so much to deem him as a sad little losses when he was far greater then the pair of them would ever be when infact it was them who where the sad little looser themselves


So the answer to your question is I try to be the best I can but not claim to be more then I am
So MD, what training practice and study do you do nowerdays from your four pillars (stream only course) now you have your internet connection back up and running again?

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 I am out playing music and singing to live people who can tell me face to face whether they enjoy it or not. They ask me back and I get paid for them to hear me. If they did not enjoy it, they would not continue and find other entertainment.

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   I came here to improve my own singing because I knew I sucked even though people kept telling me it sounded good and people just have their own sound.

   I was seeking truth not someone to stroke my EGO. I got truth. I was given steps to take and direction on what to listen for in my singing and exercises to strengthen weaknesses.

   People are at different levels of progress and have different goals when they ask for reviews. If someone wants to improve enough to sing for friends and family without being embarrassed he may get less criticism/softer review than one who who is preparing for one of those  over rated TV shows.

   One problem with just telling people they can be good with a little work is that they believe they are ready for one of those TV shows when they can not fully carry a tune yet. 

   And yes there are those who believe they are a great singer and will not listen when they are informed that they still need work.

   In a review I would want hear about where I can improve, not just a pat on the back or "give up you suck". Example:  "Every time you sing the word "Mother" you are singing flat". Try singing "M-ah-th eh" instead. The UH sound in Mother tends to lower the pitch and the Ah sound is more stable and makes it easier to achieve the correct pitch."

    You may believe this is rubbish but it is not.

Here is another example of people looking for a "Review" and tips to make some one sing better....I just looked at that other forum you mentioned. There is someone looking for advice for their 7 year old daughter who supposedly is having trouble and wants to sing a particular song for a contest. 

My personal response may be "she is 7 years old and sounds fantastic(which she does). The best advice is to leave her alone."  But on the other hand she wants to WIN the contest. A coach training her to WIN the contest will pick out every little flaw that may be perceived.

And it is her parent asking for advice....The little girl might not even want to be in the contest, let alone win it.

   

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5 hours ago, MDEW said:

 I am out playing music and singing to live people who can tell me face to face whether they enjoy it or not. They ask me back and I get paid for them to hear me. If they did not enjoy it, they would not continue and find other entertainment.

Fair enough then if you are at that advanced stage

But at least you are putting the time and effort in to improve and get to that stage unlinke others on this forum we daer to mention there there names right ay. unlike the jimmyshitforbrains forum https://homerecording.com/bbs/. unlike 99.8% of muppit musisions https://www.joinmyband.co.uk/

3 hours ago, MDEW said:

  

 "Every time you sing the word "Mother" you are singing flat". Try singing "M-ah-th eh" instead. The UH sound in Mother tends to lower the pitch and the Ah sound is more stable and makes it easier to achieve the correct pitch."

Vocal fonation

Was that a hawky bolex song?

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19 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

Vocal fonation

Was that a hawky bolex song?

It was no particular song. Just an example of the type of "Tips" that would need to be added after someone asks "What is wrong with my singing or what am I doing that makes this song sound bad.

Let them know what YOU hear as "Wrong" or not pleasant and give them an idea how to fix it or what to work on.

There is way more to singing and sounding good that just matching a pitch. 

 

That other forum is not a singers forum for helping you sing better. It is musician forum for how to record better.

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9 minutes ago, MDEW said:

That other forum is not a singers forum for helping you sing better. It is musician forum for how to record better.

I cant get on there as my IP address is banned, but there is a section there for singing and review my singing, and you ask our freind walter mitty (formally know as the original silly little man) about it and he will tell you as he no longer posts there too. something along the line of "you suck you are a sad little loosser now pack it all in silly little man before you make a fool out of your self, remember we are hear to help you by giving good honest advice". When in fact its the owners/ moderators, Strean audio ltd. and Jimmy69 that cant hold a note and are the sad little suckers them selfs

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4 hours ago, Silly Little Man! said:

I cant get on there as my IP address is banned, but there is a section there for singing and review my singing, and you ask our freind walter mitty (formally know as the original silly little man) about it and he will tell you as he no longer posts there too. something along the line of "you suck you are a sad little loosser now pack it all in silly little man before you make a fool out of your self, remember we are hear to help you by giving good honest advice". When in fact its the owners/ moderators, Strean audio ltd. and Jimmy69 that cant hold a note and are the sad little suckers them selfs

I do not know any of those people over there. I do not know of any one saying those kinds of things here until after the big trouble. If they did they would have been warned and then banned. I would never tell someone to give up. At least not until they started with that attitude first. 

Now... Yes, when someone starts in on me or someone else with that attitude I will step in. Every one is in the same boat and started out knowing nothing and over time learned. It is no different for anyone else. Some may learn faster and some may refuse to learn or be taught by anyone else. That is on them.

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3 hours ago, MDEW said:

I do not know any of those people over there. I do not know of any one saying those kinds of things here until after the big trouble. If they did they would have been warned and then banned. I would never tell someone to give up. At least not until they started with that attitude first.

Ask Kickingtone about what happened over there?

And furth more MD... The mod/ owner "stean audio" has said numeruss times that no emount of pitch training can ever make anyone sing in key

When was the big trouble over hear, was I present at the time?

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4 hours ago, Silly Little Man! said:

Ask Kickingtone about what happened over there?

When was the big trouble over hear, was I present at the time?

I believe the big trouble was just before 2 cats joined.

        At the time several underlying issues were taking place. We had lots of activity and several threads were being followed and many members were taking part in conversations. New research was being conducted in the field of vocal science and different training and singing methods were gaining popularity. We had coaches and students who trained in the classic style such as opera and musical theater, Extreme singing and screamo, R-n-B, Coaches and students who trained with the ones who coached Barbara Streisand and Janis Joplin, Trained with the coach of Michael Jackson, Trained with the Coach of Layne Staley and Nancy Wilson. Let's put it this way, They trained with those who coached the biggest names in music of their day.  AND we had one of the people involved in the newest research in resonance, formant tuning and vocal health.

       At this point with JUST what I mentioned there were no less than 6 different training methods that were well established and had their own language and focus points. That is not to mention the 2 or 3 off shoots of these run by their students with their own methods that were just taking off.

       Also at this point even though, the coaches, students, beginners and those self taught had different views of singing and training, they were getting along and being civil towards each other and respected each other even when taking opposing stands on training methods and ideas on improvements.

  "there were no less than 6 different training methods that were well established and had their own language and focus points." 

An effort was being made in the Professional Vocal Research community to unify the terminology.

     One of the problems that we had here was that the members were saying the SAME thing with different language or the SAME thing with a different focus point and thought each was saying something different because of the language or point of focus. Each of them believing they were right(and they all were) would debate about it. 

     I learned more in these debates than I had reading books on the subject because there were three or four people saying the same thing in three or four different ways.   Over and Over again.

    The coaches/members debating could not recognize this because they knew they were right and refused to study what the other person was actually saying and would insist that the other was wrong and they were right.

    The professional vocal research community wanted to stop these types of debates.  If everyone talked the same language maybe they would understand each other.......

    TO BE CONTINUED......Tune in next time for the group who wanted to bring down the VOCAL TRAINING CHARLATANS.....OOOOOOH

yeah, it's late and I am tired

 

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