Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Continued:

    There were a few individuals on youtube who believed that Vocal coaches/teachers and various vocal training programs were designed and intended to just get you to buy their programs/books/videos and such or were mainly garbage. Tips or exercises given by the established teachers/programs were intended to get you to seek them as a coach by promising gains in vocal range and strength.  Lesson after lesson was given as bait to get you to come back and Pay for yet another lesson. Some of these individuals vowed to find the "Secret" to singing and give it away for free and stop the charlatans.  

   Some of them found their way to our forum.

Just think about that for a little while......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MDEW said:

Continued:

    There were a few individuals on youtube who believed that Vocal coaches/teachers and various vocal training programs were designed and intended to just get you to buy their programs/books/videos and such or were mainly garbage. Tips or exercises given by the established teachers/programs were intended to get you to seek them as a coach by promising gains in vocal range and strength.  Lesson after lesson was given as bait to get you to come back and Pay for yet another lesson. Some of these individuals vowed to find the "Secret" to singing and give it away for free and stop the charlatans.  

   Some of them found their way to our forum.

Just think about that for a little while......

LOL! I don't know if I followed all of that, but it sounds kinda bad!

Are you saying that those "individuals" believed that there is some magic bullet for learning to sing well, and that repeated lessons are a scam?

Whatever the case, I think that it is wrong for anybody to accuse ALL teachers, and it is equally wrong to defend ALL teachers.

Also, professional teachers will tell you that their profession requires extended qualifications, both in the subject matter, in communications skills and in psychology. Few people are "naturals" at all of these things. How many vocal coaches take lessons in psychology, or are actually qualified in vocal health?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

LOL! I don't know if I followed all of that, but it sounds kinda bad!

Are you saying that those "individuals" believed that there is some magic bullet for learning to sing well, and that repeated lessons are a scam?

Whatever the case, I think that it is wrong for anybody to accuse ALL teachers, and it is equally wrong to defend ALL teachers.

Also, professional teachers will tell you that their profession requires extended qualifications, both in the subject matter, in communications skills and in psychology. Few people are "naturals" at all of these things. How many vocal coaches take lessons in psychology, or are actually qualified in vocal health?

Exactly, and yes there were those who thought there was a magic bullet(so to speak) and those who were naturals that thought training was BS. More on that later also. It all comes into play of why posts were deleted and why people were banned and why people left.

 But I do not have the time to continue at this point.  It is a long story and needs to be understood if this forum is going to revive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sorry on mobile device slm
6 hours ago, MDEW said:

  Lesson after lesson was given as bait to get you to come back and Pay for yet another lesson. Some of these individuals vowed to find the "Secret" to singing and give it away for free and stop the charlatans.  

   Some of them found their way to our forum.

Just think about that for a little while......

The secret little trick needed to go off on the x factor and hit the big time that can be learnt all in one lesson. Please don't spoil the fun md by saying the secret talent is the shere dam hard work

Ow please spill the beans md, company, trading names plz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Still foolling
5 hours ago, kickingtone said:

communications skills and in psychology. Few people are "naturals" at all of these things. How many vocal coaches take lessons in psychology, or are actually qualified in vocal health?

And are you a natural silly little man, some one that dose not train and practices, just fools

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Fooling from a natural dev
4 hours ago, MDEW said:

Exactly, and yes there were those who thought there was a magic bullet(so to speak) and those who were naturals that thought training was BS. More on that later also. It all comes into play of why posts were deleted and why people were banned and why people left

Well please do let us know who it was that was a natural singer that got banned, coz it certainly was not silly little man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Robin bastard
4 hours ago, MDEW said:

It is a long story and needs to be understood if this forum is going to revive.

don't fool ya self, like you know who, the big chief will come along soon and say right jellus little didums job over now fanny may freedy mac, and pull the plug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a long story Silly Little Man and you are not who I am talking about. It does not even matter except that there were those who believed Training was BS and Teachers were full of BS. And I will get BACK to the story when I have time. Which is not now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, MDEW said:

Continued:

    There were a few individuals on youtube who believed that Vocal coaches/teachers and various vocal training programs were designed and intended to just get you to buy their programs/books/videos and such or were mainly garbage. Tips or exercises given by the established teachers/programs were intended to get you to seek them as a coach by promising gains in vocal range and strength.  Lesson after lesson was given as bait to get you to come back and Pay for yet another lesson. Some of these individuals vowed to find the "Secret" to singing and give it away for free and stop the charlatans.  

   Some of them found their way to our forum.

Just think about that for a little while......

 

22 hours ago, kickingtone said:

LOL! I don't know if I followed all of that, but it sounds kinda bad!

   You may not have followed all of that if you did not happen to run across their youtube channel when they first started it.Some of them were just starting to take the idea of singing seriously and looking for ways to improve or "fix" a particular problem they found with their singing.  Their Youtube channel was dedicated to following their journey. At that point some of them did believe that there was a technique that was being hidden by those "in the professional teaching" field.So they could keep you searching and coming back each week to get another piece of the puzzle.

  And yes, they did find that you get better by training. Then comes the question of how and what to train. Which leads to seeking different training methods. Training methods have their own terms/words/vocabulary for nearly everything within their training method. This includes the Academic world which does the research that these other methods use to get information to refine their method. 

Examples would be: Bright vs Dark, Forward Vs Backward, Sharp vs Dull, Shrill Vs dopey, In the Mask vs Behind the palate, In the nose vs in the throat, Twang vs operatic etc...... All of these mean BASICALLY the same thing. I have to emphasize basically because there are those that would debate their "True" meanings and definitions. And , this is just one aspect of sounds used  in singing or training the voice.

    This is just from the different accepted schools of vocal training and methods.  Not to mention about the different cultures and backgrounds of the individual forum members who take part in these discussions. Different cultures use various colorful phrases in speech that may mean different things to different people.  I may say my friends is around the bend from me. To me it means he lives a few miles down the road. To some of you it means that I am saying my friend is crazy. 

    So you can imagine that normal conversation could get a little more than confusing even when people are trying to communicate in a respectful manor.

   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, MDEW said:

Some of them were just starting to take the idea of singing seriously and looking for ways to improve or "fix" a particular problem they found with their singing.  Their Youtube channel was dedicated to following their journey.

I think that the basic idea is excellent!

There will always be the criticisms: "if you listen to these 'quacks', you will develop bad habits that will take years to reverse" or "you will damage voice" or "it will take you fifty years, when I can teach you in 3 months", blah, blah, blah...

It's up to the individual what and how much they want to believe. People use all kinds of tactics (some unscrupulous) to gain followers.

On 6/7/2019 at 3:50 PM, MDEW said:

At that point some of them did believe that there was a technique that was being hidden by those "in the professional teaching" field.So they could keep you searching and coming back each week to get another piece of the puzzle.

Again, I think that it is all a matter of judgment and choice. Nobody can actually force you to keep coming back. Anyone that impressionable probably needs parental guidance using the internet as a whole.

So, where is this YouTube channel, now? Or did it fade out?

I don't see that it should have been a major problem, even if some of the members landed here on these forums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One issue we have not mentioned is the increasing exposure of people using social media. Even prospective employers, not to mention friends, colleagues and trolls,  can chase around, digging up your various profiles. I think that increasing numbers of people are afraid of "putting themselves out there" to too wide a potential audience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Silly Little Man! said:

acoustic vocal mode pedagogy and nasalness? right!

Vocal modes was another NEW thing that just got started by different singing/training methods.

    This goes along with my story of how this forum went into decline. At least 6 different ways to approach training and improvement in the professional field. 6 different groups who used their own definitions of common words that now refer to sounds used in singing and the physical configurations to make those sounds.  Words like Twang, ring, ping, projection, placement, cry, sob, curbing, edge, overdrive, falsetto, full voice, speech level, head voice, chest voice ....... Vocal MODES were introduced by a few of the training systems. Each had different names for similar physical configurations or SOUNDS they produced. Some were using the character of the sounds produced and some were using the physical muscles involved in producing the sounds and some were using the physics of sound resonance and the shape of the vocal tract and the effect of the type of vibration of the vocal folds to assist in "Training" the voice or gaining control over it.

   At the same time the professional scientific vocal research community was trying to introduce a new concept of their own to "Help" stop debates of such terms as Head voice, Chest Voice and Falsetto based on the type of vibration of the vocal folds themselves. They referred  to these as Mechanisms M0 for Fry sound which has a vibration that is broken or intermittent.  M1 for "Full" voice "Chest Voice" which has a steady vibration and the vocal folds vibrate along the full length of the cords. M2 which would include "Head Voice/Falsetto which only the edge of the vocal cords were vibrating and the particular shape of the vibration of the vocal folds while vibrating was significantly different from the shape of the full mass of vocal cord while vibrating.

   Clear as mud don't you think.

 

1 hour ago, kickingtone said:

I think that the basic idea is excellent!

There will always be the criticisms: "if you listen to these 'quacks', you will develop bad habits that will take years to reverse" or "you will damage voice" or "it will take you fifty years, when I can teach you in 3 months", blah, blah, blah...

It's up to the individual what and how much they want to believe. People use all kinds of tactics (some unscrupulous) to gain followers.

Again, I think that it is all a matter of judgment and choice. Nobody can actually force you to keep coming back. Anyone that impressionable probably needs parental guidance using the internet as a whole.

So, where is this YouTube channel, now? Or did it fade out?

I don't see that it should have been a major problem, even if some of the members landed here on these forums.

54 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

One issue we have not mentioned is the increasing exposure of people using social media. Even prospective employers, not to mention friends, colleagues and trolls,  can chase around, digging up your various profiles. I think that increasing numbers of people are afraid of "putting themselves out there" to too wide a potential audience.

"So, where is this YouTube channel, now? Or did it fade out?"   

 He is now a vocal coach and teaches others.....For a price. Not free as he deemed earlier.

 

"One issue we have not mentioned is the increasing exposure of people using social media. Even prospective employers, not to mention friends, colleagues and trolls,  can chase around, digging up your various profiles. I think that increasing numbers of people are afraid of "putting themselves out there" to too wide a potential audience."

 

This also takes part in what happened to this forum.

   MOST of the people here were really trying to either Help People reach their goals or Find out how to reach their goals as far as singing and improving was concerned.  Debates began about the definitions of terms to use in their search for the best way to explain their idea/concept and their stand on training and exercises.

   These debates although long, boring and repetitive at times were really useful to those just starting out. This was years before the Big Trouble. 

    These debates started to separate the members into different camps or cliques of its own. Those who were basing their ideas on Breath control, Physical configurations of the vocal tract, some on the physics of sound and resonance and some on the physical use of muscles involved in order to improve or "Fix" various problems people have when singing..... Still everyone was getting along. Those who took opposing ideas would agree to disagree and still be "Friends and Colleges". 

   But occasionally there were those who just wanted to cause trouble. Though it is natural for people to get confused by various terms or vocabulary or ideas that on the surface seem different some people would use these terms and twist their meanings to invoke debates just refute ideas. 

   Some members picked up on these deceptions and others did not believing that it was just someone new to vocal terms and ideas.  

    Once it was determined these individuals were purposely causing debate they were warned. These warnings turned into personal attacks from the persons being warned.

That is getting a little ahead of the story because this was even before the big trouble but it has to do with why others were believed to be causing trouble when they were just curious and wanting to learn and express their own ideas..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, MDEW said:

   But occasionally there were those who just wanted to cause trouble. Though it is natural for people to get confused by various terms or vocabulary or ideas that on the surface seem different some people would use these terms and twist their meanings to invoke debates just refute ideas. 

   Some members picked up on these deceptions and others did not believing that it was just someone new to vocal terms and ideas.  

    Once it was determined these individuals were purposely causing debate they were warned. These warnings turned into personal attacks.

That is getting a little ahead of the story because this was even before the big trouble but it has to do with why others were believed to be causing trouble when they were just curious and wanting to learn and express their own ideas..

That is quite a determination.

With examples, demonstrations and references, people with the more compelling advice should have no problem making their point and moving on. Nobody is forced to hang around debating after they have provided their "evidence". I am not sure of the purpose of the warnings, except if people felt that they were losing the argument?

(I may have come across one of the folks you are talking about. I saw, maybe one, of his videos. They even banned mention of his name, here, iirc!)

So, he is still going, while these forums have all but ground to a halt? What does that tell you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

That is quite a determination.

With examples, demonstrations and references, people with the more compelling advice should have no problem making their point and moving on. Nobody is forced to hang around debating after they have provided their "evidence". I am not sure of the purpose of the warnings, except if people felt that they were losing the argument?

(I may have come across one of the folks you are talking about. I saw, maybe one, of his videos. They even banned mention of his name, here, iirc!)

So, he is still going, while these forums have all but ground to a halt? What does that tell you?

 It tells me that the situation was not handled properly here. But it also led to why the situation was handled the way it was.  It also tells me this individual finally realized that there is no Secret technique other than training and time.

"except if people felt that they were losing the argument?"  There was no winning or  losing an argument.  Facts were being twisted if facts were introduced and it turned to personal attacks not debates on singing. And I agree that the best way to handle the situation is to ignore the trouble makers and move on, their own argument is what will bring them down.

   I do not wish to mention any names, that is not the point. The point is that there were some who wished to cause trouble. And, All the coaches or members who may seem to fit this profile did not try to cause trouble but only wished to express their opinion which is beneficial to any discussion. 

   Just like any other website has the ability and sometimes the responsibility to  handle trolls, so do forum owners and moderators. Expressing an opposing position and deliberately causing trouble is two different things to be handled in their own way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kickingtone said:

There will always be the criticisms: "if you listen to these 'quacks', you will develop bad habits that will take years to reverse"

Bingo! nailed it on the head!

we have been telling you all this time to stop watching this shite on you tube and start paying for lessons with proper teachers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, MDEW said:

   I do not wish to mention any names, that is not the point. The point is that there were some who wished to cause trouble. And, All the coaches or members who may seem to fit this profile did not try to cause trouble but only wished to express their opinion which is beneficial to any discussion. 

 

Ow please please please! I ask again MD, spil the beans, im yerning for that sad little sack (they dont call me silly little man for nothing LOL you  know!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Silly Little Man! said:

And who are they?

The professional scientific Vocal community are those who write and conduct research that is reviewed and published by the established government funded schools. Most of the time the research is conducted by PHDs or those working on their PHD in the field of music and Voice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MDEW said:

The professional scientific Vocal community are those who write and conduct research that is reviewed and published by the established government funded schools. Most of the time the research is conducted by PHDs or those working on their PHD in the field of music and Voice.

please tell me how/where i can write to them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Silly Little Man! said:

please tell me how/where i can write to them

If you want to meet them.... Go to a respected school of music, study for your PHD and write a thesis paper on vocal training or vocal health. Then if your paper is published you may meet one or two others in the same field of expertise. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, MDEW said:

 It tells me that the situation was not handled properly here. But it also led to why the situation was handled the way it was.

I've seen exactly the same thing with a number of forums (for various subjects). It's so predictable. Inability to ride with the punches.

16 minutes ago, MDEW said:

It also tells me this individual finally realized that there is no Secret technique other than training and time.

And what happened to his "followers"? Were these forums still thriving for them to return to?

16 minutes ago, MDEW said:

"except if people felt that they were losing the argument?"  There was no winning or  losing an argument.  Facts were being twisted if facts were introduced and it turned to personal attacks not debates on singing. And I agree that the best way to handle the situation is to ignore the trouble makers and move on, their own argument is what will bring them down.

Exactly.

The irony is that, although it needn't be about winning or losing an argument, the steps taken to prevent dissent appear to come from a FEELING of losing the argument, and come across as lack of confidence. As you say, best way is to let the trouble maker/ignoramus/mistaken but persistent person stew in his own juices, after the evidence has been presented.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, MDEW said:

If you want to meet them.... Go to a respected school of music, study for your PHD and write a thesis paper on vocal training or vocal health. Then if your paper is published you may meet one or two others in the same field of expertise. 

THere are so many differnt bodies acting as a training scheem or a dimpoma or a degree that you could be lost from one body to the other

do you have a particular body in mind? a group whome we can identify MD?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

The irony is that, although it needn't be about winning or losing an argument, the steps taken to prevent dissent appear to come from a FEELING of losing the argument, and come across as lack of confidence. As you say, best way is to let the trouble maker/ignoramus/mistaken but persistent person stew in his own juices, after the evidence has been presented.

At first people were trying to help cut  the confusion by citing established evidence. After a while it became apparent that the evidence was being misunderstood or twisted purposely by the individual for the purpose of argument. when this was pointed out the mud slinging began.

This was my second paragraph from the first post in this thread. 

On 5/29/2019 at 12:59 PM, MDEW said:

I was here when the community was thriving and when things declined. There are two main issues that singers have to deal with. Egos and rejection. The thoughts of "Am I good enough?" and "Who has the right to tell me I am not good enough". 

  Pretty much Egos and rejection was the ultimate factor in the decline. When posts were deleted because of language used or personal attacks other members started retaliating about the deleted posts or bringing up issues from the past without, at times, finding out why the posts were deleted. Just the idea of it sparked  views on censorship and whether any post should be deleted. It was not that people were actually taking sides but that you may be viewed as being on one side or the other by stating your own opinion rather than if you supported one group or another.

   If I am For one person it does not mean I am Against the other. If I am Against one person it does not mean I am For the other. If I state my opinion it does not have anything to do with one group/ individual or another. But other members would take this view. If you gave an opinion that coincided with one group it meant that you fully supported  anything that group did. Things got out of control real quick.

  

1 hour ago, kickingtone said:

And what happened to his "followers"? Were these forums still thriving for them to return to?

 I do not know of any other forum that would actually allow you to use terms,words or vocabulary of another system let alone allow you to mention the names of the competing systems and their methods. This forum did allow alternate views and encouraged it for a long time. Not until after certain coaches were advertising themselves and other methods here on this forum and the owner was not, did the owner start to advertise himself and his product. 

  As far as I know other forums have little traffic concerning the voice and vocal pedagogy. You get questions like "How do I get my 7 year old daughter to improve for a contest that is coming up in a few days." People still think there is a magic bullet that will get them ready for "The Voice" in a year when they cannot now carry a tune.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, MDEW said:

After a while it became apparent that the evidence was being misunderstood or twisted purposely by the individual for the purpose of argument. when this was pointed out the mud slinging began.

Who decides?

Also, deciding that a difference of opinion is wanton adversity is quite judgmental. I'm not surprised when it doesn't end well.

22 minutes ago, MDEW said:

  Pretty much Egos and rejection was the ultimate factor in the decline. When posts were deleted because of language used or personal attacks other members started retaliating about the deleted posts or bringing up issues from the past without, at times, finding out why the posts were deleted. Just the idea of it sparked  views on censorship and whether any post should be deleted. It was not that people were actually taking sides but that you may be viewed as being on one side or the other by stating your own opinion rather than if you supported one group or another.

The flip side was, "how dare you not accept my advice"..."how rude....how stubborn...ungrateful...you novice..." blah blah blah....

I know that some folk therefore felt it necessary to follow the "thank you SO much" etiquette/lie, but that never means that they believe 100 per cent in 100 per cent of the advice. Yet somebody reading the response may believe that the advice "worked", when it may have failed or been rejected.

So the sense of rejection can go either way.

It all comes back to the ability to state your opinion and be able to leave it there without getting embroiled in mudslinging. The person to whom you are giving "advice" or your opinion, may not be the one who accepts the advice. Other people will be following the discussion and it may prove useful to somebody else. That's the way I would look at it.

53 minutes ago, MDEW said:

I do not know of any other forum that would actually allow you to use terms,words or vocabulary of another system let alone allow you to mention the names of the competing systems and their methods. This forum did allow alternate views and encouraged it for a long time. Not until after certain coaches were advertising themselves and other methods here on this forum and the owner was not, did the owner start to advertise himself and his product.

As I said, I think that all they had to do to control the terminology issue was to create a "dedicated terminology" forum. If you wish to argue about terminology, you would have to post in the free-for-all forums.

That would have achieved the best of both worlds: the advantage of being a central forum, and promoting a particular pedagogy.

1 hour ago, MDEW said:

As far as I know other forums have little traffic concerning the voice and vocal pedagogy. You get questions like "How do I get my 7 year old daughter to improve for a contest that is coming up in a few days." People still think there is a magic bullet that will get them ready for "The Voice" in a year when they cannot now carry a tune.

It's interesting because you don't see that kind of thing with sport. "How can I win the Olympics 100 metres next week? I started training last month.." People seem to understand that it takes years of practice. I suspect that part of the problem is the amount of showbiz and superficial packaging and promotion involved in the music industry. People look for a break there, instead of sweating their bits off. Same thing besets the acting profession. Some folks think that they can wake up one morning and act...or those folk who think that they can do stand-up comedy with zero experience. Maybe it is a showbiz thing. I don't see it happening so much in sport, even unregulated stuff like bodybuilding. People seem to realize it takes years of effort.

You may even have natural talent at things. But the standard will always be such that you are compared to talented people who have putting a lot of effort on top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this