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44 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

Who decides?

Also, deciding that a difference of opinion is wanton adversity is quite judgmental. I'm not surprised when it doesn't end well.

    The realization did not come quickly and easily. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt until it is bordering on my own stupidity/gullibility to not see the truth. It also helps when the other person boasts that he is doing a thing.

    Anyway, the point is not to bring up the past but to learn from the mistakes. 

44 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

As I said, I think that all they had to do to control the terminology issue was to create a "dedicated terminology" forum. If you wish to argue about terminology, you would have to post in the free-for-all forums.

   This was the free for all forum. Mainly because other forums would not allow across the board conversations. You could not post unless you already bought the program or paid for admittance. The moderators were those who achieved Teaching status within that method.

   On this forum the point of posting seemed to be to understand each others point of view and why the view or opinion was held instead of dictating a point of view. At least in the beginning.  We seemed to be working together towards a goal instead of one person leading. Discussions would include  why or why not an exercise or course of action would or would not work.

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4 minutes ago, MDEW said:

    The realization did not come quickly and easily. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt until it is bordering on my own stupidity/gullibility to not see the truth. It also helps when the other person boasts that he is doing a thing.

Yep, that's fair.

Not all moderators were like that, though.

6 minutes ago, MDEW said:

   This was the free for all forum. Mainly because other forums would not allow across the board conversations. You could not post unless you already bought the program or paid for admittance. The moderators were those who achieved Teaching status within that method.

What I mean is that they should have sectioned these forums into strict forums for preferred terminology, and left the others as free-for-all. If you want to argue, go to the free-for-all forums on this website. Then its harder to troll the product being promoted.

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9 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

What I mean is that they should have sectioned these forums into strict forums for preferred terminology, and left the others as free-for-all. If you want to argue, go to the free-for-all forums on this website. Then its harder to troll the product being promoted.

They did and may still have a section for students to post questions and to mark their progress. I am not sure how much traffic that section had or has now.

   In years past it seemed that the basic layout of the forum made it easier to switch between sections such as Vocal technique, Review my Singing and Vocal Health threads.

14 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

Yep, that's fair.

Not all moderators were like that, though.

True, not all moderators were like that but they also believed they were in it long enough and knew enough to see BS when it was spouted. I am not saying they could and I am not saying they used the best judgement, I am saying that THEY believed they were using their best judgement.  And this was not the first time things like this happened. Several things had happened through the years before deletion was used.

 

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Well, I am not really seeing how the issues escalated the way they did.

There were dedicated forums for preferred terminology. Any confused novice or beginner could have been directed there. (In fact it was a good opportunity to honestly promote the value of consistent terminology and a consistent approach).

Posts that persisted with inappropriate terminology in those forums could have been moved to the free-for-all forums.

There were free -for-all forums for people to debate terminology and compare systems, with rules that only banned verbal abuse. On these forums, people could post their opinions and evidence and leave it at that. If it was apparent (to the point of it being so obvious) that somebody was arguing for the sake of argument then they are only shooting themselves in the foot and could have been ignored. I do not see the need for further moderation, there.

It is not at all clear to me how it got from "here is my opinion (and my evidence)", "here is my rebuttal (with/without evidence) to your rebuttal", "ok, at this point, I'll agree to disagree", ... from there to verbal abuse that led to banning and people leaving. Genuine posters don't leave because you ban verbal abuse.

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What I have seen on many forums is cliquey behaviour. It starts with a normal discussion, with what either side believes to be "supporting evidence".

Then it goes wrong: AD HOMINEM "ATTACK" POST...

[Clique member joins conversation]: "when you have 35 years experience doing X (like my fellow clique member), you can comment. Meanwhile STFU."

Kinda borderline, right? Not quite verbal abuse. Gets you browny points with the clique, too.

This post would get 3 or 4 likes, even though it contains no substance related to the topic being discussed. It is simply a defense of an established member in a clique against a non-established member.

Now the non established member may respond in kind, or even milder. "35 years experience doesn't make anybody right. I've posted the evidence. Argue the facts!"

Then ADMIN steps in:

Post vanishes and is replaced by:

Our ESTABLISHED MEMBERS ("MAESTROS") WILL BE BE RESPECTED. THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING.

Well that game lasted a while, then it all predictably came crashing down. I'm sure that the clique members got a kick out of their "power" while it lasted.

I see it time and again on different forums. Clique members know EXACTLY how to drive the discussion and invoke an uneven-handed response from moderators or admin, who THINK that supporting the established members is more important than the principles of the forum. It is a game they love to play.

The longest lived forums I have been on have no such cliques.

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1 hour ago, kickingtone said:

What I have seen on many forums is cliquey behaviour. It starts with a normal discussion, with what either side believes to be "supporting evidence".

Then it goes wrong: AD HOMINEM "ATTACK" POST...

[Clique member joins conversation]: "when you have 35 years experience doing X (like my fellow clique member), you can comment. Meanwhile STFU."

Kinda borderline, right? Not quite verbal abuse. Gets you browny points with the clique, too.

This post would get 3 or 4 likes, even though it contains no substance related to the topic being discussed. It is simply a defense of an established member in a clique against a non-established member.

Now the non established member may respond in kind, or even milder. "35 years experience doesn't make anybody right. I've posted the evidence. Argue the facts!"

Then ADMIN steps in:

Post vanishes and is replaced by:

Our ESTABLISHED MEMBERS ("MAESTROS") WILL BE BE RESPECTED. THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING.

Well that game lasted a while, then it all predictably came crashing down. I'm sure that the clique members got a kick out of their "power" while it lasted.

I see it time and again on different forums. Clique members know EXACTLY how to drive the discussion and invoke an uneven-handed response from moderators or admin, who THINK that supporting the established members is more important than the principles of the forum. It is a game they love to play.

The longest lived forums I have been on have no such cliques.

Exactly, and yes those things did happen. There were things also being said and done that goes beyond the scope of a singing forum. The usual banter and disagreements can be handled within the community. These were not the usual disagreements. I really do not want to go into any actual events. That is the past and a single moment in time. I should hope all people involved have moved on and grown up.  An opinion on how things were handled or should be handled was seen as taking sides. In an effort to Cleanup the forum and have it just reflect a singing forum, other posts were deleted. This upset even more members who were not otherwise involved. More mud slinging insued. And more posts deleted.......

2 hours ago, kickingtone said:

It is a game they love to play

And the only way to win with some people is not to play the game. This was the initial advice to members involved on both "Sides".  Just by giving the advice of not to play the game or suggesting that it was a game made others believe you were on one "Side" or the other.

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https://www.themodernvocalistworld.com/forums/topic/102-grammy-winner-ken-tamplin-here-bel-canto-is-the-only-technique/

This thread just got bumped. First time I've seen it. It contains some of the issues you mentioned, MDEW.

Looks like the forums were doing ok at that point, but I do see trouble brewing in the thread!

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  I ended up posting to the wrong thread I meant to post it here. This is a quote from the Ken Tamplin Thread you mentioned, which was written in 2009. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 "The new way of things folks is to not fight for turf like lizards and proclaim that you have all the answers... the new age of voice pedagogy is an "Age of Enlightenment"... with the help of services like The Modern Vocalist.com we can now bring people together and pull from each other stuff that works. To my point, if James came to my studio and trained with me for two hours, he would leave with some new ideas and if I took a two hour lesson with James, I would leave with new ideas. My pedagogy is getting better and better and more effective, not because I put my nose in the air and ignore other systems, but because I put my nose in their books and pull from it what I need. At the end of the day, you still have your own pedagogy, your own techniques and language... but as we have often noted on this forum, voice teachers are often teaching the same damn thing, but with different language. One teacher does a lip bubble, the other does a lip buzz thingy... they are both semi-occulation excercises designed to balance respiratory pressures between the super and sub-glottal regions and get efficiency in the vocal phonation with the vocal folds. I have learned a lot of EVTS, Jaime Vendera, some things from SLS, a lot from Classical training years ago, some refinement from CVI, etc... they all serve to polish the pedagogy of TVS.

 

Also, its also true that what works for one student, doesnt necessary work across the board for other students.

 

So to my point... if you are a voice teacher, embrace other teachers, learn what they are doing, take their good ideas... if your student.. DO NOT get suckered into this notion that "our system and teachers have all the answers". There are some very large organizations out there that act like that and take it from me... someone that is in the business on the inside, on the outside and has met many of the leaders in these programs... the idea of "our system is the only system"... is perpetuated for the bottom-line. Its marketing... And thats ok, too... this is a business... and all the great systems get results... as James says, even the Grannie down the street has a few good tricks up her sleeve... but as you navigate through this voice pedagogy maze, keep these points in mind.

 

Find the system and the coach that you "jell" with..."

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

    That is from the owner of this forum. The one who people ended up with the idea that he was a tyrant because he started openly advertising his product on his forum. And it was a long journey before he did that.

   I only looked through a few posts on that thread a few minutes ago. I will read it from the beginning later.

   This thread is a good example of what the forum WAS about and , to me, what new and experienced singers/vocalists are looking for when searching "Modern" vocalists or vocal forums in general. Not so much the blatant advertising that Ken was doing when he started the thread or the subject of what system is "Best" but the fact that each of these post or responses were by Teachers, students or those who truly were interested in how the voice works and improving it. Then they responded giving their opinion and why they have that opinion.

   Even though Ken started with an advertising saying his technique is the only technique and a subsequent rebuttal against that statement, he was accepted by The owner and welcomed by him and the others who may have had a different view.   Many coaches and methods were mentioned and credit given to different styles on their own merit.

   Those responding including Ken mentioned their background and their own troubles that led to their seeking through different "Techniques" and teachers on their vocal journey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

^

That is precisely the same quote the caught my eye on that thread!

And it really did embody what was happening in the forum.  Different coaches were sharing ideas and giving points on why certain things did not work for them and what did work as far as making a difference in their singing or their vocal health by doing things certain ways.

 It could be pointed out that certain aspects of different systems/methods of vocal training were similar and what the differences were and why they helped or hurt in vocal development without dissing the whole system or putting one system on a pedestal over the others.   The people posting were generally people who were teachers or who had taken the initiative to "Teach" themselves through their own research or through a series of other coaches until they started making progress. It seemed to be a teach and learn from each other while we are on this journey to improve our singing.

  You could learn things quick, if someone said something that was misunderstood whether to do with vocal technique or just misunderstandings between individuals there would be someone who could put things in different words that could help you understand. 

  It is much better to converse than to fight. Especially when your goal is truth not position.

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It is an excellent ethic, but the owner has to put in place staff (like yourself) who understand and embrace the ethic. All too often, I saw moderators who didn't live up to the ethic.

These forums really were buzzing and there were various very experienced vocalists who were volunteering quality information to suit different learning and vocal styles.

There will always be coaches and teachers who come in to try to cream off from the success, tapping into people's wild, unrealistic dreams and leading them away for a few months. There is absolutely no reason to fight back. It would have only been a matter of time before the vast majority of those dreamers would have gone off to try the "one-and-only-way", realized the wisdom in the eclectic approach, and returned to these forums. It's all part of the process.

I think that all that was needed was to really highlight and sell the MOTTO of the eclectic approach. What you must not allow is staff and moderators who do not embrace the motto of the site, and who do not set the example. That's where you have to get "ruthless" and preserve your brand.

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2 hours ago, kickingtone said:

It is an excellent ethic, but the owner has to put in place staff (like yourself) who understand and embrace the ethic. All too often, I saw moderators who didn't live up to the ethic.

These forums really were buzzing and there were various very experienced vocalists who were volunteering quality information to suit different learning and vocal styles.

There will always be coaches and teachers who come in to try to cream off from the success, tapping into people's wild, unrealistic dreams and leading them away for a few months. There is absolutely no reason to fight back. It would have only been a matter of time before the vast majority of those dreamers would have gone off to try the "one-and-only-way", realized the wisdom in the eclectic approach, and returned to these forums. It's all part of the process.

I think that all that was needed was to really highlight and sell the MOTTO of the eclectic approach. What you must not allow is staff and moderators who do not embrace the motto of the site, and who do not set the example. That's where you have to get "ruthless" and preserve your brand.

   It is hard to keep the idea of "diversity" and an eclectic approach when you are trying to improve on teaching skills, training skills and performing skills. Especially when the subject is so diverse itself and the aesthetics are different between genres.

   We were searching for the common denominator not the qualities that were on the surface that made different genres sound so different.

    That focus got lost along the way.

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3 hours ago, MDEW said:

   It is hard to keep the idea of "diversity" and an eclectic approach when you are trying to improve on teaching skills, training skills and performing skills. Especially when the subject is so diverse itself and the aesthetics are different between genres.

   We were searching for the common denominator not the qualities that were on the surface that made different genres sound so different.

    That focus got lost along the way.

Well, That seems quite confusing. How is it hard to keep the idea of diversity with a diverse subject?

  This goes back to the question of singers' and teachers' egos and the difference in "Sound ideals between differing genres".  I am not using "EGOS" as a bad term here.

When your idea of Beautiful and powerful singing is a Classical or Operatic sound, that is different from a Southern Gospel sound and different from a Rock opera sound and Different from a Country Music Sound and different from a Blues Sound etc. And when you are a singer and having certain problems that you seek to "Fix" you may start off with different teachers or methods, exercises, books and so forth. I have heard and read many stories on this forum of people trying many different programs and teachers until they found the "Right" one that helped them. Now, most of the programs/methods or teachers use the same exercises. Maybe they will give them a different name but basically the same thing.

   After trying things for years and then suddenly something "Clicks" and you start making gains, you start to believe you found the "Secret" and the "True" method. You get the idea that "You are Correct" because nothing else worked. The point is you may be forgetting about ALL THAT OTHER STUFF you did for years that was working in the background, like any other training. 

   Your voice and control over it takes time. It does not happen over night. When it does "Click" you think the last thing you did was the "Magic Bullet" or the "True Method". So for some it is "Bel Canto" and some SLS, and some TVS and others Ken Tamplin"s Product still others Brett Manning. Stick with any of them and Pay attention to your voice and adjust accordingly and all of these programs will "Work" over time.

   The EGO part is that after failing for so long and then it "Clicks" you do not only Think the last thing was what truly worked "You KNOW" it did and you have the conviction of years of trying that other stuff  but this one worked.  

   Anyone who gets in front of people and sings has a strong EGO even if they believe they are timid, Anyone who teaches has a strong EGO even if they do not think so. You have to have the belief that you are doing something Right before you will expose yourself like that.

   Some people may flaunt it more....And why not? They fought long and hard for it. You gain bragging rights. You failed for a long time and then you concurred it. You deserve to tell others about your struggle and success and you also may have the gained conviction that you can HELP others do what you did.

   So.....one person may KNOW that Bel Canto is best and another will KNOW TVS is best and one person will KNOW that speech level Singing is best because they tried the others first and did not make gains until the last method tried.........At this point it is no longer diversity that helped you but a single thing or Method that you believe was the deciding factor and that is what you are going to argue for and you will be inclined to argue against the other methods. Not even realizing that each of them contributed to the gains in the long run.

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6 hours ago, MDEW said:

Well, That seems quite confusing. How is it hard to keep the idea of diversity with a diverse subject?

Obviously not hard in principle, even if it is so in practice. Yes, there are folk who do not recognize the diversity or the commonality, and where one ends and the other begins.

It only takes a handful of enthusiastic followers for some people to believe that everyone wants to sing, sound and be like them. Therefore, they develop a one-way self-centred style of "communicating" their methods.

Just make sure you never make such people moderators, since they are not squarely behind the principle of the forum.

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    At some point in time, on this forum, moderators were chosen from contributing members. Not necessarily from professional singers, teachers or those with people skills. Just from who is available and willing. At this point it would be me, you or Silly little man.  I do not  have the knowledge or skill required. 

    Part of what needs to be moderated...and this is where issues arrive....when there are discussions on physiology, pedagogy, or even common principles of singing you need someone who has the knowledge and can steer the discussion back on track when the discussion takes a wrong turn. You also need to know when someone is twisting words purposely and when it is just a matter of not understanding what is being said.

   There is one who I believe is still monitoring this forum. I do want him to know that he is well respected and not the type of bad moderator we have been talking about. 

   Adolph, If you are out there, I hope you are doing well.

 

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2 hours ago, MDEW said:

    At some point in time, on this forum, moderators were chosen from contributing members. Not necessarily from professional singers, teachers or those with people skills. Just from who is available and willing. At this point it would be me, you or Silly little man.  I do not  have the knowledge or skill required. 

    Part of what needs to be moderated...and this is where issues arrive....when there are discussions on physiology, pedagogy, or even common principles of singing you need someone who has the knowledge and can steer the discussion back on track when the discussion takes a wrong turn. You also need to know when someone is twisting words purposely and when it is just a matter of not understanding what is being said.

   There is one who I believe is still monitoring this forum. I do want him to know that he is well respected and not the type of bad moderator we have been talking about. 

   Adolph, If you are out there, I hope you are doing well.

 

Thank you very much for your kind words, MDEW !

Unfortunately, my health has taken a turn for the worst. I'm awaiting a procedure that will hopefully return me to a normal life. 

Yes, I have been monitoring the forum and will continue to do so as much as possible. 

Thank you again my friend. 

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1 hour ago, Adolph Namlik said:

Thank you very much for your kind words, MDEW !

Unfortunately, my health has taken a turn for the worst. I'm awaiting a procedure that will hopefully return me to a normal life. 

Yes, I have been monitoring the forum and will continue to do so as much as possible. 

Thank you again my friend. 

   It is good to know you are still around. This is also a good example of the type of moderators a forum needs. Able to sit back and let forum members work through a disagreement or debate until necessary to step in. 

  It is also worthwhile to know that some of the former moderators were teachers who took part in the discussions and debates. It may not be so easy to separate the position of a moderator and a participant in heated discussions. That would be part of the people skills needed.

  At the time we have been talking about, moderators were needed. People did need to be warned about crossing lines and eventually posts did need to be deleted, for the good of the forum and for personal reasons. There was a fine line that had been walked for a long time before those actions were taken. 

   People took up the fight against censorship and the cause for freedom of speech while overlooking the right to moderate your own forum and present a welcoming environment and air of respect.

   Opinions on singing is one thing and mud slinging or outright misinformation is another. Keeping Forum guidelines were mentioned in looking for a moderator, forum guidelines being broken gives rise to a need for a moderator and his own judgement for when guidelines have been broken.

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Just spoke with Adolph on the phone, he needs our support when possible. 

MDEW, thank you SO MUCH for being here at the forum.

Remember when this forum was HOT!! We should be VERY proud of what we achieved when it was really ripping. It is not my belief, but it is a fact, that some of the world's best discussions on vocal training are found in the posts on this forum. Hidden gems that people are not aware of. Discussions like this do not happen anywhere else that I am aware of. It truly was amazing for about 6 years.

 

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10 hours ago, Adolph Namlik said:

Thank you very much for your kind words, MDEW !

Unfortunately, my health has taken a turn for the worst. I'm awaiting a procedure that will hopefully return me to a normal life. 

Yes, I have been monitoring the forum and will continue to do so as much as possible. 

Thank you again my friend. 

I said a prayer for you!

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16 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

Just spoke with Adolph on the phone, he needs our support when possible. 

MDEW, thank you SO MUCH for being here at the forum.

Remember when this forum was HOT!! We should be VERY proud of what we achieved when it was really ripping. It is not my belief, but it is a fact, that some of the world's best discussions on vocal training are found in the posts on this forum. Hidden gems that people are not aware of. Discussions like this do not happen anywhere else that I am aware of. It truly was amazing for about 6 years.

 

   I am very proud of our achievements in this forum.

   With a subject like how to improve your singing and what makes a voice sound good you have so many different ways to approach the subject and different views of what sounds good, not to mention using words that have diverse meanings, it is inevitable that people will disagree or misunderstand each other. These disagreements are what leads to better understanding of the subject. In order to get your own statements to be understood by people from different cultures and different singing methods/styles you have to rethink your own position and try to find better words that are universal in order to communicate your opinion.  This will get you to assess your own understanding and either confirm your belief or help you CHANGE your belief. Some people have a hard time changing a belief even when they get concrete evidence that they are completely wrong or just mistaken on a few points.

   A common goal is the key to come to any conclusions and advancements. We had a common goal. To get to the bottom of how the voice works and how to improve it. Not to mention teachers and students who had the desire to learn how to hone their own skills or develop them and help others while doing so.

  When your goal is to learn and improve, you are already open to new ideas. When your goal is to teach you already believe you have the answer.

  Most of the teachers here at that time, were still in the process of learning. And I believe that most of them continue to believe they are Students of voice. Having a realization that you never stop learning is good way to keep yourself from becoming one of those who insist that they are right and you are wrong when you are saying the same thing in a different way.

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Sup, it's been a while. Hope you get better Adolph... this sucks man.

My 2 cents... I think a big deal of what made the forum work well before was that it was simple and ruthless. In the sense that people would speak their minds, and we had a lot of very capable singers from different backgrounds opposing their views. That's what brought me here...

Unfortunately due to N reasons which I frankly don't care anymore, most of these people went or were put away. Which undermined the core reason the forum was useful to begin with.

The current structure also does not help... It personally turns me off to be honest. I visit this forum at least once a week and I only found your thread mdew because it was linked somewhere else, you have to filter the sticky messages to see it. I made a new account to try out the review my singing section as new user would see it (which to me was the best part of the old days), you can't even find it unless you go through the paywall on guaranteed reviews... I believe that to have any chance of being back to it's tracks, and I would not have much hopes of being what it was in 2012/13 ever again, the monetization scheme would need to be much less aggressive, or just not be there. I don't think it will survive otherwise when you have free platforms like Facebook/Reddit/Youtube that have a huge number of communities available.

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1 hour ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Sup, it's been a while. Hope you get better Adolph... this sucks man.

My 2 cents... I think a big deal of what made the forum work well before was that it was simple and ruthless. In the sense that people would speak their minds, and we had a lot of very capable singers from different backgrounds opposing their views. That's what brought me here...

Unfortunately due to N reasons which I frankly don't care anymore, most of these people went or were put away. Which undermined the core reason the forum was useful to begin with.

The current structure also does not help... It personally turns me off to be honest. I visit this forum at least once a week and I only found your thread mdew because it was linked somewhere else, you have to filter the sticky messages to see it. I made a new account to try out the review my singing section as new user would see it (which to me was the best part of the old days), you can't even find it unless you go through the paywall on guaranteed reviews... I believe that to have any chance of being back to it's tracks, and I would not have much hopes of being what it was in 2012/13 ever again, the monetization scheme would need to be much less aggressive, or just not be there. I don't think it will survive otherwise when you have free platforms like Facebook/Reddit/Youtube that have a huge number of communities available.

   Good to see you Felipe. I still search for your videos at times.

It does seem that when I first joined it was easier to jump between categories like Review my singing and General discussions. 
 The debates and discussions are what made me stay.  I think the Ruthlessness was part of the N reasons. It went from opposing positions to discuss, to I am right. More to the point of regardless of any evidence to the contrary I am right because I said so. That is no longer a discussion.

   And I am not talking about established members at the time. Sure there were some who always would interject opposing opinions to specific members....but they were still friends and respected each other. 

   Speaking as a new member when the forum was "HOT" I can attest that new members who new nothing were treated with respect even if they had crazy ideas. Sometimes these crazy ideas led to better discussions, at least interesting ones...

   I still think that many of the debates were types of 'glass half full, compared to glass half empty". Each side saying the same thing with a different approach.
   I am sure you know that there were times when trying to establish facts that some were purposely twisting other established facts for their own purposes. And there were times when a post or complete thread needed to be deleted regardless of the idea of freedom of speech. I have no problem with that and it is also part of the reason I started this thread. There were things being brought up that had nothing to do with a singing forum. They did not belong here. Period. Those decisions to delete need to be understood even by people effected by it. For a moderator, to do his job, sometimes the decision has to be made that this thread or post does not belong on this forum. Sure people are going to have a problem with their post or someone else's being deleted if they do not know why it happened. 

   People leaving this forum or being bumped from it also had nothing to do with opposed positions on singing and training. It was more about hurt feelings and defending yourself....on both sides. Of course others just got fed up with the situation at hand while even others were caught in the crossfire.

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Thank you for your honest feedback Felipe. I respect that. I will also give you the same courtesy.

There is a perspective I would like you to appreciate. The company has paid over $10,000 in the last 10 years to provide a service for you and the community. It is the monthly hosting fee x 12 mths + development costs est. x over 10 years = approx. $10,000... that doesn't account for all the man hours the company put into this forum to keep it going, adding posts, moderating, etc... Counting man hours, I'd say at least $15,000 in 10 years.

This forum gave a lot of people free exposure and education, and still does actually. This forum helped tell the world who many talented members were. The traffic has been approximately 2, 280, 000 hits (and it continues), from people all over the world that have had the chance to learn more about Felipe Carvalho and other coaches on this forum.  This service has been generously funded by, The Vocalist Studio.  Felipe was also made a moderator which adds additional privileges. 

The company also offered every coach a chance to sell their programs and voice lessons on this platform,... Only Kevin Richards, Judy Rodman and myself took advantage of that. The company tried about 4 or 5 different ideas that gave everyone a chance to do a little business here. Nobody took advantage of it. No foul, that is fine. But it is a fact, that many teachers have been given a lot of opportunity on this forum from the company. MY POINT?.... IDK... Uhm.... How about, "thanks Rob"... ? ...

The traffic slowed down mostly because of Facebook Groups. The Vocalist Studio Facebook Group is on-boarding about 120 new people a week. We are having a lot of fun there and it is very productive. Anyone reading this is welcome to join the TVS FB Group if you like. We would love to see you be involved there as well if you like. You are all invited to do so, it too, is an open community.

Regarding the Quick Start Training Page. Please understand,... this is not just a forum. It is a business platform for the company. We are voice coaches that have services to offer singers. That is what we do for a living. We have over 100,000 happy students around the world in 175 countries that are singing better and probably another million that have been reading these articles and posts for free for the last 10 years that have also benefitted. 5 Online courses and over 50 certified instructors. There are numerous microphone companies who publish their blogs here as well.

Why don't you like the new QSTP? That wasn't clear to me.... Is it the user interface?  All you have to do is click at the top left corner to get to the forum. See attachment. You just have to click on the big red link in the top left corner.  NBD.

Screenshot_2019_06_19_10_45_56@2x.png

 

I think the Quick Access Training Page is COOL!!!  It says to everyone that comes here, "... this is a place for training, and we as a community are offering you a simple and super affordable tool so you can start training right now... " What is wrong with that?  83 people are already using it.

Thank you Felipe for sharing your perspective and I mean that sincerely. I would love to have this forum kick up again... I don't have all the answers. Just some ideas...

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1 hour ago, MDEW said:

   And I am not talking about established members at the time. Sure there were some who always would interject opposing opinions to specific members....but they were still friends and respected each other

   Speaking as a new member when the forum was "HOT" I can attest that new members who new nothing were treated with respect even if they had crazy ideas. Sometimes these crazy ideas led to better discussions, at least interesting ones...

I think so... There was a lot of mutual respect in here. That wasn't really a big problem and when it became a problem, it was handled.

1 hour ago, MDEW said:

 People leaving this forum or being bumped from it also had nothing to do with opposed positions on singing and training. It was more about hurt feelings and defending yourself....on both sides. Of course others just got fed up with the situation at hand while even others were caught in the crossfire.

Let's be clear on one point, treating the company and people that provide the website and services disrespectfully and outright posting passive slander and defamation posts designed to hurt the company and individuals in the company, isn't going to be allowed. Some of the people who left, were people who stopped from doing that after given warnings. For all practical purposes, they left in a "huff" because they couldn't freely make negative posts attacking the company that provides this service. ... Which says a lot about their motive, lack of character and what was most important to them.

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