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3 hours ago, MDEW said:

 I am sure you know that there were times when trying to establish facts that some were purposely twisting other established facts for their own purposes. And there were times when a post or complete thread needed to be deleted regardless of the idea of freedom of speech. I have no problem with that and it is also part of the reason I started this thread. There were things being brought up that had nothing to do with a singing forum. They did not belong here. Period. Those decisions to delete need to be understood even by people effected by it. For a moderator, to do his job, sometimes the decision has to be made that this thread or post does not belong on this forum.

 

2 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

Let's be clear on one point, treating the company and people that provide the website and services disrespectfully and outright posting passive slander and defamation posts designed to hurt the company and individuals in the company, isn't going to be allowed. Some of the people who left, were people who stopped from doing that after given warnings. For all practical purposes, they left in a "huff" because they couldn't freely make negative posts attacking the company that provides this service. ... Which says a lot about their motive, lack of character and what was most important to them.

These two quotes are addressing the same thing. Personal attacks or vendettas do not belong on a forum.

There is no point in having forum guidelines if they are being crossed without consequences.  I do not understand why people would bring up the subject of freedom of speech after they used that right for making verbal attacks(this happened). Freedom of speech is not freedom of slander and it is not freedom to undermine a forums ideals.

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Precisely @MDEW and thank you. For the first few years the company did not enforce the guidelines and was very casual about calling people out on very rare occasions when they acted disrespectful to the company. The first few years I was "Mr. Don't Worry About It Guy"... Then along came a small handful of childish brats who had a different idea about what respect, lacking maturity, that were not just making mistakes, but where outright gunning after me. Because of that, I kicked their asses out of here. It was the right thing to do and they had it com'n.

If that means the forum slows down and simply exists as a place for new people to read amazing legacy content and train on the quick access training page, then that is perfectly fine with me. The site still drives 19,000 hits a month to the company website, logs over 60 new registrations a month and now offers a cool subscriptions service that is popular and selling.

... Picture below is of singers from Germany, Italy, France and the United States that are members of this forum.

People that are cool, that care about singing that respect the company that provides this forum.

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 I sent this as a private message but I think it belongs in this thread. There are random people who are reading this thread and some like Felipe have come across it through other means. To me this means that there are people interested in this forum.

 

" I am trying to get things rolling again without stepping on any ones' toes or bringing up sore subjects.

 I am not sure if I am making any progress and I know that I do not have the skills or knowledge to start any threads of substance other than trying to see if any one is still interested in discussing vocal techniques.

I would think that even with facebook and youtube people would want to have conversations that are ongoing and not just random comments like you do on youtube."

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1 hour ago, MDEW said:

" I am trying to get things rolling again without stepping on any ones' toes or bringing up sore subjects.

 I am not sure if I am making any progress and I know that I do not have the skills or knowledge to start any threads of substance other than trying to see if any one is still interested in discussing vocal techniques.

I would think that even with facebook and youtube people would want to have conversations that are ongoing and not just random comments like you do on youtube."

Is this you?

@MDEW I am touched that you want to kick this up again. I am totally fine with that! Would be super cool, but I can't do it alone. 

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11 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

For the first few years the company did not enforce the guidelines and was very casual about calling people out on very rare occasions when they acted disrespectful to the company. The first few years I was "Mr. Don't Worry About It Guy"... Then along came a small handful of childish brats who had a different idea about what respect, lacking maturity, that were not just making mistakes, but where outright gunning after me. Because of that, I kicked their asses out of here. It was the right thing to do and they had it com'n.

If that means the forum slows down and simply exists as a place for new people to read amazing legacy content and train on the quick access training page, then that is perfectly fine with me.

I think that folk here totally overestimated the power of trolls and saboteurs to do damage. (And I do know the kind of subtle, two-faced personal attacks and sabotage you may be talking about.)

They will appear to do a little bit of damage, but that comes with the territory of success. What damage they are actually able to do is transient and relatively insignificant, and over time it would have plateaued, if given the chance. All you had to do was to stick to the formula, and only put people who understood the formula in positions of control.

I know two forums that are flourishing having come through worse than what this forum has endured.

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2 hours ago, kickingtone said:

I think that folk here totally overestimated the power of trolls and saboteurs to do damage. (And I do know the kind of subtle, two-faced personal attacks and sabotage you may be talking about.)

   The subtle two faced attacks got warnings.  No big deal and nothing to worry about. If that was it no problem.

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26 minutes ago, MDEW said:

   The subtle two faced attacks got warnings.  No big deal and nothing to worry about. If that was it no problem.

Well, it doesn't seem as if the problem has been solved, then. If the forums are to be revived, you can't "rinse and repeat".

What are you suggesting will be done differently? I am not hearing it.

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     The problem now may be the lack of interest in discussing vocal pedagogy. The world has changed and the way people get information has changed. Maybe people think they have found the answer and there is no need to search for answers anymore. 

     People may believe that because there are still questions after all this time, it is a waste of time to even search for answers or discuss the subject.

    People are still thinking there is a magic bullet and can improve enough to win a contest they will be in at the end of the week so they look on youtube instead of seeking a long term process.

    It is not about rinsing and repeating the problem but repeating the core of the forum. It is finding people who are willing to learn from and help each other again. Those who have already taken the journey and have reached their goal helping others who are just starting.

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But I heard that with other forums that went quiet. "It's Facebook", "it's a shift in culture", etc. Meanwhile, other like forums remained strong.

I see a lot of demand for information on vocal technique.

Let people look on YT for next week's contest. That may be their first step before they ask what went wrong. Eventually, research will take them to the right place.. There is no need to interfere with that process, and it doesn't really stop traffic. It may delay traffic, but that only causes a blip.

If you simply repeat the core of the forum, it WILL be a rinse and repeat. You must be able to take ownership of the things that went wrong, which means figuring out how to be resilient against external issues and impacts.

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  I think both you and Robert mentioned the answer. The same answer that eventually led to slowing of traffic here. And people will still view it as discrimination,censorship or Maestroism. Enforce the guidelines of the forum. Keep the forum on track. Yes, you want the discussions to be free open, opinionated and Ruthless as Felipe mentioned, but focused on  vocal pedagogy, training and singing. If you cannot respect the members and their opinion or follow the forum guidelines, you are gone.

  And you have people from different cultures who use what others consider profane language as normal communication. Enforcing language and demeanor/conduct would also be seen as discrimination. But it is not, community guidelines are to keep the community going.

37 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

You must be able to take ownership of the things that went wrong, which means figuring out how to be resilient against external issues and impacts.

Taking back ownership was part of the trouble. The owner took back ownership and the guests took offence to it.

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2 hours ago, MDEW said:

  I think both you and Robert mentioned the answer. The same answer that eventually led to slowing of traffic here. And people will still view it as discrimination,censorship or Maestroism. Enforce the guidelines of the forum. Keep the forum on track. Yes, you want the discussions to be free open, opinionated and Ruthless as Felipe mentioned, but focused on  vocal pedagogy, training and singing. If you cannot respect the members and their opinion or follow the forum guidelines, you are gone.

Trouble is, the expansion of the forum is all but gone, too. Trolls don't care about that. They find some other place to do their trolling, for whatever weird psychological reason. And those whose objective was sabotage would be thinking, mission accomplished.

That is why I say that what happened was not an inevitable consequence of external factors.

The people who could and would have got along fine (maturely) FAR outnumbered the wreckers. There is always a way to encourage that overwhelming majority, and not make trolls the center of focus (that is what they want and how they operate). If you neglect little things, trolls are experienced at spinning them into bigger issues. Then you start firefighting, and other people get caught in the crossfire, and the whole thing starts to spiral out of control.

Social forums can neither be unregulated, nor zero-tolerance. Trolls are adept at creating an apparent damned-if-you-don't-damned-if-you-do dilemma. But it only works if you give them way more attention than they are worth. If you have a good formula, make that work. Avoid cliques (otherwise the trolls and saboteurs will get in and misplaced loyalties will open up) and you should be very resilient. 

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6 hours ago, MDEW said:

Taking back ownership was part of the trouble. The owner took back ownership and the guests took offence to it.

Exactly. Quite literally, after repeated warnings, they started throwing fits like children. So we booted them and it was a wondrous pleasure to do so. They went on to try to launch their own forums and they flopped. Nobody gave a shit ... 

The challenge with post activity is more about a lack of interest in debate, science and being academic about singing. Forums like this are competing with FB Groups and Instagram... :DancingChicken:

... but, if you guys want to revive, I'm all for it. Maybe there is a chance. It will have to be mostly managed by someone else. @Felipe Carvalho.

 

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4 hours ago, kickingtone said:

Avoid cliques (otherwise the trolls and saboteurs will get in and misplaced loyalties will open up)

... a little bit of that went on as well. 

But again, it hasn't been my loss, or the people that still come here to read the posts. It is really their loss because they are not getting the exposure they once were. Doesn't hurt me at all ...

If the site had a talented, hard working community manager to start making posts, it would likely flare up again.

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  We were already caught in a cross fire.

Cliques are inherent to vocal pedagogy and music in general. What sounds good to a Rock-n-Roller generally sounds like crap to a classical aficionado. Musical theater has one set of aesthetics and Country music has another. On and on. Even inside the Opera field you have Wagnerian's opposed to Mozart,  Castrati vs HeldenTenors on and on again. Each one thinking theirs is the epitome of voice and its accomplishment. In reality all of these are just opinions. And when you are training for any of these you would take a different approach because each has its own inherent sound ideal. You can sing an A5 with twang and high larynx. That is fine for Rock Blues and some Country songs but NOT for Opera. You train differently for both. Period. Some exercises are good for both. Some approaches work for both. But the SOUNDS that define the Genre are created differently with different configurations.

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11 hours ago, MDEW said:

 We were already caught in a cross fire.

Cliques are inherent to vocal pedagogy and music in general. What sounds good to a Rock-n-Roller generally sounds like crap to a classical aficionado. Musical theater has one set of aesthetics and Country music has another. On and on. Even inside the Opera field you have Wagnerian's opposed to Mozart,  Castrati vs HeldenTenors on and on again. Each one thinking theirs is the epitome of voice and its accomplishment. In reality all of these are just opinions. And when you are training for any of these you would take a different approach because each has its own inherent sound ideal. You can sing an A5 with twang and high larynx. That is fine for Rock Blues and some Country songs but NOT for Opera. You train differently for both. Period. Some exercises are good for both. Some approaches work for both. But the SOUNDS that define the Genre are created differently with different configurations.

Right!

In fact, some natural cliques can add to the passion of the debate and therefore hugely to the site traffic and longevity.

Just don't give them physical authorities on the site, otherwise it is doomed.

You have to find those few people who, although they may be very passionate about a particular pedagogy, believe in, and put, balance before advocacy. Some people simply are not able to do that. Don't let them anywhere near control of the forums. Give them titles (if they show expertise in their genre), but leave them in the PLAYGROUND to fight it out. Shut them out of the BOARDROOM. A business can have a central proposition, but without (ruthlessly) hiring and firing the management structure into shape, the proposition is lost.

(Essentially what I am saying is that, to maintain a business,  it is FAR more effective to boot people out of the boardroom than boot the "wrong" customers away from the business.)

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4 hours ago, kickingtone said:

(Essentially what I am saying is that, to maintain a business,  it is FAR more effective to boot people out of the boardroom than boot the "wrong" customers away from the business.)

 I know of a place now(store chain) who needs to get rid of their manager. The manager is making decisions and changing workers schedules on the spur of the moment. Most of the employees quit and it left to a few cover the hours. One day she would have all 20 employees working and another day only 2 or 3 to cover when she needs 10.

4 hours ago, kickingtone said:

You have to find those few people who, although they may be very passionate about a particular pedagogy, believe in, and put, balance before advocacy.

    There have been advances in vocal research over the past 50 years that changed the way researchers themselves approach the research. And on most of the findings the tag is left with "More research is necessary". These are people who have the background of science, music theory, vocal health etc. and they do not accept their own finding as concluding evidence. 

    Although there are a few who insist their method, idea or view is correct, for the most part, we were a community who were still seeking answers. Even when odd ideas were introduced there was discussion on why it may be a wrong path or a cause for further thought. Research is advanced by thinking outside the box not by sticking to cookie cutter ideas.

    It may true that the way the voice works has not changed in 6000+ years but our understanding of it and the way we use it has.  The sounds we make and find pleasing are also changing from year to year and within different cultures. To say one sound is ideal over another (in General) is ridiculous. Sure within a certain Genre there is an ideal sound(for the time being). 

   I guess I am pretty much saying whether you are an advocate for Speech Level, Bel Canto, or Primal Scream techniques none can be the ultimate and correct method for singing or training. Even on research one cannot truthfully say "I am right and YOU are wrong."  Voice production is a product of Muscular activity and position, Air flow and resistance, Vocal tract alignment and acoustical properties within the vocal tract and bone structure. None of these are the ultimate  defining aspect of voice production. None are more important than the other.

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Guest Fooling Thomas!
18 hours ago, Silly Little Man! said:

What where they called?

 

7 hours ago, kickingtone said:

no comment.........

yer yer yer more bull shit from the tradisanol silly little man

Dreams him self up a little walter mitty storry, this time not to impress his fellow muppit musisions on the jimmy shit for brains forum https://homerecording.com/bbs/

But so he can have a pop at the big cheif robin bastard now that the jellus little didums job is all over and the site is all over folks just becuase he removed a couple of his crappy posts which would of been the usuall tom follery complete utter noncence to the vocal world that MD keep talking about this organization but fails to proive any evidance because the emperor is wearing no clothes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes.

Ow Im sorry adolf, we wish you the best of recovery. And for the record there are no singing forums doing well because tradisanol silly little man has failed to provid such evidance becuase the emporer is wearing no cloths. And remember the secret little code to unlock that magic song inside of your head is one tap on the blad of the cement mixer for every shuvel of cement and 3 taps on the blades for every shuvel full of sand, and as ever run like buggery!

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Chances are you should worry more about your own clothes first dude. I don't know what is your thing with that homerecording forum but complaining about them all over the internet won't make them accept you any better. Specially since you say this place is dead, it seems like a waste of time eh?

The rest of your post I could not understand, but it reads just as confuse as what you write with all your other nicknames, you are not really fooling anyone... -.-

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    It would have been nice to actually have a forum for people interested in voice, work, maintenance and improvement and discussion. But I guess there really is no place for it any more. one thread that has had traffic here. I guess most people are still of the mind that all you have to do is open your mouth and make noise and you are singing. No work needs to be done, no thought, and no consequences for bad technique. Technique is a joke. Training makes no difference.

    OK, I guess we are done here. Let's just hand it over to Silly little man and his new clothes. Real singers like Pavarotti never took lessons or practiced in a way that could be considered training, John Denver did not feel like he needed to warm up his voice or do stupid little exercises, right? You would never hear Ozzie Ozbourne doing silly little lip trills or going Mi,Mi,Mi right? Michael Jackson never needed a coach to guide him did he? Celine Dion Either. How about Janis Joplin or Barbara Streisand they never got any guidance. Correct?  Those people who end up on "The Voice" just automatically started singing that way. Right?

   So yes, there is no point in discussing anything...All you have to do is open your mouth and make noise....There you go, The secret. We are done here.

 

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5 hours ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Chances are you should worry more about your own clothes first dude. I don't know what is your thing with that homerecording forum but complaining about them all over the internet won't make them accept you any better. Specially since you say this place is dead, it seems like a waste of time eh?

Take it you have not read the whole thread then. to come in next post....

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On 6/3/2019 at 10:36 PM, Silly Little Man! said:

I don't, I mean I don't in reality fool myself like silly little man or the rest of the muppit musicians that find it easier to criticism and condemn and ridicule the hard work and progress of other in the words of you suck you are a losses you will never ever become any better no matter how much you try now pack it all in silly little man before you make a fool out of your self (go hang your self!); yup met those ass holes toooo!!!!!! the jimmys@@tforbrains forum is a classic example of where out friend Walter mitty (formally know as the traditional silly little man managed to relies what bastards they where and no longer posts his great 10 second little clips of video fooled the radio star and other stuff that he has done nothing in the time to improve  https://homerecording.com/bbs/ (but my IP address is banned there, what a shame!), infact come to think of it MD there is a sticky thread hear that has had recent replies of a similar situation, a father and a brother that resented there son/ brother so much to deem him as a sad little losses when he was far greater then the pair of them would ever be when infact it was them who where the sad little looser themselves

Ow Im sorry felipe, but late night drinking and the ear muffins come off and troll hat goes on

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1 hour ago, MDEW said:

    It would have been nice to actually have a forum for people interested in voice, work, maintenance and improvement and discussion. But I guess there really is no place for it any more. one thread that has had traffic here. I guess most people are still of the mind that all you have to do is open your mouth and make noise and you are singing. No work needs to be done, no thought, and no consequences for bad technique. Technique is a joke. Training makes no difference.

    OK, I guess we are done here. Let's just hand it over to Silly little man and his new clothes. Real singers like Pavarotti never took lessons or practiced in a way that could be considered training, John Denver did not feel like he needed to warm up his voice or do stupid little exercises, right? You would never hear Ozzie Ozbourne doing silly little lip trills or going Mi,Mi,Mi right? Michael Jackson never needed a coach to guide him did he? Celine Dion Either. How about Janis Joplin or Barbara Streisand they never got any guidance. Correct?  Those people who end up on "The Voice" just automatically started singing that way. Right?

   So yes, there is no point in discussing anything...All you have to do is open your mouth and make noise....There you go, The secret. We are done here.

 

but at least i contributed to some of those other posts, unlike traditional or felipe

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     Kicking tone has also contributed to some of the other posts. Felipe hasn't been around the forum for a while, and there hasn't been any relevant threads that would call for a response from someone like him.

     I am not sure what your problem is with Kicking tone or the beef you have with the other forum. I personally would not have someone tell me I am a good singer when there are obvious flaws. I would know right away they were BS-ing me. I did not get any pats on the back that were not preceded by flaws to be addressed. If you think you sound great while others are saying there is a problem, Chances are that there is a problem and it does not do you any good to ignore them because you believe you have no flaws.

   The other forum is not and was not intended for Vocalists to improve their singing or people who had an interest in the technical or scientific side to vocal research or training the voice.

   This forum was intended for vocalist, those wishing to learn, train and improve. Perhaps to discuss better courses of action for different genres. Some even to discuss the scientific research of voice production. If you are not interested....move on. If you are interested at least give those who have an opinion on improvement and maybe some scientific insights  a chance.

    So far what has at least come through in your posts is that you think the training and scientific approach and research is BS or just putting others down for whatever reason. We actually need a few Walter Mitty's around here. Maybe we will get some threads worthy of time and effort.

   

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