Felipe Carvalho

Review of Twang and Squillo Research

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19 hours ago, Pcastagner said:

Oh well maybe I made a mistake and you can explain to me how frequency amplification occurs. What frequencies?  And how are you amplifying something by modifying the source?????

 

this is word salad man. Why are you doing this? Self-destructive is posting live feeds looking and sounding like a microwaved potato 

 

You are not healthy... I first noticed this out at Facebook. Your a complete DB.

So anyways,...

Here is how it's gonna go down... 

You bore me. I don't respect you, so I'm not going to waste any more of my valuable time putting real effort into having any discussion with you.

One more rude or insulting comment to me or our moderators Philippe ... and you will be banned from this forum.

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1 hour ago, Robert Lunte said:

Interesting, thanks.

What does the tongue root movement help to improve?

And HOW would you train it?

Is there a physical vocal mode or particular vowel that would assist?

You probably already use it as part of your '"larynx Dampening" and keeping the "Buzz" or Vibration at the lips. 

The important thing  is that now you can be aware of it. Once you gain awareness of something it get easier to recognize when it is happening and you can then use it on purpose. 

The use of the tongue root idea will make the voice brighter and add higher harmonics. From what I have tried with it, it also helped to keep the vocal folds together around the passaggio area. But, I have not been able to experiment much. It may also have an effect on other muscles that are attached to the vocal tract.

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23 hours ago, Pcastagner said:

What you mean like if I point out you plagiarized estill and cvt but can’t actually do most of the techniques?

Don’t forget to get the frequency amplification mass correct or your sigmoid grumbling problem will flastercate the sinopses  

 

 

Phillipe Castagner, Banned for being rude and insulting moderators after only 21 posts. 

 

Phillipe Castagner I did not plagiarize Estill and CVT. Enjoy the video.

As the video points out, I only repurposed 3 of their terms for a wise and responsible reason.

As for "doing their techniques"... I don't "do their techniques". I don't want to do their techniques because it doesn't interest me enough. Both offer little to no training pedagogy and content for training. They don't teach students how to practice, I have a concern about that. Practicing and training content is a big part of what my pedagogy, course, book is about... Indeed, it is a big part of who I am and what interests me. That is why I have never read one of their books from cover to cover. I have a lot of other things to do that are more pressing. So as you can see Phillipe Castagnerthe simple fact is... you don't know anything about my course and book, what I teach, or who I am.

However, these people do.

https://thevocaliststudio.com/testimonials/

Phillipe Castagner, hostility, attacks, rudeness and insults against our moderators and myself and not allowed here.

BANNED

 

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4 hours ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

And this is part of the swallowing mechanics, we do it all the time to eat, so it is also not something that only a few mutants do :P

     The entire apparatus used for singing was designed for self preservation and self protection. We use all of the muscles automatically for different purposes, such as breathing, eating, swallowing, yawning, vomiting, coughing, sneezing, crying, grunting while lifting objects, holding the breath under water, gasping for air...  Speech and Singing came about After humans learned how to control autonomic responses involving the vocal tract to shape the resulting sounds, or by mapping the sounds produced when the response was taking place.

    Things like "covering" and "Flipping into falsetto" are themselves protective actions of the bio-mechanism of the larynx and voice box. We learn how to manipulate these actions for our purposes. Sometimes undo tensions are introduced because we try to trigger a response with un needed breath pressure or tension in the wrong muscles believing they are inter connected and needed to produce a desired sound. We have learned that many of the Triggered responses can be under our control Without the stimulus that triggered them. 

      

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   Pay attention to one of your children when they get hurt or when they are laughing really hard and try to speak. Normally the voice will get higher but still be somewhat clear as far as vowels go. But it is a natural reaction to the stimulus of the emotion or added pressure in the lungs or other muscular tensions taking place. You did not teach them how to do it. It is something that happens automatically.

   The "Covering" usually happens after the full fledged CRYING and then the child tries to calm down enough to tell you what made him/her cry in the first place. This is usually called "Sobbing".  

   The protection may not be in the Covering itself as far as the vocal folds or any thing connected to the voice but the sound is a result of coordinations set up by other "protective" mechanisms.

   Crying is a self protection mechanism in that it signals to others that something is wrong and the baby needs something. It is usually the first sound a baby makes. 

   As grownups we have to learn how to do this on purpose to use it in singing. Still it happens automatically in adults when  we need to communicate while crying or sobbing.

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I can understand that a yell or crying is a natural/instinctive reaction. And I can understand that it happens by using the larynx which is itself primarily a *valve that protects the lower respiratory tract*.

From that to saying that covering, or even falsetto break, is a protective action, seems like quite a stretch. Same logic could be used to say that all voiced sounds are protective actions... which does not say much tbh.

In many senses covering is a deliberate reduction of some of the constrictions associated with the *yelling* position. I am not aware of some natural situation where we use covering, for alerting/protection, or some other reason. Even sobbing, that could pass as curbing perhaps, but even so... I would like to know one though!

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2 hours ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

From that to saying that covering, or even falsetto break, is a protective action, seems like quite a stretch. Same logic could be used to say that all voiced sounds are protective actions... which does not say much tbh.

It is a natural reaction in certain circumstances. Meaning you do not do it on purpose, it happens without your conscious input. A similar thing happens when speaking during all out laughter. Perhaps it is a protective mechanism so that we do not actually bust a gut while laughing.....

2 hours ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

In many senses covering is a deliberate reduction of some of the constrictions associated with the *yelling* position. I am not aware of some natural situation where we use covering, for alerting/protection, or some other reason. Even sobbing, that could pass as curbing perhaps, but even so... I would like to know one though!

All of singing is deliberate. At least for those who train and want to improve their sound.

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Its antagonic to the instinctive action @MDEW. For male voices in special its almost alien.

Granted that pretty much all singing on the mid range is counter intutive, it is messed up in a special way to adjust the vowels and keep the intensity/energy still high enough.

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@Felipe Carvalho

I just reviewed the video by Obert and the book by Fink. And you are right that what Fink talks about happens a bit lower. He calls it the "median thyrohyoid fold" (also mentioned in the paper MDEW posted).  In the video it actually sounds very close to "knödel" when it's markedly - so it makes sense it's tongue root tension.

So you have the tongue root tension and epilaryngeal narrowing or both at the same time. And if you do it extremely you'll probably end up doing a convincing Louis Armstrong or Christina Aguilera "growl". :D

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@MDEW

The aryepiglottic muscle seen in your picture can't really create the narrowing of the epilarynx simply because it's too weak and sometimes it's even absent. 

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2 hours ago, Martin H said:

@Felipe Carvalho

I just reviewed the video by Obert and the book by Fink. And you are right that what Fink talks about happens a bit lower. He calls it the "median thyrohyoid fold" (also mentioned in the paper MDEW posted).  In the video it actually sounds very close to "knödel" when it's markedly - so it makes sense it's tongue root tension.

So you have the tongue root tension and epilaryngeal narrowing or both at the same time. And if you do it extremely you'll probably end up doing a convincing Louis Armstrong or Christina Aguilera "growl". :D

Thanks, it makes sense. Do you believe such coordination by itself can lead to "ring" as she proposes with lower larynx? I mean knödel sounds a bit dull normally, no? At 42:20 that's really the major change I see on the MRI apparently producing a more piercing/ringing quality, or am I not seeing something more subtle?

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    For me playing with this tongue root idea does not lead to the Knoedle. Perhaps I am doing things a little different.Or the Knoedle also involves other mechanisms such as raising the larynx or limiting the movement of it. I am getting a Brighter and louder sound, more cord closure....When I take this movement to extremes I get a distortion, Sort of on the Rock distortion side of things not towards the Kermit sound, Dudley Do Right or Knoedle.

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On 8/6/2019 at 5:16 PM, Felipe Carvalho said:

Thanks, it makes sense. Do you believe such coordination by itself can lead to "ring" as she proposes with lower larynx? I mean knödel sounds a bit dull normally, no? At 42:20 that's really the major change I see on the MRI apparently producing a more piercing/ringing quality, or am I not seeing something more subtle?

I believe it depends on how we define "ring". If we consider it to be the same as the "singers formant" then it would also require a cluster of formants 3,4 and 5. This can be achieved by narrowing the epilarynx and slightly lowering the larynx at the same time. Which can be quite difficult because it creates a kind of "tug of war".

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On 8/6/2019 at 6:36 PM, MDEW said:

    For me playing with this tongue root idea does not lead to the Knoedle. Perhaps I am doing things a little different.Or the Knoedle also involves other mechanisms such as raising the larynx or limiting the movement of it. I am getting a Brighter and louder sound, more cord closure....When I take this movement to extremes I get a distortion, Sort of on the Rock distortion side of things not towards the Kermit sound, Dudley Do Right or Knoedle.

Maybe you are just narrowing the epilarynx more and not overdoing the tongue root? In my opinion there will always be some tongue root tension when the epilarynx narrows because we need to stabilize the hyoidbone.

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1 hour ago, Martin H said:

Maybe you are just narrowing the epilarynx more and not overdoing the tongue root? In my opinion there will always be some tongue root tension when the epilarynx narrows because we need to stabilize the hyoidbone.

Perhaps but it is still speculation. I admit that I have no formal training and no access to an MRI, but I play around with my voice quite a bit. Different accents, Different voice characterizations. What I have mainly come across in trying to study singing on my own is that mostly what you DO in speaking you do not want to DO in singing according to whatever books,and video, masterclasses and such. That was what I tried before that did not work(Following sensations taught by formal training). After using Voices and manipulation and finding a better response from listeners and those here on this forum a while back. I have gone back to manipulation as a guide.

 

2 hours ago, Martin H said:

I believe it depends on how we define "ring". If we consider it to be the same as the "singers formant" then it would also require a cluster of formants 3,4 and 5. This can be achieved by narrowing the epilarynx and slightly lowering the larynx at the same time. Which can be quite difficult because it creates a kind of "tug of war".

Narrowing the epilarynx and lowering the larynx at the same time seems to me something you DO with the throat. This would go against the notion of "Tone in the head, Movement in the Abs and NOTHING in the throat".  I just wanted to establish the notion of "Doing" something in the throat purposely to effect the sound.

I define "Ring" as a sound similar to the feedback of an amplifier. On lower notes similar to a sustained Hoot of an owl, On higher notes a similar quality, a hollow tone like a wooden flute.

Then you also have a Vibrational sound, a Buzzing sound like a bee flapping it wings, A buzz saw, A speaker with a tear or cut. The tweeter in a speaker system. This is the sound I get when using what I believe is the tongue root as described in the video. An amplification of the higher partials. The over all sound gets louder also. I am also trying to JUST isolate the action of the tongue. A backwards movement at the back of the tongue as opposed to a forward movement  as in sticking out your tongue. This seems to have something to do with the vibration of the vocal folds(perhaps better cord closure?) and being able to hear the higher frequencies.

With the knoedle you almost feel that the tongue and larynx are linked somehow. It is not just a movement of the tongue but a movement of the tongue and larynx.

For the Singers formant and the clustering of the 3,4 and 5 formants it is described as a 1 to 6 ratio of the epilarynx and the pharynx. Now, is that  1 to 6 ratio referring to the Chamber created between the vocal folds and the epilarynx and the chamber above the epilarynx. Or is it the width of the opening of the epilarynx to the width of the Pharynx wall?

A narrowing can also be created by the false folds that can be adjusted to create a "Ring". This type of narrowing can "Cut" the higher partials or make the voice sound more soft or velvety in texture.

 

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5 hours ago, Martin H said:

I believe it depends on how we define "ring". If we consider it to be the same as the "singers formant" then it would also require a cluster of formants 3,4 and 5. This can be achieved by narrowing the epilarynx and slightly lowering the larynx at the same time. Which can be quite difficult because it creates a kind of "tug of war".

    The significance of the tongue root for Squillo and the narrowing of pharynx to block the piriform sinuses to cause an increase in the higher partials is that you do not have to have this struggle or "Tug of War". We are taught how to do things by doing other things that indirectly effect the true cause. We end up believing the other parts are necessary and they may not be.

   If the cause is a muscular movement of the Tongue or pharynx that we have conscious control over, The pressure of the breath and the resistance of it to adjust the coordination is not necessary.

We are also told that resonance and acoustical coupling are what causes volume and that after a certain amount of air pressure any more is wasted effort. Yet we are taught how to find these things by adding more air pressure and resisting that pressure. Like having a hose of running water and placing a finger over the hose. the action of placing the finger over the end of the hose builds up the pressure. You do not have to have a lot of muscular force in your finger for this to happen. The only time you need more force in your finger to keep a desired gap is when there is too much pressure to begin with.

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2 hours ago, MDEW said:

Perhaps but it is still speculation.

Yes it's mostly speculation.

"For optimum resonance, this resonator must be about one-sixth as long as the entire vocal tract, and also have about one-sixth of the cross-sectional area of the vocal tract:"

http://www.ncvs.org/ncvs/tutorials/voiceprod/tutorial/singer.html

In regards to the "tug of war". When we lower the larynx it naturally widens the airway and when it rises it narrows the airway. So you have two opposing movements you have to balance to achieve the one-sixth ratio - and it's definitely something you DO in your throat.

 

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1 hour ago, Martin H said:

Yes it's mostly speculation.

"For optimum resonance, this resonator must be about one-sixth as long as the entire vocal tract, and also have about one-sixth of the cross-sectional area of the vocal tract:"

http://www.ncvs.org/ncvs/tutorials/voiceprod/tutorial/singer.html

In regards to the "tug of war". When we lower the larynx it naturally widens the airway and when it rises it narrows the airway. So you have two opposing movements you have to balance to achieve the one-sixth ratio - and it's definitely something you DO in your throat.

 

   In this diagram it appears that they are indicating the false folds as a means to "adjust" the width of the resonator. Actually, they do not say what mechanism does what. They only say a resonance chamber is created. Because of the sound they are researching is an Operatic  sound they are going for the lowered larynx with a wider and longer vocal tract. This does not need to be if the requirement is a 1 to 6 resonance chamber. The vocal tract can stay the same and the "resonance" chamber can be adjusted between the false folds and true folds as opposed to epiglottic narrowing.

   In the video, I do not know if they even checked for movement or clustering of the 3,4 and 5 formants. But the energy of the higher frequencies increased . They supposed that blocking the space between the root of the tongue and epiglottis(valecula?) and blocking of the piriform sinuses was responsible for the increase.

  The clustering may be because of the movement of the larynx, in that changing the length and width of the vocal tract is HOW you adjust formants.

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On 8/8/2019 at 9:32 PM, MDEW said:

   In this diagram it appears that they are indicating the false folds as a means to "adjust" the width of the resonator. Actually, they do not say what mechanism does what. They only say a resonance chamber is created. Because of the sound they are researching is an Operatic  sound they are going for the lowered larynx with a wider and longer vocal tract. This does not need to be if the requirement is a 1 to 6 resonance chamber. The vocal tract can stay the same and the "resonance" chamber can be adjusted between the false folds and true folds as opposed to epiglottic narrowing.

   In the video, I do not know if they even checked for movement or clustering of the 3,4 and 5 formants. But the energy of the higher frequencies increased . They supposed that blocking the space between the root of the tongue and epiglottis(valecula?) and blocking of the piriform sinuses was responsible for the increase.

  The clustering may be because of the movement of the larynx, in that changing the length and width of the vocal tract is HOW you adjust formants.

You can increase the energy in the 3000 Hz area by narrowing the epilarynx alone. But you'll get even more energy in that region when the formants cluster which requires a small resonator "within" the vocal tract. The important point is the narrow inlet (rim of epiglottis) to the lower pharynx which is an anterior-posterior movement and not the false folds. 

twang

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1 hour ago, Martin H said:

You can increase the energy in the 3000 Hz area by narrowing the epilarynx alone. But you'll get even more energy in that region when the formants cluster which requires a small resonator "within" the vocal tract. The important point is the narrow inlet (rim of epiglottis) to the lower pharynx which is an anterior-posterior movement and not the false folds. 

twang

The point of the video is that although it is believed that the movement of the epilarynx alone is what creates the "Twang" or "squillo" it is not. With an "Ah" vowel the epilarynx closes and the increase in this frequency zone does not happen. The increase happens when the root of the tongue closes the space between it  and the epilarynx. There is a name for this space but I cannot recall at this time.

According to this video, In "Twang" the increase happens when the Piriform(Pyriform) sinuses are closed off by the walls of the pharynx. The resulting sound of the tongue root movement and the "Twang" created by closing off the piriform sinuses are different but both increase the energy of the upper partials or frequencies.

This is information that goes against the accepted view. Maybe the importance of this observation is that it DOES go against the accepted view. And, Maybe it is not important for singers themselves to know this information and they are better off learning in the accepted way but for the science and researchers it is important.

I do not have a degree in singing pedagogy and I have NOT had formal training., but I AM a student of voice. I am interested in why and how things work. I am also not restrained by the accepted view and new information can be processed without trying to reconcile it with the accepted view. 

I am in no way claiming I have answers, but I am saying that in all the research the ending tag is "more research is necessary". It is worth looking into the implications of the observations in this video.

 

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