kickingtone

AUDIATION: the ignored skill?

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5 minutes ago, MDEW said:

That is why I drove around for half an hour. Trying get this into muscle memory. I could not record it at the time. It was reproducible as a muscle movement during that half hour. I was not following the sound. I was letting the sound come out as a product of the coordination.

Personally, I've never really understood the muscle memory thing. I tend to view it as a gimmicky buzzword, to be honest, or maybe one that is oversubscribed.

My opinion is that you can train a muscle, through repetition, to not feel awkward or unfamiliar in a coordination -- so it doesn't get in the way. But I think that there still needs to be a trigger or motive (which can be subconscious) learned to sew all the motions together -- a conceptualization of the action that repetition does not deliver. So muscle memory says "you are able to do it", not that "you will do it". Only my gut feel.

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May as well post this here as it says some interesting things about audiation, (rather bold assertions) like...

"According to this pedagogical approach, performing musically on an instrument cannot occur effectively without audiation, as there is an enormous emphasis on the connection between the physical and the mental aspects of performing. Because of this philosophical outline, ear training is a key aspect of the Jacques-Dalcroze Method. Practically, an orchestral Jacques-Dalcroze Method enthusiast may incorporate singing into all classrooms, including orchestra classrooms, as they would argue that a string player will not phrase effectively on an instrument if they cannot internally audiate effective musical phrasing."

WOW!

https://scholars.unh.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1326&context=honors

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36 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

My opinion is that you can train a muscle, through repetition, to not feel awkward or unfamiliar in a coordination -- so it doesn't get in the way. But I think that there still needs to be a trigger or motive (which can be subconscious) learned to sew all the motions together -- a conceptualization of the action that repetition does not deliver. So muscle memory says "you are able to do it", not that "you will do it". Only my gut feel.

   Yes, a trigger, a thought that sparks the coordination.  Just as I speak on the other topics of support, cord closure and all of that, sensations, feelings emotions and audiation are part of the whole. Especially in music. But if you are Audiating and visualizing the wrong sound to the wrong coordination you are screwed. I could not audiate and visualize that coordination because I had NEVER made the sound before. If you want to use a sound you have to learn how to make it and how to use it. You tend to "Audiate" on what you imagine is making the sound not what actually is. Until you make it of course.

    just as in any musical instrument "learned by ear" you are marrying coordinations to sounds. When learning to read sheet music you are marrying muscle movement to sight reading. Stressing the importance of Audiating in a sight reading course or an orchestra instrument setting is more important than stressing it in Vocal Training or learning by ear because it is already a part of it. You cannot get away from it.

   But yes in some formal training of the voice coordinations or sensations become more of a focus than the emotional "feel" or "vibe" or "Sound" just as reading music tends to keep you stuck to the written notes and comes out stale and unmoving. But then again...in an orchestra the Conductor is the one that is providing the emotional feel and the instruments  are his voice.

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1 hour ago, kickingtone said:

May as well post this here as it says some interesting things about audiation, (rather bold assertions) like...

"According to this pedagogical approach, performing musically on an instrument cannot occur effectively without audiation, as there is an enormous emphasis on the connection between the physical and the mental aspects of performing. Because of this philosophical outline, ear training is a key aspect of the Jacques-Dalcroze Method. Practically, an orchestral Jacques-Dalcroze Method enthusiast may incorporate singing into all classrooms, including orchestra classrooms, as they would argue that a string player will not phrase effectively on an instrument if they cannot internally audiate effective musical phrasing."

WOW!

https://scholars.unh.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1326&context=honors

This writing is on different philosophies on music. My own philosophy is that music is an expression of emotion. Without emotional influence on tempo, wording, instrument choice, phrasing....on and on there is no point to it.

There are a lot of musical genres out there that I do not get the point to. That is fine others do "Get it". But even to them there is some sort of emotional point to the music ,words and phrases etc.

The formal training is to help you express the emotions not stifle them. You cannot express the emotions if you yourself do not feel them or recall them at some point in your life. Pretty much the same thing as in this paper.

    I mention finding an emotional standpoint to the words you are singing. You cannot find an emotional standpoint until you actually read the words, know what the story is, and IMAGINE how you would react in a similar situation. Even if you are just relating the story of the song, you have to imagine the story to relate it. The audiating comes into play from "hearing in your mind" how the characters in the story would sound in that situation..... soft and depressed sounding, Happy and elated, Angry and shouting..... Still you are audiating. Imagining the sounds related to the story and the characters in it, whether you are one of them or observing, you should still be able to hear the emotions that the CHARACTERS would be expressing in that situation.

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3:20

"...the concentration must be so strong. Before you begin to sing...you have to one second before...you have to HEAR the note, and then, you will not make a mistake. But, if you think, at the last moment, to invent the note, I think it's not going to be good..."

 

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 Did you listen to what he said after that? The Singer he went to see vocalized for 40 minutes. In this instance "Vocalize" does not mean just singing. It means Vocal exercises. He is still a student and will always be. 

Hearing the note before you sing it works AFTER you have conditioned the voice to make the note. In other words you do not reinvent the note while singing, you sing the note you have trained.

Another one of those things that work together instead of being separated and one thing being more important than another. They work together and reinforce each other. If you are audiating a C# but keep producing a C either you need to train the voice to sing the C# to match the imagined sound or Change the imagined sound to reflect the C.  

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1 hour ago, MDEW said:

 Did you listen to what he said after that?

I did watch the whole video.

1 hour ago, MDEW said:

Hearing the note before you sing it works AFTER you have conditioned the voice to make the note. In other words you do not reinvent the note while singing, you sing the note you have trained.

Of course, there is no suggestion that merely audiating is sufficient, or could replace training.

But he is saying that audiating is necessary and essential.

What I understand Pavarotti to be saying is that if you get to the note before audiating ("hearing") it, then mere memory/muscle memory won't work.

I said something similar earlier -- that trained muscle memory says that you CAN sing the note, not that you WILLl sing it. The coordination will feel familiar and easy if you trigger it, but you need to audiate to trigger the right responses.

(I wonder if people who talk or sing in their sleep talk/sing flat?)

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3 hours ago, kickingtone said:

I did watch the whole video.

Of course, there is no suggestion that merely audiating is sufficient, or could replace training.

But he is saying that audiating is necessary and essential.

What I understand Pavarotti to be saying is that if you get to the note before audiating ("hearing") it, then mere memory/muscle memory won't work.

I said something similar earlier -- that trained muscle memory says that you CAN sing the note, not that you WILLl sing it. The coordination will feel familiar and easy if you trigger it, but you need to audiate to trigger the right responses.

(I wonder if people who talk or sing in their sleep talk/sing flat?)

I am not saying anything against audiating. It just seems like a natural part of the process to me. But the audiating without the action may help in learning the action while learning it, but it cannot take the place of learning the action. After the action is set then ,Yes, audiating helps in solidifying the action to the thought.

If I am learning a guitar lead I can hear the notes in my head but until I get the guitar and pratice putting the fingers where they go they may still miss the mark. The fingers may land a little higher or lower on the strings until both the thought and the action are unified. 

"(I wonder if people who talk or sing in their sleep talk/sing flat?)"

I used to sleep in a room next to my nephew. He said I sang in my sleep..........at that time I sounded better while sleeping than I did when awake.  Go figure:)

To be clear, I do agree that muscle memory alone will not guarantee a good outcome. As I said before it seems to me as a natural part of the process and cannot understand why people would not use it.

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