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kickingtone

"Jack LiVigni on Understanding squillo in the tenor voice"

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What caught my attention here was the statement that modern day tenors tend to emphasize the SIXTH as the dominant harmonic. I recall an argument in which someone was trying to convince me that asymmetric vocal fold closure (due to high closed quotient) was critical for full projection, and that that is why the THIRD and FIFTH harmonic are dominant. Well, that is not consistent with what we have here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzGITC_PRWw

(I am aware that Livigni has done a video on the "importance of"  the closed quotient, but I still think that the science behind it is shaky.)

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       You can go with the resonance angle and ignore the physical or go with the physical and ignore the resonance. But in truth they go together. I do not mean that you have to concentrate on either one, I mean that they are linked. A different mouth shape and tongue position not only effects the resonance chamber but also effects the tension and direction of tension on various muscles around and within the vocal tract and Adams Apple(larynx). Changing the angle of the vocal folds from front to back and individually on the surface area that is touching each while vibrating. Not to mention the amount of material vibrating. You cannot amplify, filter or focus a frequency that is not there.

      Just as he says in this video it is not one aspect at a time but several together. The amount of each that is required is what tends to get these discussions off track but the important part is that these different aspects are independent and can be used or focused at the same time. ex. Lowered larynx and "shape" of an "OO" vowel WITH the higher tongue position of an "Eh" or "i". Instead of being thought of as "Modifying" the vowel It can be viewed as "Shaping" the sound. The "Sound" can still be shaped regardless of the vowel(Although some are more difficult).

I was approaching the same thing with my audio clip. I was going from the physical aspect rather than the resonance.  What do you suppose happens to the root of the tongue and the eppilarynx when he shifts from a flat low tongue position to a high rounded one?

       

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MDEW, I don't follow the basis of your post. Where did ignoring anything come from?

Is this in relation to the video, the OP or something else?

7 minutes ago, MDEW said:

You cannot amplify, filter or focus a frequency that is not there.

Does any science prove why the frequency is there? Asymmetry can be the result of any of many factors. The vibration of the vocal folds is inherently asymmetric.

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1 hour ago, kickingtone said:

MDEW, I don't follow the basis of your post. Where did ignoring anything come from?

Is this in relation to the video, the OP or something else?

Does any science prove why the frequency is there? Asymmetry can be the result of any of many factors. The vibration of the vocal folds is inherently asymmetric.

What I meant by that was the research and most instruction  focuses on one aspect at a time. In this case it is the resonance and formant tuning. He uses an example, as I did of a sound with the lower larynx that does not have the higher frequencies and then he "shifts" resonance from one formant to a higher formant resulting in a brighter sound. The brighter sound may have been from the difference in Vibration of the vocal folds resulting from the muscular "Tension" shift that also occurs when The vocal tract or Tongue position changes.

Most instruction for "Classical" singing is a result of "open" throat. "Feel Nothing" in your throat. That does not mean that the muscles do not do anything, but it does shift your attention AWAY from what is happening in the throat at the same time.

  The shift in Frequency amplification from my audio clip was of a physical nature. The vibration changed allowing higher frequencies to be created OR closed off a frequency trap.

   It is true that the difference in sound was more pronounced in his example but I was not trying to focus resonance. I was just allowing for higher frequencies to be generated. And I was still actively being "Quiet".

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37 minutes ago, MDEW said:

What I meant by that was the research and most instruction  focuses on one aspect at a time. In this case it is the resonance and formant tuning...

It's still a physical configuration, but I get your point.

There can sometimes be a bit of, "if you do X, Y will fall into place, so it's like doing nothing for Y, so no point discussing Y in depth."

Even is such description and method "works" for some people, I agree that it is still of value to eventually know about Y.

But does that mean that it should be part of the instruction?

Imagine that a tennis coach places a racquet on the ground by your side, and, at some point, asks you to pick it up. As soon as you do so, he says, "the way you are now holding the racquet is your basic grip". Now, the coach knows that different people will naturally grip the racquet slightly differently, which is the reason he didn't give a direct instruction on how to hold the racquet. He is relying on the probability that you will automatically find you natural grip if you do his "exercise" -- picking up the racquet.

So, sometimes I think that it is handy to do X and just see how Y falls into place. Then, if you wish, you can study how Y fell into place. This is a different approach from consciously configuring Y.

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In regards to the harmonic content:

On the first example where the 6th harmonic should be amplified this is the spectral distribution:

Captura de Tela (25).png

Both 6th and 5th harmonic have a boost, this is very consistent with the idea of *twang*, being close to the 3khz area.

On the second example, where he says it´s 5th harmonic:

Captura de Tela (26).png

Indeed the 5th harmonic is stronger on the twang region, but it´s on a very similar level to what it was before, it´s likely the darkening reduced twang and separated the clustering. Reducing twang is also consistent with the lowering of the energy level on the second partial in relation to the fundamental when compared to the first example.

 

Then he demonstrates a vowel on the low range, again the profile is very similar to twang, and of course now that the note is lower, the 3khz band is affecting much higher partials:

Captura de Tela (27).png

 

Finally on stage voice, there is a situation closer to the initial sample, only now because of the higher level of closure, the energy content of the harmonics rise in relation to the fundamental:

Captura de Tela (28).png

Twang and 3rd partial are the dominant areas, with a slightly lower 2nd partial, and the fundamental bellow all of this. This is the profile you get with *covering*, also fits CVT *curbing*.

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1 hour ago, kickingtone said:

Even is such description and method "works" for some people, I agree that it is still of value to eventually know about Y.

But does that mean that it should be part of the instruction?

    It would not need to be part of the instruction if other things have worked. The idea is another tool that can be used. And it is another aspect to be explored by the researchers. This idea we are exploring now is for a particular sound used in a particular genre. A sound that is the goal of certain teachers and certain situations.

     It is not a sound used to help gain access to particular ranges but a sound expected after the range is accomplished. This is part of the polishing aspect. The spectrographic information does not tell how the sound was made but what resulted after a configuration had been used.

     The same Vocal tract shape with a different alignment at the level of  the vocal folds would give a different spectral footprint and sound. It may be similar but the sound may still be unfavorable for the genre.

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12 hours ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

In regards to the harmonic content:

On the first example where the 6th harmonic should be amplified this is the spectral distribution:

Captura de Tela (25).png

Both 6th and 5th harmonic have a boost, this is very consistent with the idea of *twang*, being close to the 3khz area.

On the second example, where he says it´s 5th harmonic:

Captura de Tela (26).png

Indeed the 5th harmonic is stronger on the twang region, but it´s on a very similar level to what it was before, it´s likely the darkening reduced twang and separated the clustering. Reducing twang is also consistent with the lowering of the energy level on the second partial in relation to the fundamental when compared to the first example.

The energy level of the third harmonic was also lowered. The fourth harmonic stayed pretty much where it was. It is easy to be selective about what you want to highlight.

There is no strong evidence here that the odd harmonics are getting emphasized over the even harmonics, which was the argument made to me. The argument said that edge increases the closed quotient, and the asymmetric vibration boosts the odd harmonics. The effect we see here is more consistent with resonance tuning than with altering of the source signal. Power seems to have shifted to the fifth harmonic from its odd and even neighbours.

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Yep, the 3rd partial is also lowered, which also indicates softer singing (less closure) and less twang. I was not being selective, it's just redundant.

This idea that "asymmetry of closure" emphasizes odd harmonics instead of even seems odd, can you point to the place where this was said?

The harmonics themselves, odd and even, are a consequence of the asymmetry of the signal that is produced by the vocal folds. Because during the closed phase there is no air passage, the pressure gradient happens only during the open phase, this is the main source of asymmetry. Then, considering just the open phase, the shape of the pulse can vary from closer to one half of a sine wave, to something closer to a saw tooth (or square) wave, which is a change in symmetry of this pulse considering it's attack and decay, in this sense more closure equals more asymmetry.

 

Higher closure levels move the signal towards the later and the energy level on all the harmonic spectra shifts in relation to the fundamental. Such as can be seen on the stage/full voice he does later on the video, represented in the 4th graph:

image.png

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22 minutes ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

The harmonics themselves, odd and even, are a consequence of the asymmetry of the signal that is produced by the vocal folds.

What does this even mean?

Are you suggesting that a "symmetric signal produced by the vocal folds" has no harmonics?

22 minutes ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Because during the closed phase there is no air passage, the pressure gradient happens only during the open phase, this is the main source of asymmetry.

What are you talking about? Temporal or spatial gradient? Are you saying that there is no pressure drop during the closed phase!

Perhaps if you define what you are calling symmetry, that would help. What is the related symmetric scenario?

 

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16 hours ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Finally on stage voice, there is a situation closer to the initial sample, only now because of the higher level of closure, the energy content of the harmonics rise in relation to the fundamental:

Captura de Tela (28).png

Twang and 3rd partial are the dominant areas, with a slightly lower 2nd partial, and the fundamental bellow all of this. This is the profile you get with *covering*, also fits CVT *curbing*.

   What program are you using?

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On 9/2/2019 at 3:04 PM, Felipe Carvalho said:

In regards to the harmonic content:

On the first example where the 6th harmonic should be amplified this is the spectral distribution:

Captura de Tela (25).png

Both 6th and 5th harmonic have a boost, this is very consistent with the idea of *twang*, being close to the 3khz area.

On the second example, where he says it´s 5th harmonic:

Captura de Tela (26).png

Indeed the 5th harmonic is stronger on the twang region, but it´s on a very similar level to what it was before, it´s likely the darkening reduced twang and separated the clustering. Reducing twang is also consistent with the lowering of the energy level on the second partial in relation to the fundamental when compared to the first example.

 

Then he demonstrates a vowel on the low range, again the profile is very similar to twang, and of course now that the note is lower, the 3khz band is affecting much higher partials:

Captura de Tela (27).png

 

Finally on stage voice, there is a situation closer to the initial sample, only now because of the higher level of closure, the energy content of the harmonics rise in relation to the fundamental:

Captura de Tela (28).png

Twang and 3rd partial are the dominant areas, with a slightly lower 2nd partial, and the fundamental bellow all of this. This is the profile you get with *covering*, also fits CVT *curbing*.

 

I do not understand what any of this means. But as a mathematician I am fascinated to find out!
What do those two figures represent?

 

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13 minutes ago, singing squirrel said:

 

I do not understand what any of this means. But as a mathematician I am fascinated to find out!
What do those two figures represent?

FFT of a sound wave for a note sung and held.

Vertical axis would be sound pressure represented in dB. Horizontal axis is frequency on a non-linear scale. The numbers in circles are kHz. Something called the "singer's formant" is a boost in the sound at around 3kHz to 3.5kHz. Classic singers target this area so that their vocals are not competing with the instrumental sounds which typically occupy a lower part of the spectrum.

The major peaks are the harmonics, referenced by the red arrows.

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