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kickingtone

This is falsetto, right?

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According to my understanding of the word, "falsetto", I am using falsetto in some places in the following clip (although not everywhere).

A definition I tend to use means that you can use falsetto on just about any note in your range, low or high. Falsetto is produced when your vocal folds vibrate without being compressed (and I think that that covers quite a lot of different shades of falsetto, and falsetto mix). I see falsetto first and foremost as stylistic. Not as a fallback for reaching high notes.

But, the following is a typical definition of falsetto. Look how strongly it has been associated with high pitch! They make it sound like a fallback method, rather than a style.

falsetto

/fɔːlˈsɛtəʊ,fɒlˈsɛtəʊ/

noun

MUSIC

a method of voice production used by male singers, especially tenors, to sing notes higher than their normal range.

"he sang in a piercing falsetto"

Similar: high voice high-pitched voice high-pitched tone shrill tone piercing tone ear-piercing tone

a singer using the falsetto method of voice production.

a voice or sound that is unusually high.

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I would not call that falsetto. I would call that "Mix"", "Head voice"" or "neutral".  Of course many people have their own understanding of falsetto.  My opinion is that Falsetto in a male voice has characteristics of the female head voice and/or  a mickey mouse sound....hollow or flutey. The vocal folds are just vibrating on the edge and there is little vocal fold mass involved. The sound is different because the voice does not produce as many over tones with falsetto as it does with full engagement of the vocal folds.

Even though you were singing light and you may have felt that something changed, the sound was still connected and consistent with the lower notes or a ""Modal" sound. The vocal folds were vibrating the full length with a good bit of vocal mass vibrating.

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Still fooling tail of the dog now silly knocker!

Ow I dont want to beet about the bullshit or bullshit about the bush now, but as ever you little singing clip has nothing to do with what you are talking about (which is complete twadal as usuall BTW) because I can not hear any fasselto in your singing (and I doubt MD can either)

But as allways in this job constructive critisum comes from selective hearing. An example of this would be a pannal of judges in a working mans sports and social tossers club who have never work in music before, never sang publiclly too and never undergone any form of musical training what so ever; who are auditioning profesanol singers who can only say I like that one better then the other for reasons they dont understand simplly because that song was there favorate and brought back the memorys of what a shit little life they where having at the time hear on prison planet and the other song was simply not there taste of music full stop! Lets face it you could be the greatest singer in the world but if they dont like listening to nessun dorma then it ant going to go down well and lets face it that the intellectual personalities of such a group is quite far away now from that of opera fans

 

So Back to SLMs fasseto, ow well I guess you could breifly hear it at the end of his cords he had sang as it would appear he had ran out of air, I would say more lack of breath support and allinment more then anything ells is wrong with his singing! But I am sure he knows all this from all the training study and practice he has done over all these years now ;) (tail of the dog now remember)

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On 11/26/2019 at 12:16 PM, kickingtone said:

falsetto

/fɔːlˈsɛtəʊ,fɒlˈsɛtəʊ/

noun

In my last life I had a walter mitty  dreamed and pretended to be a mathematician, well in this life i think I will pretend to be a philosopher and say intresting find SLM and where did you find it from and can you translate it to english, but more then likely we will not hear a responce as its not talking ner ner time again!

 

Now on the subject of /fɔːlˈsɛtəʊ,fɒlˈsɛtəʊ/

Hear is a record I did the other day. at 4.53 I say the word murder in /fɔːlˈsɛtəʊ,fɒlˈsɛtəʊ/ which is very breathy and then I turn into head voice. At the 17.15 the entire song is in /fɔːlˈsɛtəʊ,fɒlˈsɛtəʊ/

https://vocaroo.com/8EaQbq0m4NU

 

 

are found it

NOUNfalsettos

  • 1Music 
    A method of voice production used by male singers, especially tenors, to sing notes higher than their normal range.

    ‘he sang in a piercing falsetto’
    1. 1.1A singer using the falsetto method of voice production.
       
      ‘One second he's a falsetto, the next he's a baritone.’
    2. 1.2A voice or sound that is unusually high.
       
      ‘Philip answered in a prim falsetto’
      as modifier ‘a falsetto voice’

VS something completly different

 

Falsetto (/fɔːlˈsɛt, fɒlˈ-/, Italian: [falˈsetto]; Italian diminutive of falso, "false") is the vocal register occupying the frequency range just above the modal voice register and overlapping with it by approximately one octave.

It is produced by the vibration of the ligamentous edges of the vocal cords, in whole or in part. Commonly cited in the context of singing, falsetto, a characteristic of phonation by both sexes, is also one of four main spoken vocal registers recognized by speech pathology.

The term falsetto is most often used in the context of singing to refer to a type of vocal phonation that enables the singer to sing notes beyond the vocal range of the normal or modal voice.[1] The typical tone of falsetto register or M2, has usually a characteristic breathy[2][3] and flute-like sound relatively free of overtones[4][5]—which is more limited than its modal counterpart in both dynamic variation and tone quality.[6] However, William Vennard points out that while most untrained people can sound comparatively "breathy" or "hooty" when using falsetto production, there are in rarer cases individuals who have developed a much stronger falsetto sound production which has more "ring" to it.[7]

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11 hours ago, Jeremys Fool said:

The typical tone of falsetto register or M2, has usually a characteristic breathy[2][3] and flute-like sound relatively free of overtones[4][5]—which is more limited than its modal counterpart in both dynamic variation and tone quality.

   This is the KEY aspect of falsetto and distinguishes it from "Modal"(full voice, full head voice). "Relatively free of overtones" It Cannot produce over tones because of the coordination of the vocal folds. The folds become "Locked" into position, Only the thin edges of the vocal folds are vibrating. 

 

11 hours ago, Jeremys Fool said:

The typical tone of falsetto register or M2, has usually a characteristic breathy[2][3] and flute-like sound

   "Typical" means most often but not always. You can use a full modal headvoice and be breathy and flutey and NOT be using Falsetto. Breathy and flutey do not define Falsetto. The coordination of Thin folds and strong CT(cricothyroid) activity and little TA(thyroarytinoid) activity defines falsetto. The outer edge of the vocal folds become "Stiff" They can still Make contact while vibrating and not sound "Breathy" but the sound will still be distinct in tone and vibrational characteristics.

   Full voice can "Mimic" falsetto, Falsetto cannot "Mimic" full voice.

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Clearly, there are many different opinions on what falsetto is. I can find people who will tell you that the clip is ALL falsetto, as well as those who say there is NO falsetto AT ALL.

If we go by the overtone definition, it is not even clear how "relative" "relatively free of overtones" has to be for the sound to be falsetto. It's still a qualitative definition.

I looked at the spectrum of a sample of notes from my clip and there is a clear difference between the notes I would call falsetto, and the other notes. The fundamental frequency is the highest peak for the "falsetto" notes, and the peaks decrease on successive harmonics. On other notes the highest peak is not on the fundamental. So, what I am seeing is not inconsistent with this definition of falsetto. (I know vowel also comes into it, but I took a representative sample.)

In fact, at the end of the quoted article it suggests that falsetto can have a "ring" to it. This is not surprising as you have to take into account what all the filters and resonators may be doing to the source signal. This is a non-linear process that can readily create and accentuate a harmonic, even if you start ONLY with the fundamental.

I even think that falsetto is more a quality than a mode, in that you can bring it in or out in degrees. i.e you can mix it with modes. I don't know exactly how that would work physically (perhaps a portion of the vocal folds are in falsetto mode). I can certainly feel when I am mixing in what I call falsetto. It feels different from simple lightening of the tone.

I don't think that falsetto is measured by airiness. It may be the case for some vocal support methods that rely on vocal fold compression. But other methods allow the air to be held back more independently of vocal fold compression. So the folds can be in falsetto mode without leaking so much air. And then reconnection to modal is not ALWAYS impossible.

Finally, I do feel the transition from falsetto to modal and vice versa, especially if I am looking for it.

A really "simple" example, is "John Brown's Body". In my mind the phases are basically plaintive-plaintive-plaintive-triumphant. For me, going slightly falsetto can introduce that plaintive sound. So you have to be able to mix the falsetto in and out. It is easy to flip (instead of phase) if you are not careful. That is why I say that no song is simple. The so-called "simple" ones help you to practise SOMETHING.

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    I know that people use the term to mean different things. Even the dictionary definition can be used to mean anything above the passaggio because the CT must be involved when singing above G4 in men and G5 in women.

     The definition I use is what I stated Because there is a physical as well as tonal and vibrational change that is distinct from a modal sound , configuration and vibration. The sound can be Airy and flutey and hollow like Mickey Mouse or a Man imitating a Female voice or it can be tight and closed like Beegees singing "Staying Alive".

     What I am calling "Falsetto" others may call "Whistle voice" at too low of a frequency to have the "Whistle" characteristic sound. A separate physical change may take place between the "Falsetto" configuration and "Whistle" configuration.

    At any rate, There is a distinct difference between Falsetto and "headvoice" to my ears. Maybe it is a quality that some others do not listen for or they have been taught to listen for a different quality that I myself do not hear.

   I am not saying that others must use my definition of falsetto, I am merely stating the definition I use and Why I use that definition.

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12 hours ago, MDEW said:

   This is the KEY aspect of falsetto and distinguishes it from "Modal"(full voice, full head voice). "Relatively free of overtones" It Cannot produce over tones because of the coordination of the vocal folds. The folds become "Locked" into position, Only the thin edges of the vocal folds are vibrating. 

 

 

8 hours ago, kickingtone said:

If we go by the overtone definition, it is not even clear how "relative" "relatively free of overtones" has to be for the sound to be falsetto. It's still a qualitative definition.

im pretty sure there is no over tone ringing to me when i do fasetto

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On 11/28/2019 at 11:12 PM, MDEW said:

The definition I use is what I stated Because there is a physical as well as tonal and vibrational change that is distinct from a modal sound , configuration and vibration. The sound can be Airy and flutey and hollow like Mickey Mouse or a Man imitating a Female voice or it can be tight and closed like Beegees singing "Staying Alive".

...I am not saying that others must use my definition of falsetto, I am merely stating the definition I use and Why I use that definition.

No, but I still want to  know what people mean when they use the word.

I can't claim to have much of a scientific basis to what I call falsetto. Like most words, I just associated it with something, and that stuck. Then confirmation bias, whatever, sort of made the other considerations fit in. I think that there is a real muddle over the word. I used to think that there was a "core" sound that was unequivocally falsetto, and everyone would agree while they argued around the fringes. But even that notion has been shot to pieces. I've seen YouTube vids and comments saying that one person or the other has it (and head voice) the wrong way round.

I've forgotten what Mickey Mouse sounds like, so I googled it... I definitely have heard of "Mickey Mouse falsetto" but the voice actor I chanced upon didn't sound falsetto to me. Maybe I picked the wrong voice actor.

Anyway, this is about as airy as I can get (end of phrases only, esp last 2). I associate it more with whispering than falsetto -- definitely not flutey! But reading what you wrote, the mass of the vocal folds can be vibrating without making contact, and it is still not falsetto. For falsetto, the folds are stiff, and only the edges vibrate? I wonder how you can tell without a scope? And did anyone put a scope down Mickey Mouse's tonsils? (btw, my memories of Mickey Mouse are only of a very childlike voice.)

 

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2 hours ago, kickingtone said:

Anyway, this is about as airy as I can get (end of phrases only, esp last 2). I associate it more with whispering than falsetto -- definitely not flutey!

 

four fk sake! hear we go again! Fooling! and foollings ones self as everyone ells has awoken and realised silly little man is his own little fool. I think we should market this one as fooling under the moon light (well done you sofisticated smart ass sound enginer for adding such great reverb BTW)

I mean you now talk about this is your breathy clip (nothing to do with falsetto BTW) and where the hell is the breathy nessss, I mean what planet do you live on, I mean what ass hole do you live up! appart from your own of cource, BECAUSE this is not a breathy singing clip! now head out of your ass and back on your sholders now sun shine!!

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12 hours ago, Jeremys Fool said:

four fk sake! hear we go again! Fooling! and foollings ones self as everyone ells has awoken and realised silly little man is his own little fool. I think we should market this one as fooling under the moon light (well done you sofisticated smart ass sound enginer for adding such great reverb BTW)

I mean you now talk about this is your breathy clip (nothing to do with falsetto BTW) and where the hell is the breathy nessss, I mean what planet do you live on, I mean what ass hole do you live up! appart from your own of cource, BECAUSE this is not a breathy singing clip! now head out of your ass and back on your sholders now sun shine!!

 

12 hours ago, Jeremys Fool said:

four fk sake! hear we go again!

Yes, here we go again with your own crap. Kicking tone is experimenting with his voice and paying attention to the changes in the sound and feel of it. THAT is how you learn and improve. Checking the difference and making adjustments. If you always do the same thing the same way you get the same results.

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ow Im sorry it last thing at night before bed

1 hour ago, MDEW said:

 

Yes, here we go again with your own crap.

But I am tied of all the bullshit on line, weather its SLM or the jimmyshitforbrains bollyboy club, or the wonder-bee-dream-trip-shit-fk-wits on the joinmyband.co.uk site

 

1 hour ago, MDEW said:

 

Kicking tone is experimenting with his voice and paying attention to the changes in the sound and feel of it. THAT is how you learn and improve. 

Hes not learning anything!

Tail of the dog now MD (remember)

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38 minutes ago, Jeremys Fool said:

But I am tied of all the bullshit on line, weather its SLM or the jimmyshitforbrains bollyboy club, or the wonder-bee-dream-trip-shit-fk-wits on the joinmyband.co.uk site

 

And I am tired of the BS too. And the BS is coming from you.  " bollyboy club"   You talk about the Bollyboy club, but on this forum YOU are the bully. If you are tired of the BS, STOP spreading it.

 

38 minutes ago, Jeremys Fool said:

Hes not learning anything!

Tail of the dog now MD (remember)

Learning what your voice can do and how to change it, is NOT the tail of the dog.  Recording your voice and making changes is the ONLY way to improve. You record, listen for flaws and address them. 

 

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19 hours ago, kickingtone said:

I've forgotten what Mickey Mouse sounds like, so I googled it... I definitely have heard of "Mickey Mouse falsetto" but the voice actor I chanced upon didn't sound falsetto to me. Maybe I picked the wrong voice actor.

Anyway, this is about as airy as I can get (end of phrases only, esp last 2). I associate it more with whispering than falsetto -- definitely not flutey! But reading what you wrote, the mass of the vocal folds can be vibrating without making contact, and it is still not falsetto. For falsetto, the folds are stiff, and only the edges vibrate? I wonder how you can tell without a scope? And did anyone put a scope down Mickey Mouse's tonsils? (btw, my memories of Mickey Mouse are only of a very childlike voice.)

The sound of falsetto in a male would sound like Mrs Bucket when she is speaking high.

This is an easy sound to make for a male to sing high but it does not work with Rock songs. Some males have to really work at it to find a sound in the high range that DOES NOT sound like this. This is Falsetto. Falsetto is not just adding air, and this sound does have the folds making contact but there is not enough body to the folds to produce lower harmonics. So a male will sound more like a female.

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that is one of my favorate sic comes BTW, but I am afraid you are now fooling tail of the dog now MD, because thats not falsetto or anything breath 

And second falsetto dose work on rock songs, listen to judist preast nights come down

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2 hours ago, MDEW said:

The sound of falsetto in a male would sound like Mrs Bucket when she is speaking high.

This is an easy sound to make for a male to sing high but it does not work with Rock songs. Some males have to really work at it to find a sound in the high range that DOES NOT sound like this. This is Falsetto. Falsetto is not just adding air, and this sound does have the folds making contact but there is not enough body to the folds to produce lower harmonics. So a male will sound more like a female.

How on Earth do you know about Keeping Up Appearances.

OK, I'm starting to get your definition, and I have now found a Mickey Mouse video with the characteristic. It also does agree with what can be produced if the voice "cracks or flips".

Maybe that is one way to produce the sound, just let the voice crack -- but boy, doing that for any length of time sounds very uncomfortable. I think I'd go hoarse within seconds. I'd liken it to the vocal folds skidding instead of rolling.

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3 hours ago, kickingtone said:

How on Earth do you know about Keeping Up Appearances.

Our public TV would show BBC comedies. The humor is a little different but it falls more in line with my own sense of humor. I may possibly be related to one of the actors in "Last of the Summer Wine". But it is a long shot and I have no means to prove it.

 

3 hours ago, kickingtone said:

Maybe that is one way to produce the sound, just let the voice crack -- but boy, doing that for any length of time sounds very uncomfortable. I think I'd go hoarse within seconds. I'd liken it to the vocal folds skidding instead of rolling.

For those of us who "have" to use falsetto when singing higher ... we have no choice but to "Let the voice Crack". That is why I insist that "Falsetto" is different and a coordination of its own. To go into and out of "Falsetto" there will be an obvious break. A smooth transition is NOT using falsetto.

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1 hour ago, MDEW said:

For those of us who "have" to use falsetto when singing higher ... we have no choice but to "Let the voice Crack". That is why I insist that "Falsetto" is different and a coordination of its own. To go into and out of "Falsetto" there will be an obvious break. A smooth transition is NOT using falsetto.

But there is stylistic chest falsetto, where transition can be smooth on low notes with lower air pressure. And I think that falsetto mix is possible there, too.

I can understand how it may be "impossible" to reconnect smoothly after falsetto is used on very high notes. You basically need a fresh onset.

Even then, I think that a smooth transition can sometimes still happen in the easier direction (modal to falsetto).

I checked my second clip in Audacity, and the airy notes are even more "falsettoey" than the first clip, according to reduced overtones measure. I am seeing the fundamental frequency 18 to 24 decibels stronger than the next strongest harmonic. So, I am not sure that that definition and the "falsettoey" sound marry up.

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The difference is that Chest voice/full voice can mimic Falsetto. In other words in a full connected chest voice where you have full vibration of the vocal folds the  folds can be "lightened" or "Thinned" to the point of sounding like falsetto without loosing the full vibration of the vocal folds. When in "Falsetto" you cannot make the vocal folds "Heavier" or meaty enough to sound like "Full Voice" because ONLY the outer layer of the vocal folds is engaged. Some people describe Falsetto as using "Stiff Folds"" to modal voice as "Soft folds"

Take a song like Bob Seger and "Old Time Rock and Roll"",  The song '"as recorded" is in the key of G with  most of the singing centered at B4. You can sing it using falsetto but it will come out sounding like the BeeGees or Miss Piggy or Mickey Mouse or Mrs Bucket instead of sounding like Bob Seger.  Sure you could lower your larynx while singing but then it would sound like "King of the Hill" or Barney Rubble instead of Bob Seger. Falsetto can NOT vibrate like Full Voice. A full "Head voice" can produce notes Higher than a Falsetto coordination.

   I guess it really only makes a difference to those who seem to be "Stuck" in falsetto when singing above the "Break" or passaggio. Those who can produce a Modal sound and a Falsetto sound above passagio(around G4) have the choice and regard it as just a lighter coordination. Singing higher is just a matter of thinning out a little more but when you cannot maintain a connection through the break you first need to learn HOW to maintain that connection without "Flipping into falsetto".

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50 minutes ago, MDEW said:

The difference is that Chest voice/full voice can mimic Falsetto. In other words in a full connected chest voice where you have full vibration of the vocal folds the  folds can be "lightened" or "Thinned" to the point of sounding like falsetto without loosing the full vibration of the vocal folds.

But, if falsetto is defined by the sound (fundamental plus weak harmonics), then mimicking the sound is the sound. How else can you mimic the sound without having a similar spectrum?

On the other hand, if you use a more qualitative definition, of vocal fold mass vibration, there are a heap of other factors that will impact on the final sound. Who's to say definitely what could or could not be falsetto, just by listening?

And if you were to insist on defining falsetto to be both of the characteristics, then, what would be the use? You'd need a scope to know if you were doing falsetto, because the sound wouldn't tell you. It could be something mimicking falsetto, or it could be falsetto sounding like something else. I mean if you said that falsetto is defined by the spectral output, AND excludes other things that mimic the same spectral output, the only way you could rule those other things out would be with a scope down the tonsils! But then, who cares. The singer has produced the desired sound SOMEHOW... unless you can INSTINCTIVELY FEEL how much vocal mass is vibrating and could be instructed to stiffen the folds etc. 

 

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2 minutes ago, kickingtone said:

But, if falsetto is defined by the sound (fundamental plus weak harmonics), then mimicking the sound is the sound. How else can you mimic the sound without having a similar spectrum?

The sound does not define "Falsetto" The coordination does. The coordination  produces this particular sound and a particular type of vibration.   There are different layers to the vocal folds and you can have varying degrees of involvement of these layers. The Thyroarytenoid muscles or TA ARE the vocal folds. The vocal folds are attached to the front and back of the larynx. The larynx Tilts. The CT or Crycothyroid muscle Tilts the larynx and Stretches the Vocal Folds.With Falsetto the main body of the Vocal fold is RELAXED or disengaged and only the outer edge of the vocal fold is vibrating.

    So you have the CT which stretches the Vocal Folds and the TA, the vocal folds them selves that can be made to Thicken up or Thin out depending on their degree of engagement or contraction. In Modal voice(speaking/full voice) the CT and TA muscles work together and the entire mass of the vocal folds vibrate. At the lower end the TA muscles are dominant and the CT is passive. At Passaggio the dominance is handed off to the CT muscles BUT the TA are still involved and vibrating. For the CT to be able to stretch the vocal cords....The TA needs to thinned(contracted less) OR the CT must have enough strength and room to stretch the TA. With falsetto the the TA gives up completely and ONLY the outer layer or epithelium or superficial layer  is vibrating.spacer.png

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What you are suggesting is that you CANNOT definitively tell from the sound if it is falsetto. But you CAN tell if it is NOT falsetto.

-- If the sound is "relatively free" of overtones then it MAY be falsetto, OR it may be something that mimics falsetto.

-- If the overtone content is too high then it is NOT falsetto.

After all, we have been discussing this, and giving examples according to SOUND.

BUT...

I guess that this "indication" from the sound is theoretical. i.e claiming that the vibrational modes of the lighter edges of the vocal folds CANNOT produce much in the way of overtones, and that they WILL be roughly sinusoidal. Has such a theory EVER been tested for vocal fold mass? And, even if the vibrational mode is sinusoidal, is the amplified sound (amplified by resonators in a non-linear fashion) also so simple? We are talking about a biological instrument here. Schematics can give a basic outline, but biology varies hugely. On top of that, there are so few test subjects who have had scopes shoved down their tonsils for scientifically controlled testing.

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    The sound characteristic is a by product of the coordination. For some music and singing styles/genres/position in  choral arrangement, the sound is perfectly suited. 

In most cases you CAN hear a difference between falsetto and full voice...even though it may not show up on a spectrograph. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female voice by looking at a spectrograph? Probably not ,but, MOST of the time you can tell the difference between a female singer and a male singer from the sound even when they are singing in the same range.

    The only reason it makes a difference and the difference needs to be defined is when singers can only make this coordination to sing beyond the passaggio and the style of music calls for a different sound.  The falsetto is basically stuck and limited in sound production. It is not that falsetto is not useful but that fullvoice/mixed voice is more controllable and useful (when you can produce it).

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18 minutes ago, MDEW said:

Can you tell the difference between a male and a female voice by looking at a spectrograph? Probably not ,but, MOST of the time you can tell the difference between a female singer and a male singer from the sound even when they are singing in the same range.

But I could probably tell the "spectrograph" of a piece of flute music from sax music, which is more in line with what we are talking about. There is no SIMPLE spectral difference between a male voice and a female voice, and people can even sometimes mistake the actual voices.

18 minutes ago, MDEW said:

The only reason it makes a difference and the difference needs to be defined is when singers can only make this coordination to sing beyond the passaggio and the style of music calls for a different sound.

But you're back to sound again. If you can hear the difference, why do you need to define the coordination? Would you tell the student to kindly stop stiffening his doodah (vocal folds, whatever). How do you use the definition?

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