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hi folks, in my work on foreigner's "urgent" i discovered a way to sing that i'd like share with you because i think it might be something to try when you are singing songs like jonpall with his richie kotzen and chris cornell type vocals.

but is it safe? i need steve fraser or rob to tell me that.

man, is this going to hard to explain. the best way to describe it is you let the air pass through partially opened vocal cords with pretty high velocity (support) and a lower larynx position and try to create resonance, significant hollow-like rumbling from your throat and mouth. some lines you'll sing like this and others you will modulate the cord closure like a periodic glottal stop if you will, to prevent yourself from locking into strain yet get that strained sound. it's almost as if you are coughing a melody.

ever try it? your abs feel like they're bouncing around on you.

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It would be cool to get Steven or Robert to chime in on this. But also remember what he who's name we do not speak of always said - if it doesn't hurt your throat and you like the sound, it's all good and safe singing. Also, do post a clip of this new sound of yours to help Steven and Robert (or others) help you.

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It would be cool to get Steven or Robert to chime in on this. But also remember what he who's name we do not speak of always said - if it doesn't hurt your throat and you like the sound, it's all good and safe singing. Also, do post a clip of this new sound of yours to help Steven and Robert (or others) help you.

i'll warmup tonight and post..the way i see it it may be how the others i mentioned get that sound you and i both love and admire.

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Bob: Yes, as you describe it... its safe to do, but there is a cost.

To explain what is going on: The technique you describe prevents full glottal closure, by leaving a chink at the back of the vocal bands, right where they attach to the arytenoid cartileges. The resulting phonated sound is noisier, and without twanging, would sound breathy. In a light, higher voice, the result is a sort of Rod Stewart effect, though Rod's phonation is on the breathier end of this. In a larger voice like yours, I would expect the effect to be like Bill Medley, baritone in the Righteous Brothers (if done in the low to mid voice), Michael Bolton, or Michael McDonald, Michael Jackson & Terence Trent D'Arby if taken in a more soulful expression and higher in the range, and with occasional rasp.

The costs? Doing this loudly makes the vocal bands work harder, and dry out faster, so some care must be taken not to overdo it. Also, you'll notice that your phrase lengths will have to be fairly short, as the air passes through the glottis rapidly, as you have mentioned. The sensations of support will be different, and the quality of the voice being 'in the pocket' at the top of the back of the throat may not be possible at all.

There can be some twang/ring in this kind of production, and the singers who employ this kind of phonation all seem to use it to keep the brightness going. What there will not be is great vocal power. When the glottis is even partly open this way, a great deal of the sound reflecting back into the vocal tract, that is, the pressure waves headed back down toward the vocal bands, will simply continue into the trachea. This pressure leakage strongly attenuates (softens) the resonance of the voice... which is part of the effect.

On the upside, the tone can be used to create a completely different range of vocal colors, which are quite suited for certain songs and styles. And, as has been mentioned... if there is no pain or strain involved, its an aesthetic choice. Who knows, maybe this will open up your karaoke songlist to James Brown tunes :-)

/edit: If you do it without twang, you will sound a bit like Dean Martin's 'Everybody loves somebody sometime'.

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hi folks, in my work on foreigner's "urgent" i discovered a way to sing that i'd like share with you because i think it might be something to try when you are singing songs like jonpall with his richie kotzen and chris cornell type vocals.

but is it safe? i need steve fraser or rob to tell me that.

man, is this going to hard to explain. the best way to describe it is you let the air pass through partially opened vocal cords with pretty high velocity (support) and a lower larynx position and try to create resonance, significant hollow-like rumbling from your throat and mouth. some lines you'll sing like this and others you will modulate the cord closure like a periodic glottal stop if you will, to prevent yourself from locking into strain yet get that strained sound. it's almost as if you are coughing a melody.

ever try it? your abs feel like they're bouncing around on you.

Dang it, Bob, I wished I had written that. You just described what I mean by leaky air. Now, you're gonna get it.

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Bob is the effect you're talking about somewhat similar to this (Michael Bolton blowing the audience's minds live):

.

I wouldn't mind being able to do this vocal effect. But Michael should have really fired his barber in the 80's and done some rock tunes as well. (I've come to realize that being a front man is all about the hair.)

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hi folks, in my work on foreigner's "urgent" i discovered a way to sing that i'd like share with you because i think it might be something to try when you are singing songs like jonpall with his richie kotzen and chris cornell type vocals.

but is it safe? i need steve fraser or rob to tell me that.

man, is this going to hard to explain. the best way to describe it is you let the air pass through partially opened vocal cords with pretty high velocity (support) and a lower larynx position and try to create resonance, significant hollow-like rumbling from your throat and mouth. some lines you'll sing like this and others you will modulate the cord closure like a periodic glottal stop if you will, to prevent yourself from locking into strain yet get that strained sound. it's almost as if you are coughing a melody.

ever try it? your abs feel like they're bouncing around on you.

Didn't know my buddy jonpall was singing some Kotzen lol. that's why he can help me so much with richie kotzen tones lol. Or maybe you mispelled joshual, as i'm the Kotzen freak on this forum lol.

Anyway, as its the tone i'm looking for, i can tell that for me i try not let so much air pass through, because it tire the voice really quickly. I try to maintain the tongue high in the back of the throat to let the larynx rise freely. i try to twang a lot and the "tip" that jonpall gave me: let the soft palate go down for the rasp. It may be the soft palate going down that let some air pass through the nasal cavity...

Hope it helps....

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Joshual, maybe Bob was referring to you, or maybe he thinks I sound slightly like these two singers.

I think that the type of rasp I was doing in the past was mostly creaking between curbing and overdrive (done by the true folds) similar to Alice Cooper and Nickleback and, more recently, distortion of the false folds which sounds more like Axl Rose, Chris Cornell, Steven Tyler, Rob Halford, Brian Johnson and Bon Jovi.

But this is one of the more interesting topics I've seen in the while on this site because I think we're talking about a type of rasp that hasn't been examined much but can be heard in many famous singers like Michael Bolton, Rod Stewart, Steve Perry (in Seperate ways and Oh Sherry), Huey Lewis, Bryan Adams, probably Lou Gramm, Terence Trent D'Arby, probably Richie Kotzen, Bill Medley from the Righteous Brothers, sometimes Bruce Springsteen, John Farnham and more.

Some of those use more or less air and some use more or less hold/cry and some use more or less volume, although it's probably healthiest to have it on the lower side.

Steven Fraser, could you verify that this list of mine is accurate, please?

It's that "airy" rasp and it's very soulful. No better or worse than any other type of rasp, growl, etc. But I do believe most people love that effect.

I just spoke to a very knowledgable CVT guy on MSN today about this effect and we came to the conclusion that it's this type of of vocal effect:

Creaking between neutral with air and curbing.

For some singers, they might have distortion of the false folds too, i.e. overtwanging, as part of the sound. Personally, this is a new realm for me, so I look forwards to learning more about it.

To try to do it, you could start by singing a very low and breathy note in your low or middle range and gradually add a hold/cry until you hear rasp. Then experiment with singing words with that sound and move it up your range but never let it hurt your throat. He also thought it would be important to have the soft palate low (so it's probably a good idea not to drop your larynx down too much, Bob).

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I was trying this out. It's not that hard on low notes but for me at the moment it's really tough in the passagio and higher notes, because of the air leaking. I advise people to only try this out for a short amount of time when first trying it out.

I'm also wondering if the analysis in my last post could be incorrect. Perhaps it's just distortion of the false folds, i.e. overtwanging, but done very lightly, especially on the high notes of guys like Lou Gramm and Michael Bolton - and maybe it just SOUNDS like air is leaking but it's really not? Steven, or others, any comments?

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Bob is the effect you're talking about somewhat similar to this (Michael Bolton blowing the audience's minds live):
.

I wouldn't mind being able to do this vocal effect. But Michael should have really fired his barber in the 80's and done some rock tunes as well. (I've come to realize that being a front man is all about the hair.)

okay, i've got a lot to reply to here....lol!!!

first josh, sorry man, i thought it was jonpall who loved kotzen, but this technique i'm using to sing "urgent" could definitely be used for kotzen.

jonpall, you have mentioned a lot of the singers that probably use what i'm alluding to.

jonpall, you mentioned about how i got you to appreciate lou gramm's vocals but i guess you didn't know that bolton (one of my favorites) actually started out in rock....and did classical and blues too check these out!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX0c5hc1REU&feature=related

how bout this?

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here's an excellent example of what i'm alluding to...do you hear the rumbling, (not really a rasp, i hear it as a rumbling overtone) type of thing yet free sound interspersed within the song?

skip to 2:10 and he starts right out with it....then please check 6:00 on

i.m.h.o., that is one awesome vocal acoutrement!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdtahYZ3Dk

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Bob, in that last Foreigner clip, around 2:10, it sounds to me that his sound is slightly breathy - here he's singing low notes, but later in the clip around 6:00 it does NOT sound breathy - here he's singing high notes. Sounds perhaps a blend of distortion and creaking. Anyone else want to chime in?

Also, about Michael Bolton, yeah, I knew that he'd done some rock before and I'd heard some of it. But he's mostly known around the world for his ballads. Guess it's all about the hair, then ;)

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Bob, in that last Foreigner clip, around 2:10, it sounds to me that his sound is slightly breathy - here he's singing low notes, but later in the clip around 6:00 it does NOT sound breathy - here he's singing high notes. Sounds perhaps a blend of distortion and creaking. Anyone else want to chime in?

Also, about Michael Bolton, yeah, I knew that he'd done some rock before and I'd heard some of it. But he's mostly known around the world for his ballads. Guess it's all about the hair, then ;)

oh sorry, by the way you commented i thought you didn't know.

a lot of vowel mods. in this gramm stuff. i have learned a lot just studying this guy.

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Steven Fraser, here is that Michael Bolton live clip again, which, although I don't really like his music that much, is a great example of these type of vocals:

I realize that on low notes, this might be done by letting some air leak (*edited later - no, it could simply be curbing - both in the low and high notes*), but in this clip he's singing mostly in the tenor range, in the passagio. Could you check this out and guess whether he's being airy to create his rasp or just using his false folds some how to create it? Perhaps his false folds are vibrating very, very slightly, giving the illusion of breathyness?

I'm asking because I'm trying to be breathy in the tenor range with some hold/cry and it just isn't working, so I'm wondering if it's the false folds instead or air.

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I was reading the CVT book and listening to its associated sound clips online, with this thread in mind, and right now I have the feeling that this sound we're discussing is simply creaking.

Creaking is when you're singing in between two vocal modes, one of which has to be curbing.

Here's something that the CVT book says on how to create this effect and in the sound files it sounds VERY close to that Lou Gramm/Michael Bolton rasp (check files 236, 238 and 240):

Practise creaking by singing Overdrive in the centre of the mode on the vowel 'OH' (as in 'so), now decrease the volume a bit and change the vowel towards 'OR' (as in 'order'). Creaking will occur.

Steven? Guys? What do you think? :) Right now I'm just not buying it that this rasp is really produced by letting excessive air out but that it simply sounds that way. Well, not unless creaking IS essentially letting excessive air leak out.

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I was reading the CVT book and listening to its associated sound clips online, with this thread in mind, and right now I have the feeling that this sound we're discussing is simply creaking.

Creaking is when you're singing in between two vocal modes, one of which has to be curbing.

Here's something that the CVT book says on how to create this effect and in the sound files it sounds VERY close to that Lou Gramm/Michael Bolton rasp (check files 236, 238 and 240):

Steven? Guys? What do you think? :) Right now I'm just not buying it that this rasp is really produced by letting excessive air out but that it simply sounds that way. Well, not unless creaking IS essentially letting excessive air leak out.

the sound i'm trying to describe i produce at lower notes.... punchy air is flowing past the chords with high velosity totally unrestricted and a relaxed throat...i know, i have to post.

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I've always had a special place in my heart for B.B. I never knew he dueted with Michael. I wasn't into Michael's ballad years. and I didn't know his harder rock origins. It seems to me, for my taste, probably, that his ballad years had too much rasp. I realize some others prefer that and that's fine. Which is not to take away from his prowess. To do that much rasp in at such high pitches had to take some doing, at least it sounded to me. It might have easy for him. Probably because of his voice type.

Like the mention of Huey Lewis. Huey Lewis' speaking voice is very much like his singing voice, or vice versa. And his beginnings were in harder rock with a band called White Clover. And he can act. I totally enjoyed his cameo appearance in "Back to the Future." "I'm afraid you're just too darn loud."

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here's the sound i was talking about and a singing application. maybe you guys already know this, but it's a new thing for me. i kinda go off on a tangent after the little foreigner piece....i'm not even sure i sang real words....lol!!!!

http://www.box.net/shared/ynpd3tjfzs

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I was reading the CVT book and listening to its associated sound clips online, with this thread in mind, and right now I have the feeling that this sound we're discussing is simply creaking.

Creaking is when you're singing in between two vocal modes, one of which has to be curbing.

Here's something that the CVT book says on how to create this effect and in the sound files it sounds VERY close to that Lou Gramm/Michael Bolton rasp (check files 236, 238 and 240):

Steven? Guys? What do you think? :) Right now I'm just not buying it that this rasp is really produced by letting excessive air out but that it simply sounds that way. Well, not unless creaking IS essentially letting excessive air leak out.

jonpall, Bob: I think we have too many sounds in discussion at the same time :-)

Creaking is not letting excessive air out. Creaking happens exactly as you describe... when singing an unresonant vowel, 'between' modes, and especially at the lower volume levels.

(Warning: what follows is voice acoustically geeky)

Furthermore, the sound we are discussing does not get breathy by the motions of the false folds. False fold oscillation, (repeated motion) creates interference in the phonation pulse waves, introducing non-harmonic components (heard sometimes as raspyness, roughness or 'soulful quality') to the basic phonated tone quality. If done with overtwanging, this can be an intense, expressive sound... but its not likely to be breathy unless the basic phonated tone is also breathy... the nonharmonic (noise) profile is different. False-fold effects overlay additional partial (in this case, strong but non-harmonic) components to the phonated tone, whereas breathiness adds white-noise complexity (broadband noise) to the phonated tone. The resulting tone qualities when resonated are audibly different.

I think I should go looking for some samples of this to graph out for you. The spectrograph of these distorted sounds shows what components (partials) of the sound produce these impressions. Non-harmonic partials (sound components unrelated to the fundamental) add complexity to the sound, which leads to tone quality impressions on our part.

I did an article for the main site some time ago about distortion in Steven Tyler's scream. Its at

http://www.themodernvocalist.com/profiles/blogs/distortion-in-steven-tylers

I think I will have to do a sonographic analysis of several of these artists we have been discussing, to see how the sound profiles are alike or different. That should help us get a bit away from the subjective, auditory impressions, and toward a more acoustic-and-phonation based analysis. Knowing those things should help us somewhat in describing the specific phonation and resonance characteristics.

(end of voice-geek-speak).

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Thanks, Steven, that sounds great.

So you're saying that this type of rasp is leaky air on top of both twang and cry/hold? That doesn't really sense to me because both twang and cry/hold reduce breathyness. Also, when I try it, my voice breaks into a yodel. Again, very little problem doing it below the passagio.

Also, Steven and people, if you have the chance to check the CVT audio files 236, 238 and 240 (creaking examples), please do and tell me if you think it's the same effect as Gramm/Bolton.

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After talking more to my CVT friend about this, it's likely that this is both creaking and very slight distortion at the same time. But when I say slight distortion I mean doing the same motion as when you're overtwanging to create distortion, but not enough to make the false folds actually vibrate. This, in addition to the creaking, creates a sort of a "turbulance", i.e. extra air passing through, which is the basis for that sound - if I understood this correctly.

here's the sound i was talking about and a singing application. maybe you guys already know this, but it's a new thing for me. i kinda go off on a tangent after the little foreigner piece....i'm not even sure i sang real words....lol!!!!

http://www.box.net/shared/ynpd3tjfzs

Ok, Bob, now I'm officially a bit jealous because I didn't expect you to nail this as well as you did. And I'm being very honest and not just being nice :) . Now you have to find ways to teach this to people.

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