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Don't stop believing - cover

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jonpall
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Excellent performance. You have a "thicker", or fuller voice than Perry, just for comparison. That is, you have some overtones in your voice that he doesn't have, even at the same pitch. Speaking of which, you are on point with the pitch. And perfect timing, as far as I am concerned. It was as good as Perry, but with your stronger sounding voice. Well done and I liked it. You didn't try to sound like him but you hit every lick like it was your song. And it was your song.

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Hey that sounds really good jonpall! You nailed those high B's perfectly! That's a tough song. I'm actually working on the same song. I was going to ask you if you thought Steve Perry is curbing in a lot of that song. The vowels he uses just don't seem like curbing to me and he puts a little air on sometimes (it seems) and I was wondering if he is in neutral most of the time? He seems to sing in a generally lighter mode. I'm approaching the song like you with a stronger tone.

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It sounds like Perry imitation. Not natural sound. Strange singing manner. Dont go this path. Your Bon Jovi cover is IMO better then original, but this... i dont like it much.

-------> This is what I mean natural sound. It is one the best cover ive ever heard.

I'm actually working on the same song.

Me too. A little contest show ? :)

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Yo deva, why is it that jonpall has to sound like Steve Perry? Or Bon Jovi? Why can't he just sound like jon? If you know so much about singing, why don't you tell him how to do what you think he needs to do? He is quite an accomplished singer (more than most) and is even better at following instruction than I am. I know it's tough for you, this board mainly conversing in English. You'll have to understand, jonpall comes from a country of high technology and achievements in science. So, he would need more exact language than go another path. What specfically did you not like about his performance. Was it off pitch? Slippery timing? Uneven volume or wrong volume in parts. I personally thought he was overpowering in the beginning but that is stylistic and not a technical problem and wasn't worth commenting on. It was him singing as himself.

Or have I been getting it wrong? Are we supposed to sound like the singers of the song that we cover?

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Ronws , You misunderstood my comment. I meant quite the opposite. I don't suggest that we should sound like the singers of the song we cover. You're reading between the lines :)

When I said " It sounds like Perry imitation. Not natural sound " did I suggest that imitating the cover is right...I don't think so...and second thing if I said that his recording of Bon Jovi was much better than original does it mean for you that he should sing LIKE Bon Jovi since I said that he is even better than the original performer of the song ??? I don't get you :)

I really appreciate jonpal's singing skills and talent but in this particular song I think he sounds unnatural in comparison with his other covers. I don't feel like a professional coach to give you more exact language but it was my first impression after having listened to this recording.

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Thanks everyone for the comments. It's extremely helpful to record yourself and post it here in order to learn about singing and improve your voice. Here's what I think of this take of mine. I wanted to wait a bit for a few people to comment before I said what I think :) Here goes:

I was pretty concious of singing with twang. But it seems that I wasn't thinking at all about having a yawn sensation, which lowers the larynx, raises the soft palate and gives a good sounding balance of low overtones in addition to the high ones that come from twanging. So therefore, there are some notes, words and phrases that I'm quite happy with, but some who sound far too thin and even nasal for my taste. The ones I like are the thicker sounding ones. What I want to do is to do a version of this song with a very full voice, kind of like Steve Perry in "Seperate ways" more so than on Don't stop believing, because I think Steve Perry sounded better on Seperate ways. And I also really like Arnel Pineda's sound, who also has a very full sound on his high notes. So I'm going to record another version of Don't stop believing as soon as I can and see just how full a sound I can produce (more to my liking), but still having the edge and sharpness from the twang. So I guess I was singing mostly in curbing with a light sound colour and twang. And the light sound colour comes from a bit too high larynx and a bit too low soft palate. I also had a case of allergies so that I have to be very careful to keep my soft palate high and only drop it if I'd want to put in distortion (and then twang even more at the same time). Raising the soft palate reduces nasality.

I think that Steve Perry may have sung the song originally somewhere between curbing and neutral, but then on the following album (which contains Seperate ways, f.ex.) and on his solo album (which has "Oh Sherry", another full voice extravaganza), I think he's using curbing more and even some overdrive, with both twang and a slightly lower larynx. And I thought of VIDEOHERE (Bob) yesterday and today a lot, i.e. what he was saying that he found using a yawn so helpful. I guess I have been doing too much AC/DC and Bon Jovi and GNR recently so that I'm used to having my larynx a bit higher than what my "dream voice" should be using. You live and learn.

Analog, those high words on "night" and "people" were sung with the vowel Uh from curbing. On those notes, I guess my larynx was in a fairly low position so I'm happy with how they sounded. They were on a B4.

Ronws, thanks for sticking up for me, but I took devaitis' comments and tried to figure out what he meant, even though he didn't really give an explanation. But if you compare this clip to my Bed of roses by Bon Jovi clip, you can hear that I was probably thinking bit more about having a "full voice" back then. And I also had some rasp, which seems to be liked by SO many people (I'm guilty as charged). I guessing that devaitis thought it was too twangy and nasally. Look out for my next version very soon :) But I think it's normal when people are learning to sing they rock back and forth from being too dopy, to too twangy, to "just right" = "full voice" :) At least that's my dream voice and hopefully I can get closer to it one day.

Cheers!

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devaitis, thanks for being honest, my friend. I really appreciate that you say what you think and don't just bullshit me :) I can't wait to record the song again with a lower larynx and higher palate, because I THINK it will sound better but I MIGHT be wrong and won't know until after I've recorded it. Only then can I say for sure that it reall made a world of difference.

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Wow jonpall that was impressive! I’m amazed at how well you pick up all the nuanced details of the melody line. I’m not a huge Journey follower, so I don’t listen to Perry that much, but from my memories of the song I thought you were spot on. To me it sounded like medium volume curbing (within a high/low range of curbing volume). And I’m not sure which version I would like better this one or a fuller tone, but I can’t wait to hear and decide. Overall I like the tone of this one, but there were a few places it could have been a little darker sounding.

How long did you practice this song to achieve this level?

Awesome job!

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jonpall,

cool. Sounded like you were leaning toward a light overdrive-y UH as described by Dutch Marc on CVT forum. Listen to Steve sing the Ah/UH in Night: starting at 1:41

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSVnt3--Nnk&feature=related

There's no way in hell that is a pure "restrained" sound. My personal belief is that Perry is a f'n MASTER of very light overdrive + curbing in the upper part of his range(if we're using CVT terms.) That's what gives him HIS sound(obviously he uses neutral too on certain soft parts.)

Listen to the difference in Devaitis' clip: starting at 1:38

This guy does a great job of disguising that sound. He's leaning toward neutral(but may still be in curbing, I'm not sure) on the high note. If you compare the two singers, as they end the note, you can really hear the difference in approach(one's "shouty," ones' "heady".)

Apologize if I've gone off topic here. These are subtleties in Perry's voice that I think get glossed over, this idea that he sings lighter than he does. I think an extremely light sound color blurrs what's happening at the laryngeal level(modes) sometimes.

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analog, all of this is so interesting :) You see, I think when I'm sounding my fullest there (which isn't as often as I want and I dislike the clip more and more each time I listen to it), I think I may be in curbing and leaning towards overdrive sometimes. However, on those high B4s in "niiiight", f.ex., I've spoken to my friend who's-name-we-do-not-speak-of (his name rhymes with Cartin Maych) and he thinks that I may even be using MLN there, but it's slightly hard to tell on the recording. It would be easier if he were there and it's easiest for me to tell WHEN I'm doing it because only I can feel it in my throat.

Then, I think that that karaoke singer is actually singing MORE "meaty" (metallic) than Steve Perry in that clip, although I've heard Steve Perry sing with exactly that tone. I don't think the karaoke singer is disguising the sound at all. So I think the opposite of you on this. :)

And today is one of those days where CVT is slightly confusing to me and I'm liking Vendera's simpler approach of simply inhaling on a yawn, focusing the sound in the soft palate and, boom, a full voice :) No worrying or analyzing which mode or effect it was. Just a full voice and the effects are created out of the emotions in the singer. But of course, that only gives an easy, but good, description of singing with power and the CVT book explains so much more than that. Still, I always like simplifications :)

I can't wait to re-record. Maybe it will suck, but I'm shooting for a tone very similar to Devaitis' clip. I SHALL succeed, damnit ;)

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wow...that blows my mind :) It's absolutely fascinating how we all perceive this shit differently. In my crazy little world there's no debate at all...Steve is more "yell-y" than this other dude. Especially focus on how they finish their note. To me it sounds like Karaoke guy has almost completely "flipped" his TA/CT ratio when hitting that note(sounds like mix of O/OO to me.)

Also...the Steve clip is WAY softer(old uploaded clip) than the recent one, giving the "karaoke dude" a lot more punch/bite to his sound.

I can't believe the "name we do not speak" thought those notes of yours were in MLN...holy shit. I couldn't imagine it being further from neutral. Oh well...I've given up trying analyze this stuff. I DO think you can sing this better. Looking forward to it.

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I lowered the volume of both clips and I'm mostly talking about the performance in general, not just those high long notes. F.ex. compare the first line in the song for both singers. The karaoke guy sounds more powerful to me, but that's just me :) Maybe curbing can sometimes sound more powerful than overdrive because of the amount of compression going on in the vocal folds, especially since there's no way of telling how loud these 2 guys are without having them in the same room? :)

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karaoke guy sounds more powerful to me

I would say thats truth.

Maybe curbing can sometimes sound more powerful

If more powerful doesnt mean louder that would be truth.

You remember my clip of "dont stop...." My larynx was in low position and there wasn't much twang. In your there was higher larynx position and a lot of twang.

Maybe interesting sound exists between?

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hey folks, i usually avoid this section, but i stopped over for the hell of it.

folks, let's get something clear here, that is a very challenging song and i thought jonpall did a fine job on it. and believe me he will polish this up and stun everyone here.

i agree with ron, devaitis there's ways to "sugarcoat" your comments a little more?

i've got to head back here, just to hear devaitis' competitive cover.

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devaitis there's ways to "sugarcoat" your comments a little more?

Why?

Jonpall understood what i meant. I said what I wanted to say. The case is over.

This part of forum is named "Review & Critique My Singing". I did my job. Jonpall helps me - I help Jonpall.

If you (Bob or Ron) will post in this section i wont say anything. I promise.

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Since you welcome bad and good comments alike, I'll be the mean guy.

This was retardedly enjoyable. You've got a disgustingly great sense of rythm and terrifyingly cool tone. If I weren't so tired, I'd be jumping all over my room screaming out loud " Doooon't stop beeliiiiiiiveiiing !", and my neighbours would curse you and send you pizzas. That's how bad you are !

It wasn't perfect, but it doesn't need to be. And really, it seems really difficult.

Sorry if that came out a little harsh to you. ;)

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Why?

Jonpall understood what i meant. I said what I wanted to say. The case is over.

This part of forum is named "Review & Critique My Singing". I did my job. Jonpall helps me - I help Jonpall.

If you (Bob or Ron) will post in this section i wont say anything. I promise.

i'm not qualified to critique.

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I think it's really a matter of personal taste. I like just a little more twang overall. But to be honest, it really depends on the phrase you're singing. Excellent job. I also tend to believe there's something about the way it's mixed that takes away from the vocals' brightness.

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People, which singer (in analog's last clip) do you think sounds "beefier"?

I'm saying the Karaoke guy (although Steve apparantly ate more beef before recording the Frontiers album).

jonpall - I've been listening intensly to Steve's original recording and I'm convinced he is singing in MLN and not curbing or overdrive. If you really listen to his vowels he is using pure vowels all over the place and you can't do that with either curbing or overdrive in that range. Also, he'll slip into very light singing very quickly with no obvious transition which would suggest he's already in MLN or Neutral. But, I too get really confused sometimes trying to analyze it. It would seem that CVT would have an excellent perspective in which to analyze - but sometimes I just don't know.

The Karaoke guy is singing more like you and like how I am doing this - with curbing and overdrive. He is definitely more beefy than Steve. I do prefer this meatier type of tone. I love Steve Perry's voice, but his tone is not something I am trying (or have ever desired) to acheive. So I'm not going to try to practice it this way. If you listen to Steve Augeri he HAS acheived Perry's technique. Of course it is probably a prequisite for singing with Journey!

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I knew my words would get taken wrong. It's okay to not like jonpall's version because he didn't sound like Michael Bolton while singing it. Its' okay not to like it because it's not your style of music. When someone sings a style I don't particularly like, I don't feel the need to register my disapproval. But that's just me.

I know some think I give way too much support, that I don't get critical enough. Well, I know a little something about psychology. It's called operant conditioning. Creatures avoid punishment and seek reward. You get much more out of a creature if you reward what is good. It is a proven fact with decades of research behind it.

I can only imagine how truly tough it is to try and converse in a confusing language like English. It's tough, even for people that were born speaking English. But, at the same time, I get so tired of the comparisons. Well, you didn't sound like (this or that person, whomever). Big flipping doo dah, as far as I am concerned. Did the singer hit the note? Yes. Did he convey the emotion? Yes. Did he sing the song as if he wrote it? Yes. Did he do it with his own voice and inflection? Yes. Job well done.

But I will grant you that sometimes a singer tackles a song not really made for their voice, regardless of range. It's happened to me, I know. I wasn't meaning to offend you devaitis, just challenging you to define your statements. As I surmise, jonpall responds better or more comfortably to precise statements. How can he know what "different path" to go if someone can't describe it? So, we have a language barrier.

And yes, a lot of people don't "get me." I say what I think or know and then I am done with it. I have no shame. And that is part of the reason why I am on the Highway to Hell (whole different topic at another time.)

Anyway, on the topic of shouty or not, do you guys think this is shouty? It didn't feel shouty to me. Actually, it felt light, but certainly not as raspy as the original.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8750209/Don%27t%20Stop%20-%20sample.mp3

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Guitartrek,

not to beat my point to death here, but here's a MUCH better video(this concert series on youtube has been banned/blocked to a lot of user outside US...so I was trying to find an obscure video in the earlier clip.)

I don't see any way imaginable that his high "power" notes are Neutral(specifically "The Night" part at 1:50.) Don't forget, some singers are better able to direct/modify certain "mode" vowels towards "non-mode" vowels. And of course...the many "grey zones" between modes :)

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