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question about four pillars vs singing success.

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rich2k4
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one major thing i noticed between both programs, is that rob's program get students started off right away with using a full voice, where as singing success advocates light vocalizing, and not adding too much pressure. I also noticed another vocal coach, Eric Arceneaux, say the same thing, which you can see in this video:

the question i have is. if you practice in this light way, while it may be good for that r&b and pop sound, i'm wondering if practicing this way will eventually allow you to easily add more pressure for higher intensity stuff? for example,

if you were practicing being light, with no tension, wouldn't something like Oh Darling go against your practicing? You need to add more pressure to it otherwise it will all be head voice, and not the sound you want.

basically will the singing success/eric arcenuex light vocalizing approach eventually lead you to easily add more pressure, or are they lacking in this area?

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let me just make a small correction if i may....to sing heavier or gutsier or meatier, it's not about more "pressure"...it's more a function of more support and engaging more vocal fold mass coupled with more resonance.

i.m.o. it's not the method ss, tvs, cvt, etc., it's the exercises you do to address it and the regularity and consistency you apply to it. as an analogy, for working out you have free weights, cables, universal machines, and dumbells...all of them will build muscle.

don't assign your success to one particular program.

hope i've helped.

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I am not really that familiar with SS. However if what you want is a heavier voice, you've got to practice it. If you want to sing lightly you need to practice that also. Singing is not like golf, for example, where you start with slow easy swings and as you get better you get more powerful. Singing lightly or heavy requires singing in different modes or configurations. Singing lightly will not lead to powerful singing.

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eric kind of shows what i'm talking about here starting at 5:45

where he uses the pure headvoice for the high notes, and says that you should do melodies with a lip roll to help you determine placement. if you do that on all songs, then you will be singing every song's high notes with a pure head voice tone. i dont know if this only applies to r&b and pop stuff.

doesn't sound like paul mccartney is using pure head voice on the high section of Oh Darling, it sounds like he's just screaming it.

i'm starting to even confuse myself lol

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It's cool to warm up your voice for a few minutes with a light sound and lip rolls, especially in the mornings. But I agree with guitartrek here. As a beginner, you can start to work on heavier sounds right away, if you have the right instructor or instructional material. But I'd master singing clean before experimenting with rasp. Which instructionals do you have? Do you have a vocal coach? If you're mostly using SLS, note that they advocate light to medium vocal sound for singing. So for many rock songs, if you sing with pure SLS, you may feel that there is always something missing in terms of power. What type of sound are you looking for?

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Here is my take on Paul McCartney; He uses a lot of curbing in his singing with a lot of darker sound colors. A majority of his curbing is done with a light registration but he uses resonance very efficiently to get loud and powerful sounds.

In “O’Darlin”, my guess is most of his distortions are creaking, where he is blasting through Curbing towards Overdrive, getting in between them. I had read a book on him years ago and I recall him saying that he would go into the studio and really push his voice to get ready for that sound. It sounded like it was very tough on his voice and he took a beating for it. John Lennon really wanted to do this song, but evidently McCartney wrote it and he wanted it. Changing the subject somewhat, but I also read Lennon used to shred his voice doing “Twist and Shout”. It was hard for him to do regular shows with that song in it.

I’m also a SS background singer and will say I finally moved on because they do not emphasis or try to teach any breathing techniques. They make the assumption that if you do all the other stuff right, breathing comes natural. I disagree. Some people may, but I think they are in the minority. Most complaints, like me, come from people who are frustrated with all the pressure build up in the throat. IMO, learning breath management is one of the major pillars to singing. You can improve on it every year. If you at least have some understanding of it and know some of the basics, you can continue to refine it probably forever.

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Quincy - the lack of breathing techniques was really surprising to me. I've been working on very steady breath support in the past 9 months and it has improved my singing significantly.

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Here is my take on Paul McCartney; He uses a lot of curbing in his singing with a lot of darker sound colors. A majority of his curbing is done with a light registration but he uses resonance very efficiently to get loud and powerful sounds.

In “O’Darlin”, my guess is most of his distortions are creaking, where he is blasting through Curbing towards Overdrive, getting in between them. I had read a book on him years ago and I recall him saying that he would go into the studio and really push his voice to get ready for that sound. It sounded like it was very tough on his voice and he took a beating for it. John Lennon really wanted to do this song, but evidently McCartney wrote it and he wanted it. Changing the subject somewhat, but I also read Lennon used to shred his voice doing “Twist and Shout”. It was hard for him to do regular shows with that song in it.

I think you're right in your analysis of Paul.

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I agree with VIDEOHERE about the power coming from support, resonance, etc.

Whether light or heavy is the type of singing you do, support needs to come from deep inside the lower abdominal muscles in addition to the natural use of the diaphragm muscles.

Maybe you all know this already, so I'll ask a question here: do you mainly use your diaphragm muscle or your lower abs for vocal support?

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Lower abs. Diaphragm is an inhalation muscle and for any one who thinks they can control the diaphragm, go ahead and do that, right now, even though I can't see you. So, what did you do? Squeeze your intercostals? And what happened? Your breath stopped and you became rigid. But you did not control the diaphragm. The only thing you can do is balance against its force of exhalation when it relaxes. Either by holding your breath or by controlling exhalation with your stomach muscles, which are trainable and under your conscious control.

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I used SS materials at home for a long time, and now that I have been practising breathing techniques taken from other sources, I have found that this SS idea of starting small and getting stronger actually works better. Now I realise that, whether you start light or strong, if you don't have good control of the breathing muscles then you'll tense up anyway and it won't work.

It's ironic that this idea of "mix" doesn't work without good breath control (IMO), and they don't seem to teach it at all. In that respect, Eric Arceneaux definitely has a step up because in his programs he makes a very big point of talking about exercising the breathing muscles and learning to control the exhale.

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Mr Bounce, my thoughts exactly! Though I'm not too familiar with Eric Arceneaux but I believe Roger Love teaches kind of SS stuff, but WITH breath control. And also in SS videos there is some occasional talk of breath and support, but very little though. I find it funny too, I just don't understand why they won't teach breath support as most of the worlds singers and teachers would consider it the cornerstone of good singing. Maybe they just want to be different.. :D

But combine SS and breath support and you already have some great stuff.

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Opaa, that is how I feel also. I wasn't intending to diss SS,but they could make a major leap to a whole new level if they would give breath management its proper place in attention. I still use different scales and exercises from their material.

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Yes Opaa, I just got Roger Love's book and it has a lot of good stuff!

It is so weird how SS doesn't talk about breathing... Maybe you're right; it is their "thing" now, so they can't just do a 180 and say that breathing must be taught :P

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Yes Opaa, I just got Roger Love's book and it has a lot of good stuff!

It is so weird how SS doesn't talk about breathing... Maybe you're right; it is their "thing" now, so they can't just do a 180 and say that breathing must be taught :P

here's a recent video where it's pretty obvious, if your a marketing type you'll know, he trying to rebuild his product imagery and re-promote ss.

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