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Curbing or MLN

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Mertd
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Hey Guys,

i'd like to know if im doing curbing (mixed voice) or metal like neutral in these clips.

first i have a sirens and second i have a scale. Note: its an example and its very pitchy and doens;t sound good, its the first time it reached these hights without going in falsetto

slide: http://www.box.net/shared/bslb2t06yg ( the last yeah i did in falsetto to hear the difference)

scales: http://www.box.net/shared/kpvxoe4of2 (when i sing up to b4 i think im in curbing i dont know if c5 is curbing or mln, it feels a bit easier and sounds a bit different)

I dont know how to sing in these hights (above g4) in songs i find it rather difficult to do.

does anyone know some excersises to train curbing (mixed) for use in songs?

thanks you,

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It sounds like you use overdrive on the low notes and gradually switch to curbing on the high ones. If there exists a "right" way of singing, this could be it. Therefore, even though you sound like you haven't QUITE mastered how to do this yet, you're on the right track and should continue doing what you're doing, at least until you can do this well and without straining. Then you might want to explore other singing techniques along with what you're doing here and also try to incorporate all of this into singing songs. I don't think it should take you more than a few months, give or take, to learn how to bridge between your chest and head voices. Good job, man!

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Thank you for your respons, nice to know im on the right track :)

i will continue do what im doing :D

i just have one more question,

in this clip: http://www.box.net/shared/htcgt8ao0b

the sounds that i make are they in curbing or metal like neutral?

thank you very much,

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scales: http://www.box.net/shared/kpvxoe4of2 (when i sing up to b4 i think im in curbing i dont know if c5 is curbing or mln, it feels a bit easier and sounds a bit different)

Mertd,

I believe you are somewhere between overdrive and edge until A, when you fall back into curbing at the top note. Notice that the volume decreases and the sound character becomes less direct.

Then at C, you switch to MLN. You'll notice the same thing here: your volume drops, and the character is softer.

Your voice seems to be picking the modes for you. If you want to pick the modes deliberately, you need to center the mode more by picking the right vowels, right volume etc. For the lower notes, you are far too loud for curbing, and the vowel is close to OE as in herb. Lower your volume by a few notches, and modify your vowel to UH.

When you get to the high C, your volume is now too quiet for curbing. Increase volume, and again, check your vowel. If you're having trouble staying in curbing, check your sound colour, make sure you have lightened it as far as possible. Don't worry if it sounds ugly, you just want to make sure your mode is secured first. Later, you can come back and darken the sound colour.

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Thank you for your respons, nice to know im on the right track :)

i will continue do what im doing :D

i just have one more question,

in this clip: http://www.box.net/shared/htcgt8ao0b

the sounds that i make are they in curbing or metal like neutral?

thank you very much,

That was almost all curbing. Good job. But note that in a couple of spots you sang the word "she" with the Eh vowel (as in "stay" or "egg"). And there your voice was a bit shakey. It's simply because the Eh vowel works poorly in curbing. Before you did this, you sang "she" with an I vowel (as in "sit") and that worked and sounded much better. So if you're gonna use curbing, be mindful of your vowels and use mostly I, O and Uh.

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That can be JUST the right thing to do. Many vocal coaches advocate this. I think it's a very valid method. If it doesn't work for you, try something else.

JP,

I disagree with you, but that's another topic. When you are trying to do a curbing scale, it makes sense to stay in curbing for the entire scale, no? :)

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Thank you guys really :D

this is a great forum :P and you are great people :)

im doubting if i want to expand my curbing to c5/d5 or switch at b4/c5 to mln, i can try to work on the merging between curbing and mln?.

would it be better to sing curbing that high (above b4) or go into mln. i dont mind the little drop in volume.

my mln does have a bit of a curbing sound in it i think. its still a bit restrained just a little bit easier. is there something like curbing like neutral? :P

could some post for example a d5 or c5 in curbing and one in mln. cause i have the book and the sound library but i cant really find a clear example.

thank you,

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JP,

I disagree with you, but that's another topic. When you are trying to do a curbing scale, it makes sense to stay in curbing for the entire scale, no? :)

If you're doing a "curbing scale", yes, it makes sense to stay in curbing. But for singing in general, it might not be the best idea to try to stay in curbing just for the sake of it. You just want to sound good, right? And that method of using overdrive on low notes, curbing on middle notes and neutral for high notes (using CVT terms this time), is actually one of the most common ways of teaching singing and singing. So it also makes sense to practise this type of switching between the modes. There are many ways to do so, btw.

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What is the MLN? Very good and hard question.

If I sing like that: http://www.box.net/shared/8zq7bsyce4

60% say it is MLN, 40% say that one is Curbing. Whats the secret? I don't know! And i think its weak point of CVT.

In my opinion:

If it sounds good, it IS good. - Duke Ellington is good point!

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devaitis, I'd say that your clip is curbing. This particular clip of yours has lots of twang on top of the curbing mode. In fact, so much that a slight rasp seems to happen, but it's a bit hard to hear the details when the vocal track is being drowned with reverb :) . I suggest you reduce the reverb slightly, at least for future recordings.

MLN stands for metal-like-neutral in CVT terms. It's a variation of the "neutral" vocal mode, just with lots of twang added. Neutral, in itself, is just very soft singing with very little twang, kind of like a lullaby and can be used throughout your range, always with extremely low volume. But if you add lots of twang to neutral, the mode becomes MLN and the volume increases a bit - and becomes exponentially louder as you go up in pitch. In fact, as you start to approach the male high C and higher for men, MLN can become extremely loud. This is a good example of how twang can be a good thing.

I think MLN is what Robert Lunte teaches for notes above the passagio. It's essentially just head voice with lots of twang. Of course it's not as easy at it might seem. You can use either a dark or a light sound colour with it. But there is no cry/hold/moan in MLN. I believe that Robert uses the term "cry" for something else than both CVT and SLS do. His cry is more similar to fry and he actually calls it "cry/fry". But to be fair, I don't have his product so there might be more similarities than I have thought.

CVT, The 4 pillars, Tamplin's program and all vocal programs have their weak points. They also have their strong points. I've studied many vocal programs and have learned something from them all. I agree with Robert that we should respect the effort the authors of these programs have put into their products and try to see the good things in them and not just some details we don't agree 100% with.

F.ex. it works better for me to use an ever so slightly different approach to breath support than is described in "Raise your voice" by Jamie Vendera. But there are so many other great things in that book that I still consider it a great read and something that has been really helpful to me. All the details can never please anyone, anyway.

I agree with Duke Ellington here, btw.

Cheers.

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Ha, Jonpall. Lets fight ahead!

MLN = Neutral + Twang :) Ok

When I sing without Twang. What is then ? Curbing like neutral :)

Lets see some kind of dopy sound with low larynx: http://www.box.net/shared/bvhmf47hvs Natural room rewerb inside, LO-FI mic.

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For people who consider CVT to be a curse word, I apologize. But hey, the man is asking, so...

The vocal mode "neutral" is the only vocal mode which has an evil twin brother called "like-neutral something" :) . You can add or subtract twang to all 4 vocal modes, but only neutral takes on a different name if lots of twang is added (MLN). You seem to sing mostly in curbing. So when you sing with little twang, it's called curbing and when you sing with lots of twang you also just sing in curbing. If you want to get really analytical about this, some would say that you, devaitis, are using lots of twang, you sing in twangy curbing or curbing with lots of twang.

In your last clip, devaitis, all words were in curbing, IMO, except the very first word, which was in overdrive. I hear lots of talent in that clip. Very nice, man! You're main concern now, should be diction, IMO, i.e. trying to get each vowel and consonant as clear as possible.

Listen back to that recording and check if you yourself understand the lyrics clearly. Here's what it sounds to me: "A fool myself into the si". I'm guessing that the real lyrics are "I fool myself into the sea". I could be wrong, of course. But the "A" could have been a bit more like "I", the "si" could have had a bit more "ee" in it so it would have sounded more like "sea" and finally, in the word "into", the "n" consonant almost can't be heard.

Let's now look on the positive side: Your pitch accuracy is very, very good. You have a good vibrato, a pretty resonant, powerful voice, and sing with emotion. You're very well connected from chest to head and seem to have good range. Basically, you're a good singer. You just need to fine tune a few, easy things and then you'll be scary good, man. Have a nice one!

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...Don't remember to sing in chest voice sometimes, too. It would be cool to hear you sing there, i.e. to hear you do a few lower pitched phrases. Very many songs have the verses in chest voice (overdrive) and then the chorus in mixed voice/curbing/head voice with twang.

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But for singing in general, it might not be the best idea to try to stay in curbing just for the sake of it.

I don't know where you read that in my post. I certainly didn't say "stay in curbing just for the sake of it." But anyway, I'll digress, as I need to address your next post before any confusion occurs.

...Don't remember to sing in chest voice sometimes, too. It would be cool to hear you sing there, i.e. to hear you do a few lower pitched phrases. Very many songs have the verses in chest voice (overdrive) and then the chorus in mixed voice/curbing/head voice with twang.

Modes DO NOT equal registers. It's very frustrating when people fail to see this distinction. Chest voice is a part of the voice, you can sing any mode there. You might generally use overdrive for lower notes, and it is common on lower notes, but that DOES NOT mean all singers use it, and most singers will switch modes frequently and/or sing between modes in this lower part of the voice because there is a lot of resonance, a lot of comfortable acoustic spots between modes.

Mixed voice/curbing? Once again, one is a register, and one is a mode! You can use curbing anywhere in your range! It IS NOT commonly used in the middle part of your voice, in fact most new singers don't use curbing AT ALL! So your comment has potential to confuse a lot of people. And lumping head voice into the same category, which is 1) a register and 2) a completely different register to mixed voice, is just going to cause more confusion!

I know you're trying to help, but there's a reason the CVT book rarely uses terms like "head voice." Because these terms can mean completely different things depending on who you ask! Tell several different people to "sing in head voice" and you will most likely get different modes from each singer! It's much easier to stay "Right, sing in curbing, here is a sound example of curbing, here is what curbing sounds like."

That's why this thread exists. If Mertd asked "Am I singing in head voice?" the answer would be a resounding YES. But since he's asking "Am I singing in curbing?" we can give him a more specific reply, and help him find the sound he is after, which is far more productive than a reply like "No you're not in head voice, you need to feel it, think very light, try to imagine the sound coming from your head" etc. etc. So with that in mind, can we please discuss CURBING rather than head voice?

BTW - MLN also has a slight hold, so it sounds slightly plaintive and more twanged than regular neutral, that's why it's considered a different mode.

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Spectrum, I'm much more familiar with CVT than you obviously think I am. I understand fully what you're saying and your statements are correct but the reason I kind of lumped these terms together THIS one time is because I've grown tired of explaining all these terms in every post I make here. Some people have even asked me to stop using CVT terms so often. I'm tired of trying to be 100% accurate all the time. You can't please everyone.

I don't know where you read that in my post. I certainly didn't say "stay in curbing just for the sake of it."

I didn't say that you said it.

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Oh... well I understand where you're coming from, the CVT modes can cause similar confusion when talking to someone who isn't well-versed in CVT. But I don't think that's a concern in this thread (sigh of relief).

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