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i like to begin a discussion on vowel modification and shading as it relates to specifically finding the sweet spot. i am finding more and more that finding that "holy grail" that sweet spot is so much a matter of tweaking and adjusting but it must be done so open-mindedly so that you don't get sidetracked by another singer and their adjustment(s)....their vowel shades, etc.

let me explain...as i was learning "gethsemame" i watched in particular steve balsamo's version of the song. when steve went for the g5 in "die" i saw how much his mouth opened for the note and how he leaned back to hit it spot on.

so i assumed i'd also needed to open up the mouth (held off on leaning back) to help get that note, but what i finally found instead was i needed to actually close the mouth down more while staying open in the back and adjust my head down slighty and bring my jaw slightly back and down (a new thing i tried) till i heard and felt more ease and ring. somehow this configuration also gave me more "connection" to my support which really amplified things.

so here for my particular physiological or anatomical makeup i needed to tweak and learn what i needed to make that note "ring" and maximize resonance, again, per my particular voice.

and it was so different from what steve needed or perhaps what lou gramm needs to do when he sings.

some i know would argue on horizontal jaw adjustments or lowering of the head but they were adjustments that helped me.

do you folks ever experiment like this? do you feel that things like this could help you or hinder you?

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Hi,

"let me explain...as i was learning "gethsemame" i watched in particular steve balsamo's version of the song. when steve went for the g5 in "die" i saw how much his mouth opened for the note and how he leaned back to hit it spot on"

Firstly - I love the version you mention (amonst the many I know) - I ... love ... Steve's Tone.

The G5 on "I" in Steve's vocal is a relatively standard inch(ish) opening top teeth bared G5. 3:57 shows the mouth opening. he's not leaning though. there is a lean back at 4:06 but more for effect. However note the timing change to 5/8 ... bar 82 (Vocal note - A little slower and bar 84 - Hold as long as possible). ... unless you are talking 2:59 (bar 64 ... because he ad libs here at 3.04 with an "oh" which isn't on bar 64 of score - but seems to be standard addition).

If you look at the original on youtube - 2:28 (not a great mouth shot - but standard size) on the C, 2:34 from the Die to Oh. and again at 3:23 .. again standard size for note.

If you look at carters version 3:26 - he has good inch and half to "wider" 2 inch opening (but Carters tongue shows excellent technique - and is one "tongue" technique I point people at)

You also notice Wilkinson hit the C at 3:17 (as per score) and G at 4:24 - standard mouth opening.

Neeley - 2006 - 3:04 - again standard opening on the C and G at 3:13.

There isn't a huge 'ring' in the Die ... due to the I being an ie on die, it isn't meant to ring as per "i" in "ding" ... (let's possibly have a conversation on this one - Steven ... one for you and the overtones), can you "graph"

You say;

"but what i finally found instead was i needed to actually close the mouth down more while staying open in the back and adjust my head down slighty and bring my jaw slightly back and down (a new thing i tried) till i heard and felt more ease and ring. somehow this configuration also gave me more "connection" to my support which really amplified things"

Can you post vid (mouth / tongue vid) on this as it'll be interesting to see your technique. I think quite a few people are looking forward to this.

vocal from you.

stew

p.s. Robert - you've covered this - can you post your experience.

The reason for posting is that if you can hit the pitch and intensity as you do (away from a standard model), then it's worthy of study (just as Lamberts tongue is)

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so i assumed i'd also needed to open up the mouth (held off on leaning back) to help get that note, but what i finally found instead was i needed to actually close the mouth down more while staying open in the back and adjust my head down slighty and bring my jaw slightly back and down (a new thing i tried) till i heard and felt more ease and ring. somehow this configuration also gave me more "connection" to my support which really amplified things.

so here for my particular physiological or anatomical makeup i needed to tweak and learn what i needed to make that note "ring" and maximize resonance, again, per my particular voice.

and it was so different from what steve needed or perhaps what lou gramm needs to do when he sings.

some i know would argue on horizontal jaw adjustments or lowering of the head but they were adjustments that helped me.

do you folks ever experiment like this? do you feel that things like this could help you or hinder you?

Excellent observations.

And, yes, I experiment all the time. And in some of the ways you describe.

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Hi,

"let me explain...as i was learning "gethsemame" i watched in particular steve balsamo's version of the song. when steve went for the g5 in "die" i saw how much his mouth opened for the note and how he leaned back to hit it spot on"

Firstly - I love the version you mention (amonst the many I know) - I ... love ... Steve's Tone.

The G5 on "I" in Steve's vocal is a relatively standard inch(ish) opening top teeth bared G5. 3:57 shows the mouth opening. he's not leaning though. there is a lean back at 4:06 but more for effect. However note the timing change to 5/8 ... bar 82 (Vocal note - A little slower and bar 84 - Hold as long as possible). ... unless you are talking 2:59 (bar 64 ... because he ad libs here at 3.04 with an "oh" which isn't on bar 64 of score - but seems to be standard addition).

If you look at the original on youtube - 2:28 (not a great mouth shot - but standard size) on the C, 2:34 from the Die to Oh. and again at 3:23 .. again standard size for note.

If you look at carters version 3:26 - he has good inch and half to "wider" 2 inch opening (but Carters tongue shows excellent technique - and is one "tongue" technique I point people at)

You also notice Wilkinson hit the C at 3:17 (as per score) and G at 4:24 - standard mouth opening.

Neeley - 2006 - 3:04 - again standard opening on the C and G at 3:13.

There isn't a huge 'ring' in the Die ... due to the I being an ie on die, it isn't meant to ring as per "i" in "ding" ... (let's possibly have a conversation on this one - Steven ... one for you and the overtones), can you "graph"

You say;

"but what i finally found instead was i needed to actually close the mouth down more while staying open in the back and adjust my head down slighty and bring my jaw slightly back and down (a new thing i tried) till i heard and felt more ease and ring. somehow this configuration also gave me more "connection" to my support which really amplified things"

Can you post vid (mouth / tongue vid) on this as it'll be interesting to see your technique. I think quite a few people are looking forward to this.

vocal from you.

stew

p.s. Robert - you've covered this - can you post your experience.

The reason for posting is that if you can hit the pitch and intensity as you do (away from a standard model), then it's worthy of study (just as Lamberts tongue is)

stew, i sang it for the first time this past thursday...in spite of phlegm issue and raspsiness...actually, i'm not quite sure what i did that night...i winged it the best i could........although the judges gave me 3, 10's.....i knew i could have done it better. it was for a contest and this past thursday was "broadway night."....this is a first for me. i will post this once i get it.

i don't think i would call it a technique per se, just an adjustment of sorts that suited me.

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Yes Bob - I'm working on a song now that I'm experimenting with different jaw placements on certain high notes.

Sounds like you did a great job Thursday! That take some guts. Way to go.

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I'm looking forward to hearing the clip, too Bob.

So it seems you all explore slightly different placement to get the best resonance for a particular note on a particular vowel.

And then how do you recognise when you hit it?

And what sort of things do you all do for particular vowels - just as ideas for me to experiment with.

sh

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I'm looking forward to hearing the clip, too Bob.

sh

And you will grow gray hair waiting for that to happen.

Bob, my turn to "out" you, like did me, in another thread. Your going to have to accept the fact that you can sing and sing well. Live with it, deal with it, sorry about your luck.

(honestly, I have tried to keep my mouth shut and I am successful, at times. Other times, not so much.)

3 - 10's? OMG! Jesus, Bob, unless you want to continue granting power and credence to the negative forces in your past, let me offer my mantra. STFU and sing.

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I'm looking forward to hearing the clip, too Bob.

So it seems you all explore slightly different placement to get the best resonance for a particular note on a particular vowel.

And then how do you recognise when you hit it?

And what sort of things do you all do for particular vowels - just as ideas for me to experiment with.

sh

oh, you'll know it.

the best way i can describe it, your sound "releases" and the sound either has a ring or a pinging sound or tone. you'll sense a freeness or you'll sense the pitch is spot on without question...because your breath stream has hit (laymen's explanation) the pocket of best resonance.

any one else want to add to this?

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Yes - agree -you'll know it. You'll hear the overtones / formants and it does ring when hit correctly.

For a female - hit an "ee" (or "iii" - sorry best way to explain it - will spend time ipa'ing it) on F5, (poss "ee" on D5), for a lesser response "or" on D5 and if the voice has experience "ah" on D5. ... but don't belt!!

For example of a song, Sing V1 of Stille Nacht (in German). Bar 5 ( Al- ), will ring if you "OR modify to AH ... l". Bar 11 (Himm) sang either on "ee" or "iii" on the F5. Possibly Ruh! will ring on the E5.

"ee" on F5 usually rings. Fyi - if "ee" doesn't ring - we listen for air escaping (especially in younger singers - pre Menarche).

Stew

If you want to hear this in full beauty listen to;

especially Elin's vocal at say 1:42 and throughout.
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I was given a copy of Dave Pollard’s Finding the Sweet Spot by a friend and read it on the plane home last week. I’ve been watching Dave develop the model for natural enterprises for quite some time and even helped to coin the term, so I’m definitely a fan of the “natural entrepreneur’s guide to responsible, sustainable, joyful work”. Natural Entrepreneurship is based on a six step model that is easy to understand, but will take some work to implement, but then anything worthwhile requires effort:

1. Find the sweet spot: Identify your Gift, passion, and purpose

2. Find the right partners

3. Research unmet needs

4. Imagine and innovate solutions

5. Continuously improvise

6. Act responsibly on principle

Implementing these steps does not require an initial outlay of capital and natural entrepreneurs can get started even while they hold down a job. Each step is covered in detail, with practical advice and some anecdotes. A key aspect of natural entrepreneurship is that it is not premised on the unsustainable notion of perpetual growth.

pherazone:P

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