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srs7593

Dio sang in his head?

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I used to think he was overdriving up to high C all the time because of how powerful it sounded and because of the way the rasp sounded

but when he dips down to E4 his resonance changes and he may actually get louder. I'd like to hear what all y'alls 2 cents is on this. Chest or head? Either way it's equally impressive.

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He gets that sound by twanging a LOT, bridging late and adding rasp on top of it (probably a mixture of his false and true folds causing the rasp). I wouldn't call it head voice, but some would. In CVT terms, I'd guess he's using the edge vocal mode a lot. And overdrive.

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I'd like to add that even though I'm not sure I'd call that a head voice (or even use the term, period), for very many people, those higher notes have a sensation of being produced higher than low ones, independent of volume and power. So the imagery of imaging high notes coming out of your head can be extremely helpful. And I'm totally fine with anyone calling all high notes "head voice", if they want to. But Ronnie used the methods I described above to put some serious "meat" on those high notes of his.

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I use the terms head and chest the same way as Ronws now. If it's not CVT overdrive it's head. Twang is just a form of support I think.

Also I wonder how loud Dio is actually singing. The mics always close to him.

I'm starting to think that most raspy singers use false cords because of how easy it is. It is comfortable and facilitates crossing in the same way lip bubbles do. If you shape the note right it sounds a lot like overdriven screaming. And the higher you place it the more it seems to sound like true cords. I find that I can get a firmer grip with a higher placement. True cord rasp takes a plethora of support which is hard to achieve when moving quickly between notes especially outside overdrive. It takes either a naturally high or built up chest voice that can cross at a point that's already high up for head voice or just lots of technical proficiency. I lack both. But for me I think false cord rasp just wants to be there. It takes effort to make it go away.

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What about if you sing with a cry/hold/cord compression/moaning sound below your passagio? Would you call that a head voice? It's not overdrive. An example would be a lot of notes in the first verse of Mariah Carey's "Without your". That's just an example where the chest/head voice can fall apart - if people use it incorrectly. And also, if you sing with extreme low volume below your passagio, it's certainly not overdrive, but it doesn't resonate that much in your head, because the pitches are so low.

But in the end, I understand everything you said and my answer to your original question is in my earlier posts. Also note that I'm just some dude on the internet so take everything that I AND everyone here with a grain of salt.

I think you're correct about the false cord rasp. But note that in the heat of the moment, those singers aren't always using the false folds 100% to produce rasp. Many of them are combining the true and false folds for it, some healthy, others not.

Cheers, man.

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It could also depend on what era of Dio we are talking about. In the studio, he could sing a little higher because the acoustics and volumes are easily controlled. Live, he offered more of a baritone sound to things which allowed him to do rasp. Also, his heaviest rasp is on the lower notes. When he had to sing a high note, he often sang it clean. Was he pushing chest voice up, or bringing headvoice down? I'm not always sure. I do know that he did not sing with a lot of volume. He let the mic do its job. But I will say that tone was his concentration. It wasn't about the highest note but it was about the tone of the note.

I want to say that he was using headvoice technique for I have watched his facial movement and he would lift his soft pallate the way that Lilli Lehmann describes while maintaining that he never took lessons for voice.

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I think that Dio usually sang with a fair amount of volume, both in the studio and live. At least volume that was on the louder side of what a man with his physique could do, without straining or getting breathy. And he sang tons of high notes with rasp. Sorry, I have to disagree with that one.

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folks, i too am just a singer studying and trying to improve. but the more a read, the more i'm starting to realize the falsetto/head voice (think for a moment they are synonymous) can be grown and thickened over time to such an extent that the pharyngeal "appears" and with further development and applied stress the voice is able to meld with the chest via messa di voce. however, my latest thinking is for voice longevity a tenor singer really needs to be out of chest and into head by f4 the latest. by this i mean the chest must mix with the head, but as you ascend you have to let go of chest, get into head, and then get the air stream to the proper resonance pocket.

the trick i think after reading frisell's book, is the head voice really has to be worked on a lot (where you initially likely sound like a female opera queen..that kind of sound is hard to accept, but each time i do it 6-days a week, for about 45 mins. i already hear it starting to thicken and get richer. and you have to carry heads voice down low so that it overlaps the chest notes.

it's all comes down to phonating in head voice, accepting that "sound" for a while and eventually it gets to where you want it to go.

so i'm spending most of my exercising (what i call) "up top" very ct-based, very much driving the tone back behind the palette and up to the pockets of resonance.

i'm avoiding any ta involvement while exercising, and my exercising is in a descending mode from my highest note to my lowest all in "up top" mode.

this is the reason (i think) dio sounds like he does...he's really built up the head voice and his pharyngeal voice where there are resonance and various sound "options."

those who haven't developed the "up top" side of things, lack those options, in my opinion.

so no more singing "bottom up" at least not till i get my head and pharyngeal more developed.

i really think any tenor needs to read his book. it's given me a whole new perspective.

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Bob, this may all be true (or not), but I really think that any singer who has been a bit confused for a while, should see a vocal coach for help. Then he/she can continue on his/her own later if desired. I've done so myself and I'm actually going to a local vocal coach this fall to improve my singing. Otherwise you might just be stuck rocking between different vocal programs forever and never get the results you look for.

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Bob, this may all be true (or not), but I really think that any singer who has been a bit confused for a while, should see a vocal coach for help. Then he/she can continue on his/her own later if desired. I've done so myself and I'm actually going to a local vocal coach this fall to improve my singing. Otherwise you might just be stuck rocking between different vocal programs forever and never get the results you look for.

can't afford them...i'm actually consulting with a few vocal coaches i have befriended offline. i know you're right, but i'm afraid i'm goning to have to wing it for now.

my biggest concern is getting my medical side fixed.

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Doesn't have to be a disagreement. Allow me to be an ass, yet again.

Here's a totally crazy idea. Let's listen to the man, himself. In the studio. Who'd have thought of that? Please, notice how he asks the recording engineer to back off the main volume a few times, and then again, to back off the sharpness of the guitars, so that he doesn't have to shout or sing too loud.

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He's being careful not to sing TOO loud, so he won't hurt his throat, but he's still singing fairly loud :) . What I mean by this is that he's not restraining the volume much, really. He's allowing it to be resonant - and he's also using a fair bit of his vocal fold mass. You could say that it's as loud as it can be without straining the throat. I have it from good sources that you can either wait to train like this for many months or even years, or just dive right into it, with the right coach to guide you. I know that many people will disagree. Hey, Ron isn't the only one who's allowed to rock the boat, is he? ;) But there are many paths to the same or very similar destinations in singing. Cheers.

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I may have worded this poorly. I think that Dio was using chest voice on his notes up to about E4 or so - and in that range, chest voice can actually have medium volume. Or slightly louder than that. There, he was just singing with a very free and resonant sound. The majority of males speak with this sound. Then, as he went higher up in pitch, he started to increase his twang more and more, which really helped to keep the power on the high notes. Dio kept a fairly low larynx so he had a pretty manly growl for such a small man. And he used lots of distortion as well, as long as just singing very, very well in general. So it's probably correct to state that he was singing slightly louder than medium volume for low notes but then increased his volume slightly as he went up in pitch. But in no manner was that light singing.

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Well said, jonpall. I've heard others in interviews say that Dio sang not much louder than his speaking volume. Mainly, just enough volume to be legato. I think this also contributed to his longevity (over 40 years as a pro performer.) I didn't oversing, so to speak.

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What about if you sing with a cry/hold/cord compression/moaning sound below your passagio? Would you call that a head voice? It's not overdrive. An example would be a lot of notes in the first verse of Mariah Carey's "Without your". That's just an example where the chest/head voice can fall apart - if people use it incorrectly. And also, if you sing with extreme low volume below your passagio, it's certainly not overdrive, but it doesn't resonate that much in your head, because the pitches are so low.

But in the end, I understand everything you said and my answer to your original question is in my earlier posts. Also note that I'm just some dude on the internet so take everything that I AND everyone here with a grain of salt.

I think you're correct about the false cord rasp. But note that in the heat of the moment, those singers aren't always using the false folds 100% to produce rasp. Many of them are combining the true and false folds for it, some healthy, others not.

Cheers, man.

To me, above the passaggio=head voice, below it=chest. For me there's no confusion there. You cannot sing in chest voice above the passaggio and you cannot sing in head voice below it. They're adjectives that describe the state of being above or below the passaggio and have less to do with tone or cord closure per se. You could sing in a thick, powerful, even guttural (it's very possible) head voice or a light, thin chest voice.

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Ok. That's what these terms mean to you, and that's fine. But note that they mean other things to other people. Some people equate them only to the sound. And therefore, to them, if you take your vocal weight a bit high up in pitch, you're "pulling chest up". I think Brett Manning is one of those people.

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To me, above the passaggio=head voice, below it=chest. For me there's no confusion there. You cannot sing in chest voice above the passaggio and you cannot sing in head voice below it. They're adjectives that describe the state of being above or below the passaggio and have less to do with tone or cord closure per se. You could sing in a thick, powerful, even guttural (it's very possible) head voice or a light, thin chest voice.

i agree with you, but there's also what i refer to as singing underneath or singing above.

singing underneath = chest... more ta involvement, more fold thickness.

singing above = head..less ta involvement, less fold thickness.

do you relate to this analogy?

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Not to offend anybody but it's pretty clear that Dio does the thing that so many singers get criticized for doing today. He sings with his normal chest voice and doesn't really master the techniques so instead of really singing out loud he gently makes the sounds while singing. With that comes the LOW volume.

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Sorry, Mirador, but you can't sing above the passagio in chest voice without getting very, very loud. Dio had "meat" in his voice but a big part of that was the amount of twang in his voice (combined with a low larynx in his case, to get a "dark sound", which not everyone prefers, actually) and his excellent control over breath support.

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So when Dio sang above the passagio he very often used a strong twang configuration and not really chest voice. But sure enough, that technique sounds very similar to chest voice. That's the whole trick.

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