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mager

Best self study product(dvd/cd/book) for TOTAL beginner?

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Hey, i'm new here.

I started learning to play guitar and decided I also want to improve my vocal abilities. I want the full package :)

I have no aspiring to become a pro singer. All is want is to be able to sing while playing the guitar or singing in karaoke and that me and my surroundings will enjoy.

I have high self awareness and simply saying my problem is that my voice sucks. I know a lot of people say they have a bad vioce but mine really is. This makes singing not fun for me or anyone around me.

I know the best solution is getting a teacher but this is not an option at the moment. So the solution is some self study product.

I also know that there are a lot of great products and that everyone has their preference, so what i'm looking for is the the product that focuses the most on the foundations - both by EXPLAINING the basics and by training(duh).

After googling and searching in relevant forums I got pritty big list of the recommended coachers:

Seth Riggs: http://www.amazon.com/Singing-Stars-Complete-Program-Training/dp/0882845284

Brett Manning: http://www.singingsuccess.com/products

Kevin Richards: http://www.thevoxshop.com/

Roger Love: http://www.rogerlove.com/products/

Ken Tamplin: http://kentamplinvocalacademy.com/

Robert Lunte: http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/

Jaime Vendera: http://venderapublishing.com/the-ultimate-vocal-workout

Anne Peckham: http://www.annepeckham.com/

Per Bristow: http://www.thesingingzone.com/order.html

James Lugo: http://www.jameslugo.com/order.shtml

Cathrine Sadolin(CVT): http://completevocaltechnique.com/?q=en/Shop

?Singorama by Emily Mander

Can anyone with experience with some of these coachers/products point me to what product should I get? A product that will address my needs the most. (I do not restrict myself to the above list. I don't have problem to learn from multiple sources if necessary-as long as the price is reasonable).

If that matters, the music I listen to the most and want to sing is rock(coldplay, arcade fire...), britpop(oasis, smiths...) and folk/folk-rock(elliott smith, bob dylan...) - so nothing fancy like metal or opera :)

Thanks.

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Welcome to the singing world!

'Fancy' is a matter of taste.. the fundamentals for singing remain the same, no matter what genre you're interested in.. I've tried most of the programs mentioned above - and will definitely recommend Robert Lunte, he's a killer coach and makes the process very easy to understand..

other good options are CVT, Ken Tamplin, Jaime Vendera.. I wouldn't go with Brett Manning..

Cheers

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I was in the same situation as you were not too long ago. I didn't buy any home study courses. I looked up Youtube videos and hung out on the forum. That got me started.

The #1 thing that helped was posting clips of myself singing and getting feedback on those clips. Even after one posting I learned that I was leaking air and not using twang. Those two were pretty easy to fix with the help of forum members here. After that I would browse the forum and when I found something that interested me I would research it and figure it out.

I'm still making progress and still haven't purchased a single singing home study system. In fact, before going on this forum I borrowed a singing series... "Sing with Freedom" or something like that. The DVDs did absolutely nothing for me and were annoying to go through. Just saying... Good luck.

:D

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if you really don't plan on doing this professionally, why not just peruse youtube?

as far as programs, they are all good ......you have to simply make the commitment.

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Thanks for the reply's.

The reason I prefer to learn from a program is because i'm methodical person and I like structured learning. Especially if i'm new to a subject.

I would not know where to start and how to progress if i'll use youtube and other free resources. If I plan to commit to something for few months almost every day, I prefer to get good learning material which is structured so I will have the best chance to succeed.

I pretty much narrowed it down to Robert Lunte(TVS) or Ken Tamplin(KTVA). Though Singorama look nice to beginners, Anne Peckham & Jaime Vendera got good reviews(but its only cd/book and I think a video might be usefull for me at my level), another option is Per Bristow(though NCdan just said it is not good).

I know they are all good, but which one focus the most on the FUNDAMENTALS? I don't need the advance material right now, just good explanations and exercises to get me from the bad starting point that i'm at today, to a decent level where I can sing with an acoustic guitar without my voice sounding bad or cracking.

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The reason I prefer to learn from a program is because i'm methodical person and I like structured learning. Especially if i'm new to a subject.

I would not know where to start and how to progress if i'll use youtube and other free resources. If I plan to commit to something for few months almost every day, I prefer to get good learning material which is structured so I will have the best chance to succeed.

Just keep in mind the fact that DVD lessons can't identify things you are doing wrong.

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Mager -

Its as simple as this.. no matter what program you choose, it's always best to take a couple of classes with the coach upfront so he/she can explain the system and exercises to you. If you feel its not worth the money you can always discontinue the lessons.. but most of us who've taken lessons can vouch for this - if only we'd done it earlier, it would've saved a lot of time and effort!! The danger with only sticking to a program is that there's nobody to review HOW you'[re doing the exercises, and that is a big deal. Think long term and decide accordingly... honestly, 2-3 lessons are a great investment to start with.

hope this helps

cheers

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Ken Tamplin, two thumbs up!

i have S.S. & master your mix from brett manning(learned alot of technical stuff but not pactical for me) , Roger burnley(which i like alot), Per Bristow (don't waste your money on him). Ken got me putting the scales to songs fast and thats what its all about!

Happy singing :lol:

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I think a lot of people are NOT choosing Ken because he's probably the most expensive "rock" vocal coach I know of. Of course people should ask themselves if maybe it's just really worth it, but there comes a point when if you go past a certain price that it's just too much. Especially for some countries where the dollar to the local currency ratio is poor. Too bad because I think Ken is one of the better rock coaches. I'm certainly not saying that you should NOT choose Ken. I'm just saying how I feel about this. Then there's always Robert Lunte who is quite easy to access from this forum (after all, he owns it). You can check him out. And there's Tony O'hara (vocalpower) - that's another one to check out. Just go with your gut instinct, guys.

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Here's the thing.

I understand.

Money is tight for many.

Funny thing is, the people I learned from cost me more than double of what I charge and I know for a fact that the information

I have aquired and developed cost me way beyond that.

Robert has good info and this is a great option.

As you may know, and like I have said over and over... the real the proof... is in the singing.

-KT

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These are always difficult posts to respond to for me as you have to walk a very careful line to keep your professional cloak on, while at the same time, my instinct as a voice coach makes me want to just reach out and rescue people.

All the posts that have been placed here are really good and come from experience, either from professionals like Ken and I, or from hard core students of singing like JonPall and videohere who have qualified opinions.

I have always said in interviews and to my students and collegues, the most difficult aspect of being in this business is the ignorance of the consumer. I don't mean that as an insult, but people know so little about voice technique, what it is, what its suppose to be doing for you and what it looks like that they are just completely helpless in making decisions like this. Its not like buying a car where, even if you are not a car expert, you still have some life experience to rely on to make a decent decision. Buying voice training products and services is completely foriegn to most people and this creates frustration for good teachers like Ken and I and the consumers.

Having pointed that out, here is what I believe really counts:

- Does this voice teacher lead by example? Can you find any content online of this individual demonstrating scales, working out or actually attempting to sing a song? It doesn't even have to be amazing, but is there at least an effort to try to do the things they are teaching? If not, run like hell... (Ken's point...).

- Is this person published? Has the teacher taken enough time and energy to actually do some research and compile their thoughts together into some kind of cohesive methodology that makes a contribution to the world of singing, or is this person just repeating the same old tired "raspberry" warm-ups and ideas that came from an earlier era of voice teaching ideas?

- Are you going to learn how to bridge your registers and sing big and "boomy" in the head voice? Are you going to actually get after what I call, the "hard stuff"... or is this just a lot of chest voice workouts and big talk about "increasing" your range with no substance?

- Price is important, but its not the most important thing. I think some teachers simply ask for too much money. If they can collect, then more power to them, but my personal feeling is, I don't care if your taking a lesson with Jesus Christ, no one is worth over $200/hr and that would be very extraordinarily expensive in my opinion. If you pay $200+ for a voice lesson, you are not getting $100+ more value compared to the next, really good coach that charges less. Again, no slight on the coach that can collect that, I think its great, but "price = quality" has its limits and if you let yourself go to far with it, your just a sucker.

- Stay clear of "balance your larynx" and "sing like your speaking" and "speak like your singing in a neutral, balanced laynx" ideas... it is outdated, proven to be insufficient for most singer's needs and will really take you down a path of empty pockets and little results. Go to the world of head voice development, vocal modes, vowel modification and teachers that understand a little bit about laryngeal physiology, acoustics, formants and have a scientific perspective on their teaching. "sing purple" anecdotal teaching is helpful sometimes, but if that's all your getting, your really missing out on the latest understanding and techniques.

... and I could go on...

In my opinion, the top guns are; Myself, Ken Tamplin, CVI, Jamie Vendera, Kevin Richards, James Lugo and other teachers that are involved in extreme singing techniques that push the envelope of new ideas and results. Yes, there are a LOT of other great coaches, I can't name them all, but these individuals will get you results... of course, you have to practice too.

Hope this helps...

-

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These are always difficult posts to respond to for me as you have to walk a very careful line to keep your professional cloak on, while at the same time, my instinct as a voice coach makes me want to just reach out and rescue people.

All the posts that have been placed here are really good and come from experience, either from professionals like Ken and I, or from hard core students of singing like JonPall and videohere who have qualified opinions.

I have always said in interviews and to my students and collegues, the most difficult aspect of being in this business is the ignorance of the consumer. I don't mean that as an insult, but people know so little about voice technique, what it is, what its suppose to be doing for you and what it looks like that they are just completely helpless in making decisions like this. Its not like buying a car where, even if you are not a car expert, you still have some life experience to rely on to make a decent decision. Buying voice training products and services is completely foriegn to most people and this creates frustration for good teachers like Ken and I and the consumers.

Having pointed that out, here is what I believe really counts:

- Does this voice teacher lead by example? Can you find any content online of this individual demonstrating scales, working out or actually attempting to sing a song? It doesn't even have to be amazing, but is there at least an effort to try to do the things they are teaching? If not, run like hell... (Ken's point...).

- Is this person published? Has the teacher taken enough time and energy to actually do some research and compile their thoughts together into some kind of cohesive methodology that makes a contribution to the world of singing, or is this person just repeating the same old tired "raspberry" warm-ups and ideas that came from an earlier era of voice teaching ideas?

- Are you going to learn how to bridge your registers and sing big and "boomy" in the head voice? Are you going to actually get after what I call, the "hard stuff"... or is this just a lot of chest voice workouts and big talk about "increasing" your range with no substance?

- Price is important, but its not the most important thing. I think some teachers simply ask for too much money. If they can collect, then more power to them, but my personal feeling is, I don't care if your taking a lesson with Jesus Christ, no one is worth over $200/hr and that would be very extraordinarily expensive in my opinion. If you pay $200+ for a voice lesson, you are not getting $100+ more value compared to the next, really good coach that charges less. Again, no slight on the coach that can collect that, I think its great, but "price = quality" has its limits and if you let yourself go to far with it, your just a sucker.

- Stay clear of "balance your larynx" and "sing like your speaking" and "speak like your singing in a neutral, balanced laynx" ideas... it is outdated, proven to be insufficient for most singer's needs and will really take you down a path of empty pockets and little results. Go to the world of head voice development, vocal modes, vowel modification and teachers that understand a little bit about laryngeal physiology, acoustics, formants and have a scientific perspective on their teaching. "sing purple" anecdotal teaching is helpful sometimes, but if that's all your getting, your really missing out on the latest understanding and techniques.

... and I could go on...

In my opinion, the top guns are; Myself, Ken Tamplin, CVI, Jamie Vendera, Kevin Richards, James Lugo and other teachers that are involved in extreme singing techniques that push the envelope of new ideas and results. Yes, there are a LOT of other great coaches, I can't name them all, but these individuals will get you results... of course, you have to practice too.

Hope this helps...

-

BTW, my web site is not www.thevocaliststudiostore.com , that is my store... my web site is www.thevocaliststudio.com... :cool:

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i'd just like to add that way too many people are looking for a magic pill, a shortcut, a secret key, to become a great singer.

there just isn't one. and along with learning and hard work and dedication, you have to contend with the inconsistancy of the voice as a human condition affected by so many variables:

lack of humidity, allergies, moods, health, energy, depression, confidence, hydration, diet, attitude and the list goes on and on.

then there's the law of averages...some days you're on, you simply soar and can do no wrong, and others you are off, and no vocal program or throat spray, or whatever is going to help.

it's this acceptance of the inconsistency inherent in the vocal mechanism that propels you to great performances.

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Lately, I've started to realize that perhaps a proper warmup is more important than I thought, especially if you want to sing tough songs. On some days you might not need it, but on those off days like you mentioned, a warm up could fix it for you and get your voice back in shape in a matter of minutes. It has happened to me, now that I think about it. This might be a topic for a separate thread...

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Hey, i'm new here.

I started learning to play guitar and decided I also want to improve my vocal abilities. I want the full package :)

I have no aspiring to become a pro singer. All is want is to be able to sing while playing the guitar or singing in karaoke and that me and my surroundings will enjoy.

I have high self awareness and simply saying my problem is that my voice sucks. I know a lot of people say they have a bad vioce but mine really is. This makes singing not fun for me or anyone around me.

I know the best solution is getting a teacher but this is not an option at the moment. So the solution is some self study product.

I also know that there are a lot of great products and that everyone has their preference, so what i'm looking for is the the product that focuses the most on the foundations - both by EXPLAINING the basics and by training(duh).

After googling and searching in relevant forums I got pritty big list of the recommended coachers:

Seth Riggs: http://www.amazon.com/Singing-Stars-Complete-Program-Training/dp/0882845284

Brett Manning: http://www.singingsuccess.com/products

Kevin Richards: http://www.thevoxshop.com/

Roger Love: http://www.rogerlove.com/products/

Ken Tamplin: http://kentamplinvocalacademy.com/

Robert Lunte: http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/

Jaime Vendera: http://venderapublishing.com/the-ultimate-vocal-workout

Anne Peckham: http://www.annepeckham.com/

Per Bristow: http://www.thesingingzone.com/order.html

James Lugo: http://www.jameslugo.com/order.shtml

Cathrine Sadolin(CVT): http://completevocaltechnique.com/?q=en/Shop

?Singorama by Emily Mander

Can anyone with experience with some of these coachers/products point me to what product should I get? A product that will address my needs the most. (I do not restrict myself to the above list. I don't have problem to learn from multiple sources if necessary-as long as the price is reasonable).

If that matters, the music I listen to the most and want to sing is rock(coldplay, arcade fire...), britpop(oasis, smiths...) and folk/folk-rock(elliott smith, bob dylan...) - so nothing fancy like metal or opera :)

Thanks.

I'm in a very similiar situation and since she's a close friend I get free lessons. Just something you may want to look at.

http://myvoicecoachonline.com/

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I enjoy reading reviews of products and methods, just to see what people are doing (or not doing). I am most in agreement with Robert Lunte. We've had a conversation about some of the things he mentioned in his post. There is nothing which will replace anatomical facts, the science of physics, the science of engineering (the structure and function of the larynx IS an engineering marvel, both in its complexity and in its simplicity.

There are some strict methodologies which may solve some problems in the short run, or help a person to get past a break, but there is much to build beyond that point. Many of the "gurus" mentioned are "spinoffs" of Seth Riggs, but don't often give him credit or acknowledgement.

You won't see the late Richard Miller mentioned too often, but Seth Riggs does credit him with a huge accolade. Richard exposed many of the old myths, fairytales, and misconceptions to modern science. They did not fair too well.

Robert Lunte is the living proof and is the embodiment of his teaching prowess. He "practices what he preaches", so to speak. Walks the walk and sings the song.

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Chuck, that is a very pleasing post and review to read. Thank you, you made my day. I am pleased to see that you are able to recognize some of the merits of my work. I will continue to grow as a teacher and as a singer... and my products and services will always keep getting better and better and better... I am here for you guys... this is my purpose in the world. It is nice to get some genuine recognition like this from time to time, especially on this forum.

Thanks again Chuck,,, anytime you want to train with me over Skype for the friends and family discount, feel free to reach out to me personally.. that goes for copies of "Pillars" as well.

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Most of these programs will work, if that worries you. Different coaches might use different terminologies, stylistic choices or exercises but deep down they share the same fundamentals.

One thing about Pillars and Rob that I believe no one has mentioned so far:

This is probably the best and largest singing community with lots of actual singers who are willing to exchange ideas. It's open to everyone. This is a really important thing to consider.

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You've got a lot of good options. Watch some of their free content on YouTube and possibly even contact the coaches to ask about their products.

Each program and each coach are a little different, so it's a question of finding which one is best for YOU. Personally I picked my coach because his approach to head voice did not involve using falsetto, and the falsetto route had been totally fruitless in the past. But for others that method has worked quite well.

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I might as chime in. Until I got pillars/took skype lessons with Rob, I was stuck at a beginner level. My work with his method got me to intermediate. Before that I tried he SS method...watched the online vids for a year or so and took a couple lessons with an associate, and that didn't even manage to get me past that beginner phase. You could argue it's because I didn't give it enough time, but I will tell you that the improvements I made right after my first lesson with Rob showed a significant increase in pace of progress compared to the SS stuff. However it of course depends on the individual. TVS just hit the spot for me I guess. I also have the CVT book and while it's helped me a bit, IMHO it's not good for beginners, Pillars is much better to start off with.

I haven't tried KTVA but I've heard great singers come out of it. I think those are the big three nowadays: Pillars, CVT, and KTVA. They're all gonna give you the resources to become a great singer if you give them enough time and practice. But I've heard singers who try SLS for several years and still have very very weak voices...it's kind of sad, and I know that it isn't the case for every SLS student, but in general...the fast results they preach about, or at least SS does, they're just not there. Results, sure, but not as fast as the big three I mentioned. And it's worth noting that the best SLS singers I've heard were the ones who didn't listen to heavily to the "light is right" mantra and gradually added more and more "weight" to the exercises.

By the way just to give a general timeline, I'd say it takes months to become a good singer, years to become a great singer, when you are seriously training. Some will go slower than that, some faster, but based on my own results and the results of other members of this forum, that seems to be the average rate of progress.

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I might as chime in. Until I got pillars/took skype lessons with Rob, I was stuck at a beginner level. My work with his method got me to intermediate. Before that I tried he SS method...watched the online vids for a year or so and took a couple lessons with an associate, and that didn't even manage to get me past that beginner phase. You could argue it's because I didn't give it enough time, but I will tell you that the improvements I made right after my first lesson with Rob showed a significant increase in pace of progress compared to the SS stuff. However it of course depends on the individual. TVS just hit the spot for me I guess. I also have the CVT book and while it's helped me a bit, IMHO it's not good for beginners, Pillars is much better to start off with.

I haven't tried KTVA but I've heard great singers come out of it. I think those are the big three nowadays: Pillars, CVT, and KTVA. They're all gonna give you the resources to become a great singer if you give them enough time and practice. But I've heard singers who try SLS for several years and still have very very weak voices...it's kind of sad, and I know that it isn't the case for every SLS student, but in general...the fast results they preach about, or at least SS does, they're just not there. Results, sure, but not as fast as the big three I mentioned. And it's worth noting that the best SLS singers I've heard were the ones who didn't listen to heavily to the "light is right" mantra and gradually added more and more "weight" to the exercises.

By the way just to give a general timeline, I'd say it takes months to become a good singer, years to become a great singer, when you are seriously training. Some will go slower than that, some faster, but based on my own results and the results of other members of this forum, that seems to be the average rate of progress.

I should try to steer clear of this to some extent, but I have to agree with Owen's perspective here. I too agree that the three best programs in the world today, to get big, tangible results are probably TVS, CVT and KTVA. Of those three, TVS & CVT are neck to neck for 1st place probably. I think where TVS may edge ahead of the other top offerings is not so much on the techniques, because at this level, a lot of it is similar, but in the quality of the products and the shear amount of training content that is available for customers. I have always made it a high priority to make my product the best in the business and to offer a LOT of value inside. You can read more about it and watch a video on "The Four Pillars of Singing" here:

http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/The-Four-Pillars-of-Singing-30_p_27.html

I invite you to scroll to the bottom of the page and read the reviews as well... these are from real clients. Ok, Ill stop shamelessly pitching my stuff here... but I do sincerely believe in my work... and as you can see, I stepped up and give merit to CVT and KTVA as well.

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Doesn't work for me, have to sign up for something-a-rather.

I guess I'm at the stage of singing (amateur) where it doesn't matter where the knowledge and exercises come from, I'll progress anyway.

SS was my choice since I didn't want to invest a huge amount, and I'm a pedant, over-analytical student who'd probably drive just about any vocal coach crazy, and I'd end up paying out of my nose for private lessons in which I'd be asking a lot of stupid questions as to the whats and the whys of a certain technique.

My opinion is this: Basic understanding of vocal anatomy will go a long way, and it will help in developing one's singing no matter who it is giving you midpoint goals. Here's what I've done:

- Paid for 5 vocal lessons, before this had no experience in singing or vocal production whatsoever. Couldn't sing pretty much at all without sounding just awful. Ended up doing some scales and was taught some visualizations that really didn't help me at all. This was 5 lessons, at 50 minutes each.

- Started learning extreme styles of singing, singing way beyond my range (or trying to) and just belting out shit that didn't hurt. I guessed that if I don't hurt then I can't be doing anything too wrong. Did this for about 2 years. Ended up singing death metal in a progressive melodic death metal band. It was pretty bad too.

- Kept learning stuff from forums, vids on youtube, breath support came kinda naturally, I've never actually breathed upwards, always down into the abdomen. (Yes, I'm aware that's not all that support's about)

- Bought Vendera's Raise Your Voice and Melissa Cross' Zen of Screaming, started doing the scales. Felt like I progressed, but it didn't really help, I didn't really find anything that actually guided me through the exercises, and at this point Jaime's book was too anatomical (meaning my understanding of the vocal anatomy was lacking).

- Bought SS on impulse about half a year ago. Started doing the lessons, and now, even though I've still got five lessons left, I've made more progress than I ever had on my own, or with the help of the teacher I chose at the time I did.

Now, it goes without saying that there are a ton of different "methods" and ways to teach someone. The "method" is the whole point in choosing a different teacher. The physical actions and their effects do not, however, vary or change. Without taking into account the differences in anatomy, people's sound-producing muscles are the same. They work the same, some better than others. It's not impossible to listen and feel for physical sensations and linking those sensations to changes in tone or release.

This is my ideology: I don't really need to pay anyone to learn. Paying will speed me up, though, but I've thoroughly enjoyed the process so far with the "school" of vocal coaching I've spent it with. This doesn't mean I value it more than others, I couldn't, because I haven't even tried them. SS just seemed perfect: One purchase, 12 cds worth of stuff to do without committing to a student-teacher relationship that'd cost virgin blood.

Also, another (maybe dumb) analogy I like to rely on: I believe in the "black belt effect," that the illusion of the best teacher in the world teaching you to be the best student in the world from beginner to expert is pretty delusional. I don't need the black belt to teach me to progress, I need someone who's better than me. :)

I am, however, totally open to suggestions, and I don't have a habit of idolizing people (which seems to be very, very common in the world of interwebz), so even if SS works for me, I don't think Brett's god and everything he says is automatically unquestionable.

Sorry for the rant. It's late. I better go sleep this off. :)

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To throw a monkey wrench into the SS discussion, I'm not a huge fan of Brett based on what I've seen. However, his protege Jesse Nemitz comes across as an extremely competent instructor and singer. If the SS method appeals to you, maybe consider working with him?

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If you are big on over analyzing/ vocal anatomy etc then you should REALLY look into Robert and 4 Pillars. 4 Pillars is about as sciency as you can get. Where other places would just say "you did too much chest pulling there" 4 pillars terminology is "too much m1/TA activation causing a shallow placement.

Disclaimer: I'm a TVS student myself, so I am not saying that the inclusion of technical terms etc is a bad thing at all.

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