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Failing still at singing


D.Starr

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D.Starr: Ok, cool. Congrats!

Here is the next exercise, a refinement of what you just did, on the other end of the breath cycle, at the end of the inhale. The goals of this exercise is to extend your ability to control adduction to the point of glottal closure, to increase your awareness of the sensations involved, and to manage the extra energy levels available after an inhalation.

In the same position, take a medium (1/2 or so) breath, stop inhaling for a moment, leaving the throat in the posture of inhalation, and do a couple coughs like you did, with the same gentle pop sound as the goal. Exhale. Repeat this, and each time you repeat, make the cough progressively softer. Remember, it should begin with the gentle pop that indicates full adduction (glottal closure). Continue with the progressively softer coughs until they sound more like small clicks.

With just a few minutes practice, you will likely get to the point where you can do this pretty much whenever you want to.

With this very low level of intensity, you have improved your ability to adduct to the extent you choose, and are becoming more familiar with the sensations of glottal closure and the slight air pressure in the lungs right before the pop.

Let me know how this goes. When you are ready, I can provide the next exercise.

GOT IT!! Feels rather cool. Like my breath is kind of suspended. Weird. Fire the next exercise :)

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GOT IT!! Feels rather cool. Like my breath is kind of suspended. Weird. Fire the next exercise :)

D.Starr: Yes, I agree... feels rather cool. At the end of this post, I will provide some comments about that sense of suspension.

The next exercise is an extension of what you just did, by adding a simple phonation to the very gentle pops. Here is the procedure:

In the same position, and taking the same 1/2 inhale, with the same suspension of the inhale with the throat in the posture of the inhalation,

- do two of the soft pop coughs, about 1/2 second apart, and then adduct as if you were going to do a third one but pop to a 1 second phonation, take a short catch breath, and repeat the 2 pop coughs. If written out, it looks like

pop, pop, phonated 1 second 'ah'. (small breath) pop, pop, phonated 1 second 'ah'. (small breath) (repeat.....)

We are not looking for massive volume here, but the phonation will start with a pop, and be clear. FYI, this is actually not the optimal onset for long term, strong singing , because its a glottal onset. However, at this volume level, its fine to do a little of this. If you keep the total time of the exercise repetitions to 1 minute or less, and only do it at the softest level consistent with clear tone, its fine.

Repeat this exercise for 1 minute early in the day, and 1 additional minute late in the day, for 3 days. At the end of the 3 days, you will be so good at this that you won't have to think very much to get it to work, and you will be ready for the next exercise, which will be to reposition yourself into a sitting posture, and to remove the popstart, replacing it with a coordinated onset.

On the sense of breath suspension: This sensation happens when the diaphragm stays engaged (that is, does not relax) at the end of the inhalation. This continued engagement of the diaphragm delays the exhale from starting, preventing the sudden release of all the energy stored in the body during the inhalation.

Phonation which is based on this feeling of suspension draws on this stored up energy automatically at the moment of onset.

Let us know how things are going as you continue your practice for the next few days, and when you are ready to move on to the next exercise.

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Hey D.Starr, one thing to consider is that your resonance is not adjusting correctly as you go up in pitch. I found that for a long time I was not adjusting my vocal tract (area above the folds) correctly as I ascended, specifically I wasn't shortening it by allowing my larynx to rise, a product of starting with SLS's low/stable larynx philosophy I think. I finally found that my throat tightening and the tendency to go breathy or fall out was actually a Symptom of not letting the Resonance do the work, rather than breathing or closure. If your resonance falls out, the instinct is to force the cords to work harder for the same output. Eventually they give out and you go to falsetto when you get high enough. Focusing on shortening the vocal tract and also vowel modification may help prevent the instinctual tightening as you go up and you might find the phonation related things fall into place. I always underestimated how much resonance or lack thereof seems to feed back to how you phonate. Steven's thread on Formants & Harmonics goes into amazing detail on this.

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D.Starr: Yes, I agree... feels rather cool. At the end of this post, I will provide some comments about that sense of suspension.

The next exercise is an extension of what you just did, by adding a simple phonation to the very gentle pops. Here is the procedure:

In the same position, and taking the same 1/2 inhale, with the same suspension of the inhale with the throat in the posture of the inhalation,

- do two of the soft pop coughs, about 1/2 second apart, and then adduct as if you were going to do a third one but pop to a 1 second phonation, take a short catch breath, and repeat the 2 pop coughs. If written out, it looks like

pop, pop, phonated 1 second 'ah'. (small breath) pop, pop, phonated 1 second 'ah'. (small breath) (repeat.....)

We are not looking for massive volume here, but the phonation will start with a pop, and be clear. FYI, this is actually not the optimal onset for long term, strong singing , because its a glottal onset. However, at this volume level, its fine to do a little of this. If you keep the total time of the exercise repetitions to 1 minute or less, and only do it at the softest level consistent with clear tone, its fine.

Repeat this exercise for 1 minute early in the day, and 1 additional minute late in the day, for 3 days. At the end of the 3 days, you will be so good at this that you won't have to think very much to get it to work, and you will be ready for the next exercise, which will be to reposition yourself into a sitting posture, and to remove the popstart, replacing it with a coordinated onset.

On the sense of breath suspension: This sensation happens when the diaphragm stays engaged (that is, does not relax) at the end of the inhalation. This continued engagement of the diaphragm delays the exhale from starting, preventing the sudden release of all the energy stored in the body during the inhalation.

Phonation which is based on this feeling of suspension draws on this stored up energy automatically at the moment of onset.

Let us know how things are going as you continue your practice for the next few days, and when you are ready to move on to the next exercise.

Steven, this is an amazing thread, thank you!

Is the exercise meant to sound like this? http://www.box.com/s/tveeltzb2ldcvnmq430d

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Hey D.Starr, one thing to consider is that your resonance is not adjusting correctly as you go up in pitch. I found that for a long time I was not adjusting my vocal tract (area above the folds) correctly as I ascended, specifically I wasn't shortening it by allowing my larynx to rise, a product of starting with SLS's low/stable larynx philosophy I think. I finally found that my throat tightening and the tendency to go breathy or fall out was actually a Symptom of not letting the Resonance do the work, rather than breathing or closure. If your resonance falls out, the instinct is to force the cords to work harder for the same output. Eventually they give out and you go to falsetto when you get high enough. Focusing on shortening the vocal tract and also vowel modification may help prevent the instinctual tightening as you go up and you might find the phonation related things fall into place. I always underestimated how much resonance or lack thereof seems to feed back to how you phonate. Steven's thread on Formants & Harmonics goes into amazing detail on this.

Hmm interesting. The thing I found was I could never keep my larynx down, as much as I tried. To be honest at times I feel Im choking on it. I feel a tightness in my neck and under my chin. I have a singing teacher and we're working on decreasing weight and getting a heady placement. I still pull around F4 at times though.

Its support that is annoying me. I never engage it as I go up and I think the support I do engage is inccorect. I like what Steven is describing to me though.

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The latest exercise is really interesting Steven.

I feel the diaphragm in a way engage as I pronounce the ah. I also feel my lower abdomen and lower back push outwards. Not forced.

I'm really liking this.

One more day and onto the new exercise :)

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d, i just finished reading a book by mark bosnian..here's what he wrote to help get a feel of support:

while sitting under a table, put both of your hands palms up and press upwards as if to try to lift it. do it once while breathing for 10 seconds, and once while holding your breath for 10 seconds.

notice the sensation you feel in the lower core while breathing vs. holding your breath.

did you feel your lower core muscles kick in when you held back your breath?

that's very close to the feeling you have when you sing with support. and of course it varies according to what you want to do, but you need support to sing well.

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d, i just finished reading a book by mark bosnian..here's what he wrote to help get a feel of support:

while sitting under a table, put both of your hands palms up and press upwards as if to try to lift it. do it once while breathing for 10 seconds, and once while holding your breath for 10 seconds.

notice the sensation you feel in the lower core while breathing vs. holding your breath.

did you feel your lower core muscles kick in when you held back your breath?

that's very close to the feeling you have when you sing with support. and of course it varies according to what you want to do, but you need support to sing well.

Interesting Bob. Not got a low enough table to push up but I'll see what I can work with.

As for these exercises Steven I'm not sure if I'm getting a definite pop like in the recording someone posted earlier. It's not a loud pop, but rather quiet.

If I can describe what I'm doing, it's closer to a form of vocal fry.

I'll post a clip of two things I suspect it could be.

EDIT

What I've been doing. Feels so discomfort after a bit using this. Feels like a more outwards push.

http://www.box.com/s/66gshmgz3fc4tqrvzhbe

What feels more like I'm using my soft pallet, a little. Harder to pronounce the ah afterwards with this. Feels like I'm pulling the sound inwards. Finding it easier to do after I do it a little more.

http://www.box.com/s/q2jvrjnigaixy6sqbuua

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Haha it's just really upsetting that I'm at this point in the road when I feel I should be doing 100mph down the motorway.

I live in the UK, I don't think there are any TVS coaches here.

Yeah I've got some money so I'll try and book a lesson, it's just worrying about the time difference and because I work in retail, it's been long hours at work :(.

Steven Fraser is helping me to get this adduction, breathing, support issue down. I'm very grateful.

Just checked your TVS store and it's $100 for the internet lessons?

Hi Star, yes,... the internet lessons are $100/hr... but if you invest in a 3-pack its $260, so you save $40. I just want to help you anyway I can Starr... is sounds like your getting some good tips from Steve... stick with it. Steve is one of MY teachers, he ha taught me much... and truly one of the world's leading experts on everything singing...

Star, why don't you send me a couple files of you doing a slow and controlled siren from G3 to G4 and/or D3 to D4... I want to hear what our doing, Ill give you some free feedback on that.

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D.Starr,

I am pretty confident your problem with curbing is that you are failing to let the larynx tilt.

As of recently I had the exact same struggles as you are describing, trying to add cry/support/twang/vowelmods/etc, experiencing SOME relief but not nearly as much as there should be when trying to sing curbing in the passaggio area. I've been working with Tony from Vocalpower and as of a few days ago I've gotten to experience the larynx tilt which is supposed to take place and I find myself singing curbing in the passagio area with MUCH less effort.

To describe the sensation, hum something very low pitch in neutral, then siren up to something very high pitch in neutral, I can feel the larynx lifting and can feel the resonance moving from chest up to head. When doing arpeggios in curbing on the notes (Eb4-G4#). I can feel the larynx rocking forward more with each note in a similair way and there is no strain. I am now successfully letting go of vocal weight and it feels like a balancing act. I have to be very aware of support, balance, vowelmods etc to avoid cracking into neutral/falsetto, but the important thing is that there is no strain-increase. (I learned this coordination a few days ago btw). I believe this is why people often claim that high and low notes are the easier ones and that the real tough ones are in the passaggio area. This because all these adjustments are subtle and very gradual on the passaggio notes, but once you get through you are more "leaning" towards one side with the CT/TA (an assumption made right now) and it's more of a balancing act in the passaggio.

You mentioned you CAN sing above E4 but not without tension. Same here, I can sing up to A4 actually but the tension increases gradually above E4 and at A4 it's just real bad. If I were to have sung E4, F4, F4# etc I would constrict more with each note and this way I would get to note but not the right way. Now when practising, instead of constricting to get the next note, I manage to let my larynx tilt and It's very gentle but still it is a tough balancing act (at least for now).

Earlier I sang curbing with too much volume and was probably leaning towards overdrive. My old way, singing a G4 would be maybe a 7/10 on an effort-level scale (support, constriction etc), while it's maybe a 2/10 now when practising my arpeggios, but as I mentioned earlier it's a tough balancing act but I believe this is the CT/TA struggling with the balance.

When doing your curbing arpeggios, you need to keep the volume medium and try to keep the top note the lowest volume (not so low that you loose the curbing mode though). Of course the volume rises with pitch but try to keep it all medium. If you're a pusher like me then probably you have tendencies to slip into overdrive and start being way loud here. You must also support, try to place the sound up and back towards the ears (soft palate) and adjust your vowels. I used to try supporting extremley hard, like a madman actually but now I find I don't have to support THAT hard.

I started experiencing this sensation for the first time after doing about 40 minutes of new exercises Tony gave me. I truly believe I'm finding the right CT/TA coordination after a long while of trying and I'm practising like a madman at the moment. In fact, it blows my mind how gentle/without strain it is that I find myself practising arpeggios for fun! (Outside of my every day 40 min routine).

Now, I don't think you'll make it without a vocal coach. I probably would not have and now that I'm taking lessons I can't believe I didn't start doing this earlier. You need someone experienced to help you out, because I'll a large sum of money on the fact that you are doing tons of stuff wrong without noticing it or even knowing it yourself. Now you mentioned something about taking lessons with Rob, I'm sure that would be great. I can vouch for Tony since I have personal experience but I'm sure youll be fine as long as you get a good vocal coach ASAP.

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Thanks Sun. I'll try it out. Nice to know your out of the bad habits and hitting new heights.

Yeah hopefully I can book a lesson with Rob soon, it's just finding a time when I'm free from work and obviously when he is free.

I've watched a few of Tony's videos and I find it hard to do. I always add waaay too much cry, I try and lessen it and it just falls apart.

I mean this first bit he sings is just painful to sing.

I'm experiencing a sore throat at the moment so singing is on hold. But I will try out what you said.

I've hit an A4 before and it was free of strain. It was and wasn't pleasing.

Here's the clip.

http://www.box.com/s/c9pp8movymqgakxi9yfo

It felt so released like in my nose. Tried it again and just choked.

Another issue is my support, which is what Steven is helping on as well as Bob giving a recommendation.

Oh here Rob

G3-G4

http://www.box.com/files#/files/0/f/0/1/f_896356773

http://www.box.com/files#/files/0/f/0/1/f_896346497

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Sure, no problem.

The exercises in Tonys public videos didn't do it for me either. We all have different issues, but for me it was not really about amount of cry, support etc. I think it's just when you're in the kind of situation we are in, used to pushing, being too loud and too heavy it's just very unnatural to balance the curbing or middle voice since we lean so much towards the heavy side.

I listened to your clip with the A4, heres the thing. On some good days I've sang many A4s without really feeling strained, but could you do a slow siren up to an A4 and sustain it with vibrato OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again without straining? Also look for constriction in the throat, if you can feel or see anything suspicious (I can clearly see movement on my throat when I'm constricting). You're doing it wrong.

Again it took me about 35 minutes of running different exercises (given specifically for me) before I even started getting this sensation. When you get to that point where you feel the need to push, you should be totally relaxed and just let the voice go, problem is you'll probably flip into falsetto. You'll know if you're doing it right when it truly feels like you're gonna release into falsetto but manage to not crack and there is NO strain. The difficulty should be the balancing. I just tried myself and could sustain a curbing medium volume F4 for about 7 seconds with NO strain. This may not sound so impressive but this is brand new coordination for me and it feels super gentle, I actually feel a release when I'm at the top of the arpeggio. I could NEVER have done this a few days ago.

Remember, gentle, medium volume, top note the lowest volume, ZERO strain. Let the larynx tilt and try to not let it crack. Practise from somewhere below the passaggio such as A3 and move up as far as you can do this without constricting. If you see neck muscles constricting, you crack or anything back down and try again.

I know I'm being a bit repetitive but I'm just so confident in the fact that I have found the right path (FINALLY) and that you are having the same problems I had 3 days ago.

I was browsing youtube on random singing videos and found a video clip with Eric Arcenaux showing how to practise middle voice. I only really watched it because I looked at some of his clips a long time ago, and when he was explaining the middle voice he did this gesture with his fingers which was clearly larynx tilt (he was talking about letting the voice cross over). It looked exactly the way it feels for me now. You need to let the cross over but it's hard without cracking. It's kind of a catch 22, you can't really practise the curbing if you're not getting the larynx tilt, but once you find that connection you can practise it more and more like I'm doing. Hopefully you'll get this soon and I'll race you to the High D's and C's :)

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D.Starr,

I am pretty confident your problem with curbing is that you are failing to let the larynx tilt.

As of recently I had the exact same struggles as you are describing, trying to add cry/support/twang/vowelmods/etc, experiencing SOME relief but not nearly as much as there should be when trying to sing curbing in the passaggio area. I've been working with Tony from Vocalpower and as of a few days ago I've gotten to experience the larynx tilt which is supposed to take place and I find myself singing curbing in the passagio area with MUCH less effort.

To describe the sensation, hum something very low pitch in neutral, then siren up to something very high pitch in neutral, I can feel the larynx lifting and can feel the resonance moving from chest up to head. When doing arpeggios in curbing on the notes (Eb4-G4#). I can feel the larynx rocking forward more with each note in a similair way and there is no strain. I am now successfully letting go of vocal weight and it feels like a balancing act. I have to be very aware of support, balance, vowelmods etc to avoid cracking into neutral/falsetto, but the important thing is that there is no strain-increase. (I learned this coordination a few days ago btw). I believe this is why people often claim that high and low notes are the easier ones and that the real tough ones are in the passaggio area. This because all these adjustments are subtle and very gradual on the passaggio notes, but once you get through you are more "leaning" towards one side with the CT/TA (an assumption made right now) and it's more of a balancing act in the passaggio.

You mentioned you CAN sing above E4 but not without tension. Same here, I can sing up to A4 actually but the tension increases gradually above E4 and at A4 it's just real bad. If I were to have sung E4, F4, F4# etc I would constrict more with each note and this way I would get to note but not the right way. Now when practising, instead of constricting to get the next note, I manage to let my larynx tilt and It's very gentle but still it is a tough balancing act (at least for now).

Earlier I sang curbing with too much volume and was probably leaning towards overdrive. My old way, singing a G4 would be maybe a 7/10 on an effort-level scale (support, constriction etc), while it's maybe a 2/10 now when practising my arpeggios, but as I mentioned earlier it's a tough balancing act but I believe this is the CT/TA struggling with the balance.

When doing your curbing arpeggios, you need to keep the volume medium and try to keep the top note the lowest volume (not so low that you loose the curbing mode though). Of course the volume rises with pitch but try to keep it all medium. If you're a pusher like me then probably you have tendencies to slip into overdrive and start being way loud here. You must also support, try to place the sound up and back towards the ears (soft palate) and adjust your vowels. I used to try supporting extremley hard, like a madman actually but now I find I don't have to support THAT hard.

I started experiencing this sensation for the first time after doing about 40 minutes of new exercises Tony gave me. I truly believe I'm finding the right CT/TA coordination after a long while of trying and I'm practising like a madman at the moment. In fact, it blows my mind how gentle/without strain it is that I find myself practising arpeggios for fun! (Outside of my every day 40 min routine).

Now, I don't think you'll make it without a vocal coach. I probably would not have and now that I'm taking lessons I can't believe I didn't start doing this earlier. You need someone experienced to help you out, because I'll a large sum of money on the fact that you are doing tons of stuff wrong without noticing it or even knowing it yourself. Now you mentioned something about taking lessons with Rob, I'm sure that would be great. I can vouch for Tony since I have personal experience but I'm sure youll be fine as long as you get a good vocal coach ASAP.

+1 on Tony.

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Cool. Yeah I can hiss out for like 50 seconds but sustaining a note is only like 10-15. Trying to hit 20.

My support isn't great and I have alot of strain in my neck and under my chin as I hit F4. So hard not to.

Being a deep voiced person I naturally talk deeper, not really deep. I can lighten my voice up, it's just keeping it connected and sustained.

Yeah I've watched Eric a few times, but still hit walls when I'm singing a long.

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Don't fret over your voice type. Having a low voice is probably the reason you don't have this connection naturally, same for me.

Also for F4 there is not that much support needed, if you find yourself having to support real hard here then you are doing something else wrong. My support is pretty crappy as well btw, can hiss with note for about 25-30 seconds but this probably also depends on lung size. I wrote earlier I used to try and support like a madman but right now I can tell you F4 medium volume curbing only needs light support. I can actually sustain it without trying to support at all but this makes it unstable and prone to cracking.

But this form of lightening up is not so much about making a lighter sound by f.ex. twang. This is about adjustments the larynx needs to do in the throat to dump weight. I can twang like crazy and still carry vocal weight. The adjustments will begin before F4, for me I really start to notice things at Eb4. You should be practising from below the passagio, move up and only procceed if you get it right. Remember, no constricting allowed no matter how bad your support is. It was only when I embraced the 0% constriction that I finally found the coordination.

If you are hitting a roof this is because you are pushing, you should be cracking instead of hitting roofs. You won't hit a roof if you are dumping vocal weight correctly but you might crack because it's difficult to keep the balance.

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raphaels,

I am doing the CVT curbing vowels which would be, UH as in hungry, O as in woman and I as in sit. Right now I'm only doing UH or O as they feel the most natural for me at the moment. I think Tony told me to do Mum which would be the UH. Right now I find it easier to do it legato style so I don't really do Mums.

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I can't seem to get the sound to lighten and keep the strain down. I go into head voice at about E4.

I've tried to add a small amount of cry and little support in the lower abs and back. Still distorts a lot.

I really would like to do a skype session with either Tony or Rob, but I have a tight schedule this week with work. Really frustrating because I can't seem to move forward at all with my singing.

Lip bubble

http://www.box.com/s/xcjaxrnfdahqnxixz6t6

Random notes

http://www.box.com/s/8k59g6in7f8vj7mg10vz

The D4 is started to become strained. Obviously you can hear the F4 and G4 are strained.

I try and lighten them but just fail. I'm supporting them as well. I'd add a cry but they'd sound horrible.

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D.Starr,

I know how you are feeling, I was also getting VERY frustrated because in my attempts to sing lightly I still didn't manage to get the vocal weight release.

After you are warmed up, try doing sirens on M, N and NG. Now, do one octave sirens starting on A2->A3 and continue with every semitone. Keep the volume and sound light, and only go as high as comfortable, I'm guessing up to maybe Db4 or maybe D4. Loop this for maybe 10 minutes or so, only going as high as comfortable. The point of this is that the NG, N, M sounds will help you get the larynx tilt, but since you are not succesfully tilting now you won't be able to do it higher than around D4 or so without straining. The point is, after doing this for 10 minutes, try the arpeggios again and see if you can find that connection. Again, you won't have to kill yourself supporting around D4 or Eb4 but try to do following: Support, place tone up and back, cry, LET the larynx do it's natural movement. When you're pushing you are RESISTING the natural movement. If you just do an ascending siren low to high and LET the voice crack naturally (curbing->neutral) you will feel the larynx "doing it's thing".

You won't progress with curbing until you get yourself to do the neccesary adjustments and the goal right now should be to find that connection. I realize it's difficult to "find" something when you don't even know what it's gonna feel like, and it is kind of a game of "shooting in the dark" trying to find it. Right now for me, I am progressing and am getting the A4s now in a gentle curbing.

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D.Starr,

There is not much point in you trying to get the G4 now because by then you are already pulling. The larynx movements start around D4 or so and the strain will kick in around here as well and follow you up the scale. For this reason you should practise from below to the passagio to around D4 or so in my opinion. If it starts getting tough already here, you know you are not getting it right.

Do the vowel with a dopy sound like the uh in "Mum". Place the sound up and back in the soft palate, this will have you sounding a bit like an opera singer. Also don't shoot for the notes straight on just yet, do the arppegios, this will make it easier for the voice to adjust as you ascend.

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D.Starr,

I know how you are feeling, I was also getting VERY frustrated because in my attempts to sing lightly I still didn't manage to get the vocal weight release.

After you are warmed up, try doing sirens on M, N and NG. Now, do one octave sirens starting on A2->A3 and continue with every semitone. Keep the volume and sound light, and only go as high as comfortable, I'm guessing up to maybe Db4 or maybe D4. Loop this for maybe 10 minutes or so, only going as high as comfortable. The point of this is that the NG, N, M sounds will help you get the larynx tilt, but since you are not succesfully tilting now you won't be able to do it higher than around D4 or so without straining. The point is, after doing this for 10 minutes, try the arpeggios again and see if you can find that connection. Again, you won't have to kill yourself supporting around D4 or Eb4 but try to do following: Support, place tone up and back, cry, LET the larynx do it's natural movement. When you're pushing you are RESISTING the natural movement. If you just do an ascending siren low to high and LET the voice crack naturally (curbing->neutral) you will feel the larynx "doing it's thing".

You won't progress with curbing until you get yourself to do the neccesary adjustments and the goal right now should be to find that connection. I realize it's difficult to "find" something when you don't even know what it's gonna feel like, and it is kind of a game of "shooting in the dark" trying to find it. Right now for me, I am progressing and am getting the A4s now in a gentle curbing.

Thanks for the help Sun. I'll try these and report back soon.

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Sure, also I'll record an example of how the arpeggios should sound later tonight. It's kind of time consuming trying to describe a sound with words :D Key is to keep the volume down.

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