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Ramon

Eddie Vedder Technique

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Singing in overdrive up to C5 is not that hard really. I used to think it was, but my overdrive was not centered back then (you can even find an old post on here where I tried to do overdrive but was actually in neutral! LOL). I find it much easier to do overdrive up there than curbing, to be honest (I still can't consistently curb above F4).

I also don't know whether you could really call it "pulling chest" because the chest resonance still goes away. I believe the evil Martin H was correct when he said that pulling chest is just another term for constrictions.

Also regarding this Eddie Vedder debate, I can see both points of view because I have both enjoyed his singing and cringed at it. The main thing that really matters is whether Eddie Vedder himself is happy with the results. I'd be surprised if he weren't, because I'm sure he could easily obtain the help required to unlock the parts of the voice that he doesn't use - if he felt the need to.

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Singing in overdrive up to C5 is not that hard really. I used to think it was, but my overdrive was not centered back then. I find it much easier to do overdrive up there than curbing, to be honest (I still can't consistently curb above F4).

I also don't know whether you could really call it "pulling chest" because the chest resonance still goes away. I believe the evil Martin H was correct when he said that pulling chest is just another term for constrictions.

That's interesting. Maybe you could post a clip of this?

That's also strange as even post problem when my throat is not at it's worst (especially in a warm shower, where my muscles get soothed just a little), I can curb a little, but overdrive is almost always the most painful for me. It's like I lost my speaking voice.

Yeah, to be honest, I could have freed up a bit more constriction in my my shout style singing I'm sure by centering the voice a bit more (and twanging more consistently), but I think something else happened during that ignorant experimental phase that was way worse than a shout.

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and for the record, CVT makes a lot of claims that are not true, in spite of their merits.

Do you have any specific examples? That could be a really interesting discussion to have, provided people remained level-headed and objective.

If CVT said its ok to push and pull chest and implied it was something to be admired, then they are not the school I thought they were... but I'm quite sure , they didnt say that, as I have read the book and know much about it... I don't recall any favorable commentary on "pulling chest".

What they actually do say is that you can take overdrive (which has a shouty character) up pretty high (C5/D5 for men/women respectively) if you want to. It's up to the artist to decide whether they want that sound or some other sound, and it's up to each listener to decide whether they admire it or not. But there's nothing "objectively bad" about a shouty character, unless it's done unhealthily with constrictions.

It's also easier for most people, so amateurs are more likely to be able to do it. That doesn't make it wrong.

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.... and getting back to the original post... we have to all apologize a bit, we often get off on tangents here at the TMV Forum... but the bottom line is... Eddie Vedder doesn't really have technique, in the true sense. He is doing what we call "Pulling chest" or simply shouting at high notes... while it might sound cool, it doesn't represent a "vocal technique"... it in fact, represents a lack of vocal technique.

Now you can study vocal technique with someone like myself for example and learn how to sing similar to that and sound like that, but not hurt yourself... because the truth is, when Eddie Vedder sings , he often is hurting... it doesn't feel good... its choking him and creating stress and discomfort for him often... vocal health is another big reason why people train vocal technique.

I hope this clarifies for you...

I agree completely.

And all this argument around the techniques of Vedder will lead nowhere. No one will sing better even if Vedder himself came here and said that he is taking classes with Robert. Neither will Ten be less of an album just because the obvious was stated.

Its funny... I have a friend who would be probably mad at me if I said that Vedder was technical... :P

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It might depend on what you call pulling chest. To me it means singing below (what I consider to be) the passaggio. The highest I've ever gone like this is B4. I suppose I could reach a C if I kept practicing it. But it really would be a scream. An ear shattering scream. And it took a lot more work for me to reach Bb4 in overdrive than it did to reach it with curbing or edge.

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What they actually do say is that you can take overdrive (which has a shouty character) up pretty high (C5/D5 for men/women respectively) if you want to. It's up to the artist to decide whether they want that sound or some other sound, and it's up to each listener to decide whether they admire it or not. But there's nothing "objectively bad" about a shouty character, unless it's done unhealthily with constrictions.

It's also easier for most people, so amateurs are more likely to be able to do it. That doesn't make it wrong.

You see this was exactly what I wanted. "Up to the artist to decide" from known healthy sounds, rather than the method deciding what sounds best.

If CVT works even half as well as what they claim, I wish very, very much I had found this instead of Speech Level Singing, because I honestly believe I'd still have a voice. I could have looked through and been like 'Oh that's what I'm doing and this is how I can do this more properly' instead of thinking 'oh, I sing completely wrong better completely change everything in ignorance.'

In the position I'm currently in, I can't test this. I just wish I would have known this sooner, so I wasn't freaking out in ignorance over misinformation and making any problem, if there indeed was any problem in the first place worse.

With my friend who is singing, it's like, I'm afraid of voice programs now for ignorant people, but if she were to have one, I'd want it to be comprehensive and not 'there is only one way to sing' cause I know pretty well there are more.

But yeah, I see all of these things that feel right to me and seem to have a lot of evidence behind them, but I can't put them to the test cause it's too late. I already got boned by misinformation on the 'right' way to sing. It makes me sad.

In that sense, I really envy guys like Eddie Vedder who are sticking to their guns. If it's working for him, it's better than what happened to me.

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I'm a little skeptical that he was totally pulling chest for the B4s and C#5s in Baba O'Riley as well as the passage down from B4 in Daughter. I think it's more so short bursts of sloppy twanging. Besides, he's no tenor and I mean he doesn't exactly sound like Phil Anselmo belting when he's hitting those notes. It's nowhere near as powerful as when Layne Staley hits those same notes twanging in head voice (although if I'm paying attention to what I've heard, read, and done, chest voice volume and power can be surpassed through twanging with practice.) But with these grunge singers, the power and placement tend change kind of dramatically above A4. I think even Jim Morrison did this for his high Bs. I believe sloppy head voice twanging is how Kurt Cobain got his distinctive assish sound in songs such as Lounge act. I don't think that any of them were aware of this as they were doing it, so I guess it isn't "technique" but if I were trying to replicate it I would do it with sloppy twanging.

Thank you, exactly. The good point here is that... MANY artists, in order sing high pitches... are twanging in the head voice, even if they do not or didn't realize it. Including Vedder, Staley, Cobain, etc... the list is infinite. There are those that have "kinda" figured it out... I mean, if you wail in the bathroom long enough and experiment with different contractions in your larynx, you are bound to stumble upon twang... now, whether or not you have any command and control over it, is another story and where training comes in.

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I agree completely.

And all this argument around the techniques of Vedder will lead nowhere. No one will sing better even if Vedder himself came here and said that he is taking classes with Robert. Neither will Ten be less of an album just because the obvious was stated.

Its funny... I have a friend who would be probably mad at me if I said that Vedder was technical... :P

The album 10 would not sound any better, agreed... as I know the producer personally, he is someone I have recorded with and will be doing more work with this year... however, if Eddie Vedder took some voice lessons with me, he most certainly would benefit it! Just because someone is a big star, it doesn't mean they are untouchable or can't learn or improve just like any other student of singing. If he did do such a thing, it wouldn't change his signature sound a bit, what it might do is, help him to make the same sounds with less discomfort.

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Killer... are you a student of TVS? Have you purchased "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0? I feel a bit sorry for you actually with your SLS story... I would like an opportunity to help you over the internet on skype lessons... I am not convinced that you have vocal problems as bad as you think... I would like ot hear it and work with you on it and there is a good chance... that you will surprise yourself. Your voice may be fine... you just need someone to show you how to use it... but, I won't be teaching you how to pull chest up to C5 , LOL... you will be learning what you NEED to learn.

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Killer... are you a student of TVS? Have you purchased "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0? I feel a bit sorry for you actually with your SLS story... I would like an opportunity to help you over the internet on skype lessons... I am not convinced that you have vocal problems as bad as you think... I would like ot hear it and work with you on it and there is a good chance... that you will surprise yourself. Your voice may be fine... you just need someone to show you how to use it... but, I won't be teaching you how to pull chest up to C5 , LOL... you will be learning what you NEED to learn.

Nah, I haven't gotten them, Rob. I think I need to save my money for doctors and speech therapists and basic needs right now. It's been 3 years, speaking hurts and I have constant pain, tension and spasms. I suspect it can't be solved through technique as it's here when I'm not speaking, but I'll consider a Skype lesson as if doctors and speech therapists, can't figure it out, you might have some insight. It feels physically wrecked though.

Actually Jonpall made an offer too, and maybe I'll try Skyping with him first. For now I need to get myself in gear and get more appointments setup soon. So raincheck.

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I believe being able to take the "oh" and "ay" sounds as high as C5 for men, in CVT overdrive, is because those 2 vowels have a higher frequency formant area (F2?). So you can align some of those lower harmonics at higher pitches.

Maybe Steven can straighten this out if it's of interest.

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I just meant , I don't like it... its not interesting to me. Its nothing anyone can't do. Other than the lyrics and song writing, I see little value in the singing here. Sorry...

For example, why is this song interesting to people? I mean honestly? The melody is basically "1-3-5-3-1"... over and over again... it like a nursery rhythm you would sing with a bunch of children. It has one modulation in the song and then back to "blah, blah..... blah, blah., blah, blah, blah"...

The song is weak, the melody is basically pedaling on the root, 3rd and the 5th, the singing is terrible, the guy was a drug addict and ruined an amazing opportunity for himself, his bandmates and his fans by killing himself and his hair is all matted out pretentiously , to try to make a statement... we are suppose to believe that Kurt Cobain can't take a shower and comb his hair? This isn't sincerity, this is pretention...

Anyways, I don't like it, but I'm happy for those that do.

Why this song is interesting to people? It is interesting to MANY people because it has a nice simple melody with a voice that express vulnerability and a simple lyric that people can relate to. Often, simple songs with few chords are the most genious songs (if you want to make money). A simple lyric that many people can relate to (singing in english) together with a nice simple melody are something to strive for if you want to have many fans. First, a simple nice ( and to find out what is "nice" is the tricky part)melody that get people´s attention so they start to listen and if the lyric is simple and easy to sing along with you definately have a success. In your opinion it may be weak and i respect that but you can´t deny the fact that it has many fans and that is an essential thing for many/most artists.

By the way, what do you think about Deep Purple´s "Smoke On The Water", Robert?, It has a very easy melody but is still one of the most famous hard rock songs ever. Another good example of a very simple song that even i could play on the guitar is "Seven Nation Army" by the White Stripes, sung all over the world, epecially on fotboll events. As a sidenote, i like both songs as i like the Nirvana song, but i also have a complex side and like Dream Theater for example, a band i truly beleive could be at the top charts if they wanted to but they chose a more complex side instead because that´s the music they love and i respect that too.

Kurt Cobain´s personal life and his character does not hinder me from listening to his music and thinking that it is very good music (most of it) and i do not think other´s do either. I was disgusted when i read Ozzy´s biography and found out that he chew off a dove´s head in one part but i still enjoy his music and continue to listen to it.

Peace and Love and sorry for my bad english.

PS I agree that Kurt Cobain does not sing very good technically, but i like his voice and i think it´s because of the rasp and the vulnerability that it express.

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Here I am doing a siren from C4 to C5, all in overdrive. You could say that I'm pulling chest up to the tenor C:

http://www.box.com/s/mfxomb3nqx2mdodnnb86

It's not that difficult if you know what you're doing. Still, I much prefer to use curbing when I get past my passagio.

Prety sure this is a B, and supporting it is cheating :P Mr Vedder just pushes things out his lungs.

Still I gotta say GJ, I find this is too demanding to use... Support gets really mashed.

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Why this song is interesting to people? It is interesting to MANY people because it has a nice simple melody with a voice that express vulnerability and a simple lyric that people can relate to. Often, simple songs with few chords are the most genious songs (if you want to make money). A simple lyric that many people can relate to (singing in english) together with a nice simple melody are something to strive for if you want to have many fans. First, a simple nice ( and to find out what is "nice" is the tricky part)melody that get people´s attention so they start to listen and if the lyric is simple and easy to sing along with you definately have a success. In your opinion it may be weak and i respect that but you can´t deny the fact that it has many fans and that is an essential thing for many/most artists.

By the way, what do you think about Deep Purple´s "Smoke On The Water", Robert?, It has a very easy melody but is still one of the most famous hard rock songs ever. Another good example of a very simple song that even i could play on the guitar is "Seven Nation Army" by the White Stripes, sung all over the world, epecially on fotboll events. As a sidenote, i like both songs as i like the Nirvana song, but i also have a complex side and like Dream Theater for example, a band i truly beleive could be at the top charts if they wanted to but they chose a more complex side instead because that´s the music they love and i respect that too.

Kurt Cobain´s personal life and his character does not hinder me from listening to his music and thinking that it is very good music (most of it) and i do not think other´s do either. I was disgusted when i read Ozzy´s biography and found out that he chew off a dove´s head in one part but i still enjoy his music and continue to listen to it.

Peace and Love and sorry for my bad english.

PS I agree that Kurt Cobain does not sing very good technically, but i like his voice and i think it´s because of the rasp and the vulnerability that it express.

Fine, good arguments... I guess it appeals to the masses of course... the very fact that it is commercially successful is its biggest merit in my opinion... but personally, its puts me to sleep.

Why do I love the song "smoke on the water"?... because it has full band behind it, organ and Ian Gillan can actually sing... it has range and melody to it... this Nirvana song is weak in my opinion.

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No Felipe, it's not a B. I re-checked. I remember doing that siren after stumming a C chord on my guitar. It must have been SLIGHTLY flat because my note is between B and C, but closer to C - I just checked with an online program. However, I've done the C many times before and it's the same thing. Also, I got it confirmed from a CVT expert that this was indeed in overdrive (which is essentially "pulling chest up to C5"). The reason it's possible is because of the vowel and because I'm using almost no air (good support), twanging a lot, opening the back of my mouth, making sure I have a lot of volume, etc. I didn't invent this, btw. And I don't understand what you mean by "supporting it is cheating". Are you talking about breath support or "supporting such a vocal technique"? And cheating how? Just wondering. Cheers.

p.s. again, I don't like to sing in that style that high up in pitch. Some people do, though. I just don't, at least not at the moment and I doubt I will. Respect.

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No Felipe, it's not a B. I re-checked. I remember doing that siren after stumming a C chord on my guitar. It must have been SLIGHTLY flat because my note is between B and C, but closer to C - I just checked with an online program. However, I've done the C many times before and it's the same thing. Also, I got it confirmed from a CVT expert that this was indeed in overdrive (which is essentially "pulling chest up to C5"). The reason it's possible is because of the vowel and because I'm using almost no air (good support), twanging a lot, opening the back of my mouth, making sure I have a lot of volume, etc. I didn't invent this, btw. And I don't understand what you mean by "supporting it is cheating". Are you talking about breath support or "supporting such a vocal technique"? And cheating how? Just wondering. Cheers.

p.s. again, I don't like to sing in that style that high up in pitch. Some people do, though. I just don't, at least not at the moment and I doubt I will. Respect.

Nope, not slightly flat, either its a B or it is nearly halfway flat.

But this does not matter, I was just joking. I meant that supporting in the context of singers who just screams things out, is almost cheating.

You know it as overdrive, some know it as belting, I know it simply as chest.

Yeah using it to record, maybe. Using it live, no way.

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Here I am doing a siren from C4 to C5, all in overdrive. You could say that I'm pulling chest up to the tenor C:

http://www.box.com/s/mfxomb3nqx2mdodnnb86

It's not that difficult if you know what you're doing. Still, I much prefer to use curbing when I get past my passagio.

JonPall, at approximately :07, you are bridging to your head voice... the rest of the phonation is just twanging real hard with a slightly higher larynx and more palette/teeth in the resonant mix. My ears don't hear this as belting at all... I just hear a good bridge with a brassy formant, medium to high larynx and extra twang.

That is head voice on top, not your chest voice. Its a cool sound, but that is a bridged maneuver to the head voice.

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At :07 is like an A4 - that's where I bridge into head too. I guess maybe CVT would call that overdrive. You've definitely crossed over into a what many would define as head voice on a CVT overdrive vowel. Sounds great.

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Yes, JonPall... it does sound great. Nice work!

Nice bridge, good connectivity in the head space.

Its a great, "belty" sound, excellent, but its not technically a real belt. Its twang in the head voice crafted to sound like a belt. Its cool.

JonPall, did you hear my recent octave sirens demo?

https://thevocaliststudio.box.com/shared/static/08f4mvveyt2j3o52s7bd.wma

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Thanks guys. What I know is that a couple of very good cvt guys have listened to that clip and said it was overdrive. Other vocal schools might call it head voice (or something else). I'm quite fine with that. The only thing I wanted to add is that almost always when I sing a C5, I use way less vocal weight than what I did in that clip. If you listen carefully to my clip, I'm not gradually reducing the vocal weight but gradually INCREASING it. And I was just doing it as a demo in that clip because almost ALWAYS I prefer to REDUCE the vocal weight as I go up in pitch. That means that I will sing with less volume, but really, because of the twang it still cuts through the mix quite fine. And it's not exactly low in volume but rather a bit over medium volume (messo forte usually).

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Btw. one of the reasons I tend not to use cvt terms too much when writing here is that I realize that not everyone knows that lingo and I don't think it's cool to use some lingo that people can't follow that well unless they buy some book. Not good. But I will use it sometimes if it saves writing time and especially if someone is asking about something and using those terms. Still, in those cases I prefer to also include a more general description. CVT has helped me but so have other vocal programs and other vocal coaches.

Robert, I understand what you mean about the open vs. closed vowels. I know that there are vocal schools who recommend either type. Personally I think each method gives a little different sound to one's high notes. I think that Geoff Tate is probably a good example of a singer that prefers open vowels. Lou Gramm is probably a singer who prefers vowels that are somewhere in between closed and open (on his high notes).

Me, when I vocalize, I very often use the open vowel Eh. I got that from Jamie Vendera and it just worked well for me. But when I sing songs, I tend to do something similar to Lou Gramm. And when I do Eh sirens, I quite often modify towards Uh on top, like you recommended recently. I think it makes it ever so less splatty. I do tend to use I (as in "sit") in place of Ee as opposed to the much more open Eh. And yeah, I lose a bit of volume that way - but I like the sound better (I find it to be "thicker" even though it has less volume) and I have enough twang to cut through the mix. Even so, I actually SOMETIMES use an Eh vowel in place of Ee.

To explain further, I would usually sing "land of the Fr-IIIIIII" - SOMETIMES sing "land of the Fr-EEEEhhh", and almost never "land of the Fr-eeee".

So what I'm saying is that I agree that using closed vowels (like Ee) isn't that good an idea if you want power in your high notes, but I think there IS value in using vowels that are not closed, not open, but somewhere in between - say a vowel like I (and Uh) because it's not as closed as Ee but not as open as Eh. So in a sense, I works like Uh - you slightly reduce the splattyness with it. And it's easier to get more cord closure with it (something I've heard from many coaches - I'm not referring to cvt coaches, btw.). The only thing is that you have to stick to medium volume so you can't get as loud as with an Eh vowel. But if you have enough twang, it will not matter, because twang will actually add to your volume and let your voice cut through the mix.

Hey Robert, those Eh to Uh modifications - is that a fairly recent addition to TVS? Perhaps something that came out of your sessions with Steven Fraser? Just guessing and wondering because I found it to be cool a while ago to realize that I was subconciously doing this modification myself on my sirens. One thing I find to help with this is to be concious of using medium volume at all times. In other words, I'm aware that I COULD sing louder. And I also remember the term vowel MODIFICATIONS - not vowel REPLACEMENTS. So I don't switch to Uh until it feels like it would ease some throat tension to do it. And it's usually in my passagio. It takes a bit of time to get the hang of this but it's worth it.

And Robert, you are very good at explanations, which is something a good teacher needs to have, obviously. Cool clip. Cheers.

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Here I am doing a siren from C4 to C5, all in overdrive. You could say that I'm pulling chest up to the tenor C:

http://www.box.com/s/mfxomb3nqx2mdodnnb86

It's not that difficult if you know what you're doing. Still, I much prefer to use curbing when I get past my passagio.

Jonpall, i am no expert, but i can hear a slight vowel modification at around 08 seconds from Eh (stay) to Ah (And). Maybe you go from Overdrive to Edge`?

PS If you guys really want to hear pulling chest i can show you :lol:

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