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Ramon

Eddie Vedder technique

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Robert I actually agree with you and disagree with some CVT people on this matter - I feel that the passagio DOES exist. I simply define it as the place where most people have a problem singing at (somewhere between D4 and G4 for men, I think). Almost all vocal schools deal with it by letting their students CHANGE their vocal configuration somehow, i.e. "bridge" by twanging, changing vowels, adding cry, or something like that.

However, there IS "this other way" to get past the passagio and that is to NOT CHANGE THE THROAT CONFIGURATION/VOCAL MODE AT ALL. But that only works if you modify all vowels to either Eh or Oh, INCREASE the volume as you go up AND increase twang, use almost NO air at all and finally, realize that this vocal mode, i.e. overdrive, has a pitch limit of C5 for men and Eb5 for women. This is not some urban legend. This has been proven countless times and with throat scoping, too.

Also note that even though I'm slightly increasing my twang and slightly raising my larynx as I go up on that overdrive siren, it doesn't mean that I'm switching into another vocal mode. I'm still really in the same mode as on the low notes - speak mode, chest voice or whatever you want to call it. Even though it might resonate in my head, partially or fully. And it has been shown that some people don't feel these chest/head sensations so in their cases, they need other imageries - even though the chest/head one is one of the best ones.

So like egg said - how can I be "bridging", if I'm staying in the same vocal mode at all times as I go past my passagio? Unless you define bridging as simply "travelling past your passagio".

And once more, I'm just saying that this seems to be POSSIBLE (i.e. this "overdrive" vocal mode) but I don't usually like to use it in my passagio or higher. I - "bridge" there - into what people call curbing or mixed voice. But I call it the awesome mode, just to be different. I bridge into awesome.

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But egg... be assured, on that overdrive siren that JonPall did up the C5, he bridged to his head voice.. I can clearly hear it.. you can also hear a small vowel modification ... it all happens at about :07.

He didn't think he was in his head voice... but he was. To me, I think that is a little bit concerning.

I agree, i would hope some more people could listen to that clip, "experts" or no experts, especially Steven Fraser.

Robert, whether or not I was in head voice or not in that "overdrive siren" doesn't concern me that much because it's a matter of definition. But if I give it some thought, it makes more sense to me to call it chest voice because it feels AND sounds EXACTLY like my chest voice - because I did not change my throat configuration/vocal mode AT ALL as I went up in pitch (and several vocal coaches who really know overdrive and the CVT modes inside and out have listened to that clip and confirmed that it was overdrive - and I can hear it myself). It might have resonated in my head - or even ass for that matter, but the SOUND is exactly like in my chest voice..

Jonpall, if you could hear that it is overdrive why would you hand it over to other vocal coaches to have a confirmation, i presume you are a vocal coach yourself since you have offered me vocal lessons. It seems you are a little uncertain on this matter.

"It might have resonated in my head - or even ass for that matter, but the SOUND is exactly like in my chest voice.." Is not that what many singers strive for, to have your head voice to sound like your chest voice, one seamless voice? At least i am.

Peace And Love

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Olem, I let other people who are great at detecting modes hear my clip because I don't consider me to be a perfect singer at all, know everything and hear everything. Would you rather want me to be closed minded and just decide that the clip was in overdrive no matter what other people say? So several good CVT people have said that it was overdrive and Robert says that it was twang mode (TVS). I'm fine with both conclusions if they work for you. I happen to disagree with Robert on this one but I think arguing over such a thing is really nitpicking on details. It's silly when people start to argue about the little things when they agree on the majority of things.

"Is not that what many singers strive for, to have your head voice to sound like your chest voice, one seamless voice? At least i am. "

Sure, but there are several ways to accomplish that.

The curbing way might be my favorite at the moment, but the problem with that is that you have to use medium volume so it could be problematic to use live with the rock band if you have a bad P.A. where you won't be heard unless you sing extremely loud. Still, I think lots of people manage to use it live.

The overdrive (chest voice) and edge (twang mode but with as much volume as you can) ways are louder but they sometimes take more effort and have a type of "shouty" sound that sometimes just sounds bad in some type of music. You don't always want to SHOUT out your lyrics, right?

And a pure twang mode like "MLN" or TVS twang, where you bridge fairly early, can work great, too, but it does tend to give that Geoff Tate sound and some people LOVE that guy and I've never liked it that much. Respected it, but not loved it. Don't try to kill me guys if that bothers you. I'm a brazilian Jiu Jitsu coach and can counter your Snake Kung Fu faster than you can say "UFC 1-4".

From this, one might argue that you shouldn't worry too much about vocal modes at all and rather adhere to more general principles like breath support, twang and open throat (which are central to many vocal programs, btw., cvt being one of them if you guys take the time to check the book). The vocal modes can be helpful to solve certain things but when it comes down to it, I suggest that you try to simply sing your heart out. (sniff, sniff). Of course, if you run into some technical problems, it helps to have some knowledge about the voice and the modes. Cheers.

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Olem, I let other people who are great at detecting modes hear my clip because I don't consider me to be a perfect singer at all, know everything and hear everything. Would you rather want me to be closed minded and just decide that the clip was in overdrive no matter what other people say? So several good CVT people have said that it was overdrive and Robert says that it was twang mode (TVS). I'm fine with both conclusions if they work for you. I happen to disagree with Robert on this one but I think arguing over such a thing is really nitpicking on details. It's silly when people start to argue about the little things when they agree on the majority of things.

"Is not that what many singers strive for, to have your head voice to sound like your chest voice, one seamless voice? At least i am. "

Sure, but there are several ways to accomplish that.

The curbing way might be my favorite at the moment, but the problem with that is that you have to use medium volume so it could be problematic to use live with the rock band if you have a bad P.A. where you won't be heard unless you sing extremely loud. Still, I think lots of people manage to use it live.

The overdrive (chest voice) and edge (twang mode but with as much volume as you can) ways are louder but they sometimes take more effort and have a type of "shouty" sound that sometimes just sounds bad in some type of music. You don't always want to SHOUT out your lyrics, right?

And a pure twang mode like "MLN" or TVS twang, where you bridge fairly early, can work great, too, but it does tend to give that Geoff Tate sound and some people LOVE that guy and I've never liked it that much. Respected it, but not loved it. Don't try to kill me guys if that bothers you. I'm a brazilian Jiu Jitsu coach and can counter your Snake Kung Fu faster than you can say "UFC 1-4".

From this, one might argue that you shouldn't worry too much about vocal modes at all and rather adhere to more general principles like breath support, twang and open throat (which are central to many vocal programs, btw., cvt being one of them if you guys take the time to check the book). The vocal modes can be helpful to solve certain things but when it comes down to it, I suggest that you try to simply sing your heart out. (sniff, sniff). Of course, if you run into some technical problems, it helps to have some knowledge about the voice and the modes. Cheers.

Confused here, what I know as head voice is only lower on volume around passaggio, it can be as loud as to be plain painfull to stand next to someone doing it. Its surely louder than chest, even if you scream on it.

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jonpall - the definition of head voice that I go with and that I've posted about is which muscle is the dominant pitch control muscle. This is to me the best way to define it - not "where" the resonance is felt. I like this definition the best because it is concise and not open to subjectivity. It is when the CT muscle takes over and the tilting starts. At this point, usually, the TA relaxes a bit, and the folds thin out. You get less overtones, and it doesn't sound like chest anymore. However, you can learn to keep the TA activated and keep the same relative thicker folds giving you the same chesty sound. Thats what I've been doing. It sounds and feels like chest. It is the "single voice" that I've been talking about. Within this definition you are going into head because you are letting the CT take over.

CVT does not get into this stuff. But even in their neutral audio example (F arpeggio), you can hear where the guy goes into head at F4.

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Felipe, then we are clearly using the same term(s) for different things. One fairly easy way to understand what I mean is to get the CVT book and perhaps book a lesson with a CVT coach. I could try to make one recording where I sing a Bb4 or so on all vocal modes without a compressor and with equal distance from the mic, if I have time. Perhaps that would help.

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jonpall - the definition of head voice that I go with and that I've posted about is which muscle is the dominant pitch control muscle. This is to me the best way to define it - not "where" the resonance is felt.

Geno, then you, I and CVT agree with that, believe it or not. Alot of it has to do with how "weighty" your voice "feels".

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Yeah, that's how I look at it. It all starts with the folds and how thick they are. That is where the wave shape is created and how strong the overtones are from the very start. From that point on up, we can shape the resonant cavities, and how we do that can also affect the vibrations going back down - like when you get feedback on a guitar - the amplified signal helps to vibrate the strings again.

And if you feel a "chesty" sound up high, you may not be in "chest voice" the way I defined it, but basically feels and sounds like it. I just like that single voice approach. From there you can branch off to different vowels and modes at any spot along the way. That's what I've been doing - strengthening the "core" so there is consistent fold vibration from low to high.

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Geno, do you normally sing with a similar volume as when you speak? I've found that curbing seems to work best with that volume (not surprisingly, since that's one of its rules). If I use much more volume than that, I tend to fall into overdrive (which can be not that bad sometimes - sometimes I'll experiment a lot with overdrive and edge for a few weeks, actually. Drives the neighbours crazy, though.).

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jonpall - the definition of head voice that I go with and that I've posted about is which muscle is the dominant pitch control muscle. This is to me the best way to define it - not "where" the resonance is felt. I like this definition the best because it is concise and not open to subjectivity. It is when the CT muscle takes over and the tilting starts. At this point, usually, the TA relaxes a bit, and the folds thin out. You get less overtones, and it doesn't sound like chest anymore. However, you can learn to keep the TA activated and keep the same relative thicker folds giving you the same chesty sound. Thats what I've been doing. It sounds and feels like chest. It is the "single voice" that I've been talking about. Within this definition you are going into head because you are letting the CT take over.

CVT does not get into this stuff. But even in their neutral audio example (F arpeggio), you can hear where the guy goes into head at F4.

Thank you Geno! Spot on.

For the sake of our debate JonPall, what ever it is your doing or you want to call it, at :07, I can hear your bridge. I can hear physiological changes that I hear everyday with my more advanced students. And of course, just because it feels and sounds like "chest", that most certainly does not mean it is... after all, that is the purpose of learning how to do this trick... is to create the illusion to the listener that your in your chest voice (by the traditional metaphorical definition), but your not. Something you did a great job at... but it doesn't mean you... pulled chest to a C5 or that you didn't make some high tech adjustments to your configuration in a 10th of a second to get the job done.

You can change vowels, you can mess with the vocal modes, you can play with different colors and different masses sure! ... but you cannot make the required CT/TA coordinated movement and formant shifts stop happening. Its impossible... if you did, we would of heard you shouting at the top of your lungs and it would of hurt and sounded bad... You are a trained illusionist JonPall, but I think you have even mystified yourself to some degree... LOL.

Its a great demonstration of "command and control" of vocal modes, vowels, weight/mass, etc... but it doesn't change the underlying physiological and acoustic modifications that have to happen to sing a C5 like that.

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Well, Jonpall, i would not have cared so much if i have not read so much on this forum and the CVT forum on what the cvt modes stand for :D .When i listen to your clip I do not find it shouty and i do not find you to have a clear Eh vowel on top, things that i have read are present when you sing in the overdrive mode (well there is another vowel the Oh vowel too but i cannot hear that either). It also sounds that you could go higher, which the CVT says is impossible, but this is just a feeling. I have checked my ears not long time ago and there was nothing wrong with them the doctor said :) .

I want to understand how to sing high powerful notes without straining or cracking, like you did in your clip and i am not interested in nitpicking or trying to assert myself (IF you think i am). I think the clip sounded awesome and when you say that you sang it entirely in your chest and in overdrive i got confused at first. Many people in this forum say that if you want to sound good on higher notes you must bridge to your head early, much earlier than C5. And alot of people also have said that i sound constricted and not so good because i am pulling chest up in my higher range. So my conclusion is, they are propably right that you must bridge to your head to achieve great sounded higher notes. At first your clip and your statement made me confused but when i listened closer i found that my conclusion held.

Jonpall, it is good that you consult "experts" on what mode it is, but that in itself does not prove your thesis, facts does and when you mention that you have consulted "experts" on this matter it works the other way around instead and makes your statement sound weaker to my ears. I am sorry if it sounds harsh and rude but that is not my intention.

One other thing is: Are you saying that overdrive could be in your head voice?:

""Is not that what many singers strive for, to have your head voice to sound like your chest voice, one seamless voice? At least i am. "

Sure, but there are several ways to accomplish that.

The curbing way might be my favorite at the moment, but the problem with that is that you have to use medium volume so it could be problematic to use live with the rock band if you have a bad P.A. where you won't be heard unless you sing extremely loud. Still, I think lots of people manage to use it live.

The overdrive (chest voice) and edge (twang mode but with as much volume as you can) ways are louder but they sometimes take more effort and have a type of "shouty" sound that sometimes just sounds bad in some type of music. You don't always want to SHOUT out your lyrics, right?"

Oh boy, it certainly would make things easier if it could (overdrive be in head voice).

Well, i respect your point of view Jonpall and i hope you are not targetting me now, mostly i find your posts very helpful and i certainly appreciate your help on my contributions at the "review and critique".

I do not beleive that your clip is overdrive, but i think for me, to develop as a singer i think i would have to skip CVT and their ideas, i hope all of you CVT users do not take this the wrong way, i am sure it works for alot of people.

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i'm just gonna stick my head in real quick and say i have found as you get more advanced (and physically stronger) it seems like all one register. a muscle memory seems to take over, a placement memory seems to take over, and in conjuction with the right amount of support (and that amount can be very physically demanding at times) you sail up to c5 with power and resonance.

although i've only had 4 lessons with frisell i sang for him and got confirmation that i am singing correctly and safely. according to frisell, the key is the development of a head voice ramp utilizing the vowel "oo" and building up the head voice to such a point that the chest voice is invited to join up with the head voice creating a blend of both voices.

but of course there's more than one way to skin a cat, i'm just finding this works really well for me because i have learned that i have the type of voice that requires more air pressure to generate tone than perhaps another singer.

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i'm just gonna stick my head in real quick and say i have found as you get more advanced (and physically stronger) it seems like all one register. a muscle memory seems to take over, a placement memory seems to take over, and in conjuction with the right amount of support (and that amount can be very physically demanding at times) you sail up to c5 with power and resonance.

although i've only had 4 lessons with frisell i sang for him and got confirmation that i am singing correctly and safely. according to frisell, the key is the development of a head voice ramp utilizing the vowel "oo" and building up the head voice to such a point that the chest voice is invited to join up with the head voice creating a blend of both voices.

but of course there's more than one way to skin a cat, i'm just finding this works really well for me because i have learned that i have the type of voice that requires more air pressure to generate tone than perhaps another singer.

This is really good thinking. For chronic blowers, it might be best to find a style of singing that works for us, rather than try to completely change our habits. :D

Everything you've talked about this technique sounds like it would have been right up my alley. I was definitely a blower, and the way I did it was comfortable, but once my voice habits changed, it became dangerous.

I have a feeling there is a pretty good margin of error (air, ha) between cord closure and the amount of air you can safely do but if you do it wrong or (ignorantly make changes) it puts you at risk.

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This is really good thinking. For chronic blowers, it might be best to find a style of singing that works for us, rather than try to completely change our habits. :D

Everything you've talked about this technique sounds like it would have been right up my alley. I was definitely a blower, and the way I did it was comfortable, but once my voice habits changed, it became dangerous.

I have a feeling there is a pretty good margin of error (air, ha) between cord closure and the amount of air you can safely do but if you do it wrong or (ignorantly make changes) it puts you at risk.

what's your definition of a chronic blower? i'm not one to blow a lot of air past my folds.

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what's your definition of a chronic blower? i'm not one to blow a lot of air past my folds.

Someone that blows more than is physically necessary. Maybe you don't. I haven't heard you yet, Bob.

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Hey TMV Forum Members! Speaking of Eddie Vedder, I found this rare bootleg recording of Metallica doing a tribute to Eddie Vedder, its great!

https://thevocaliststudio.box.com/shared/static/ymjolvio8ms8rbpchn1n.mp3

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Olem, I don't take it the wrong way and I'm not offended. It's cool, man, ok? :) . But just note that you're not a CVT expert, and CVT experts, plus myself have all said that that clip was in overdrive, all the way through. I guess what was confusing you is the fact that many people don't realize that overdrive higher than A4 or so really needs to have lots of twang. Not as much as edge but still a lot of it. And when I'm singing pretty loud I often make a gradual switch from overdrive to edge at some point before C5 (maybe at A4 or so - depends on the song).

In many ways I like the idea of "one voice" better than to split it up in vocal modes. However, the vocal modes can be a helpful tool sometimes to fix vocal problems. It goes without saying that if you don't understand these modes very well, they will simply confuse you and even piss you off :)

Btw. recently I've gone back to experimenting with singing pretty loudly. Maybe at 90% of what I'm capable of. I think that lots of rock singers, even rock tenors did/do this. It does take more support than singing with medium volume but I think the audience can FEEL the increased intensity, especially when you do it live. I think it can be helpful to be able to sing at all levels of volume. And I've always dug Vendera's idea of always keeping a focus in the soft palate, plus supporting well - therefore creating an opportunity for a unified voice.

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Olem, I don't take it the wrong way and I'm not offended. It's cool, man, ok? :) . But just note that you're not a CVT expert, and CVT experts, plus myself have all said that that clip was in overdrive, all the way through. I guess what was confusing you is the fact that many people don't realize that overdrive higher than A4 or so really needs to have lots of twang. Not as much as edge but still a lot of it. And when I'm singing pretty loud I often make a gradual switch from overdrive to edge at some point before C5 (maybe at A4 or so - depends on the song).

In many ways I like the idea of "one voice" better than to split it up in vocal modes. However, the vocal modes can be a helpful tool sometimes to fix vocal problems. It goes without saying that if you don't understand these modes very well, they will simply confuse you and even piss you off :)

Btw. recently I've gone back to experimenting with singing pretty loudly. Maybe at 90% of what I'm capable of. I think that lots of rock singers, even rock tenors did/do this. It does take more support than singing with medium volume but I think the audience can FEEL the increased intensity, especially when you do it live. I think it can be helpful to be able to sing at all levels of volume. And I've always dug Vendera's idea of always keeping a focus in the soft palate, plus supporting well - therefore creating an opportunity for a unified voice.

Great that you are not offended ( i did not think you were either). That is right that i am no expert, but i do not have to be either, it works perfectly well to just use your ears to hear a vowel modification.

Interesting, the last thing you mention here Jonpall, i think there lies some truth in it . I know some very good musicians here in Brazil and had the opportunity to sing karaoke in front of a real band not a karaoke machine. I sang two rock songs and first i tried to sing with a moderate volume and just trying to feel relaxed, after this one a band member said "hey man, that was good, but try to not hold back so much" . After this i just blasted off "Born to be wild" by Steppenwolf and i got a great respons.

Peace and Love

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Cool story, Olem! Yeah, sometimes more volume can be good. You just have to make sure that the focus is in the soft palate and the throat stays relaxed, i.e. that you're not pushing. And train a lot! Full voiced sirens seem to help for that.

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This thread was a interesting read which went in a lot of directions. From Eddie Vedder's singing to the battle of nature vs. nurture, to conflict between CVT and TVS terminology :D Bravo

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That tribute was funny, Robert. It reminds me of something I heard, watching Metal Evolution documentary. The anthropologist was covering the grunge era and collecting view points from metal musicians. The called the grunge singers "yawrl" singers, to imitate the movement of the mouth to resonate that particular sound. They also called them underbite singers, and I about spewed my beverage through my nose.

I swear upon any one's bible, when I first heard "Higher" by Creed, I thought Pearl Jam had released a new song.

I expect that will offend some people, least of all, Scott Stapp, who is still trying to live that down.

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